Collers Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 You MUST enter the Thieves Guild to be able to do the main quest, which involves framing an innocent sales man into jail. I didn't want to do that! I finished the MQ without ever joining the Thieves' Guild. What part of the MQ are you referring to? When you get sent to talk to the guy in Riften, if you discuss anything except the main quest with him, then it leads you off to rob the other market stall as a "test" to join the theives guild. I must agree with you all here, that this game really does limit choices. You really do get very few. Worse even than that is the fact that if you want to play an honourable character, then you cut your content almost in half. For a game which is supposed to be immersive role play, this is really quite a huge flaw. I imagine there will be some more 'good guy' material added in all the mods to come, and it seems to me that after creating the scenery of the world, Beth likes to leave players to create their own game. Interesting concept... The one faction that I haven't played is the mages guild, as I felt like a complete cheat that no1 questioned my 100 magika and big sword. Do you turn out to be a good guy / bad guy / have a choice in this? And would anyone have even noticed if I had played on and (i guess you become arch-mage in the end) sat on the throne with a sword...? Collers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohdude Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 You MUST enter the Thieves Guild to be able to do the main quest, which involves framing an innocent sales man into jail. I didn't want to do that! I finished the MQ without ever joining the Thieves' Guild. What part of the MQ are you referring to? When you get sent to talk to the guy in Riften, if you discuss anything except the main quest with him, then it leads you off to rob the other market stall as a "test" to join the theives guild. I must agree with you all here, that this game really does limit choices. You really do get very few. Worse even than that is the fact that if you want to play an honourable character, then you cut your content almost in half. For a game which is supposed to be immersive role play, this is really quite a huge flaw. I imagine there will be some more 'good guy' material added in all the mods to come, and it seems to me that after creating the scenery of the world, Beth likes to leave players to create their own game. Interesting concept... The one faction that I haven't played is the mages guild, as I felt like a complete cheat that no1 questioned my 100 magika and big sword. Do you turn out to be a good guy / bad guy / have a choice in this? And would anyone have even noticed if I had played on and (i guess you become arch-mage in the end) sat on the throne with a sword...? Collers Yeah,it limits your choices,but,it's the THIEVES GUILD after all.IF YOU DON'T WANT TO ROB PEOPLE,WHY ARE YOU JOINING "THIEVES GUILD" in the first place? >_> College of Winterhold and bards college don't force you to rob or kill,you do kill a guy in the College storyline,I'm workin' on the Bards atm,but trust me,it's for the greater good.. *spoilers BELOW* You kill that guy to save the whole town and the College. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mercami Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 The Thieves Guild in past Elder Scrolls games (at least Morrowind and Oblivion) have been more honorable than other criminal elements. In Morrowind there was a line of very Robin Hoodish quests. The Gray Fox thief story line in Oblivion was epic and I loved it. For me the thieves guild was never about making gold, there are plenty of legal ways that are easier to earn more than you'll ever need. It was more about finding that rare object that I, as the hero would put to better use than than it just sitting on someone's shelf. <spoilers to follow> I haven't yet finished the thieves guild in Skyrim but it just doesn't seem as much fun being under the thumb of Maven Black-Briar. It's very much like Markarth to me where the Silver-Blood family controls the city and I can't do anything about it to help the people that live there. On a side note about being forced to join the thieves guild in Skyrim for the main quest, if you drop the ring you are supposed to steal you can tell him you lost it. Then pick up the ring and give it back to the owner (by pickpocketing it back). He'll then give you the information you need and you don't join the guild untill you go and meet him in the ratway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CptTrollahkiin Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 (edited) The only way to get out of that house is to kill the vigilant. He attacks you if you don't attack first, so it is self-defense. And later on, when you are really required to do a bad thing in order to complete that questline, nobody forces you to do that. Just leave the quest unfinished. As for the "mercy" animation, it is a bit out of place. However, you can always let them recuperate (a galant thing to do, like when knights let their enemies pick up their swords) and treat the rest of the fight, when they continue attacking you, as self-defense. While it is true that you are required to become a werewolf in order to finish the Companion's questline, you don't have to stay a werewolf, plus you also heal the companion's leader of lycanthropy. I suppose that Daedra summoning staff can be sold? If not, throw it away ("R" on PC when having it selected in your inventory screen) if it annoys you. It seems that, regarding some quests, there are only the "Daedra servant" and "pretend-to-be Daedra servant" options, but then the latter (or leaving the quest open) seems to be the "good guy" option. This is not Star Wars. :wink: Edited January 27, 2012 by CptTrollahkiin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galadrew Posted January 27, 2012 Author Share Posted January 27, 2012 The only way to get out of that house is to kill the vigilant. when you are really required to do a bad thing in order to complete that questline, nobody forces you to do that. Just leave the quest unfinished. Just leave the quests unfinished? Easy for you to say. That's exactly what I'm doing with quite a few quest lines that try to force me to be evil. But I feel I'm missing out on a lot of content that I paid for simply because I refuse to be an a**hole. I feel these quests were designed by an a**hole, for players who want to role play an a**hole. And it's no skin off anyone's back if the game has more choices. We're not talking about taking out anything. The choice of being either good or evil is not a minor thing for an RPG game. I've been playing RPGs for a long time and I've always assumed that as a given. Bethesda dropped the ball big time on this one but I haven't gone anywhere to whine because it's too late for Bethesda to do anything about it. I came and posted this request here hoping that some people in the modding community might agree that this is a worthy project to pursue. It's probably true that it would require a great amount of work to fix this problem if it's doable at all. Someone who's more knowledgeable than me in this subject can say more authoritatively. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sucrilhus Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 (edited) You MUST enter the Thieves Guild to be able to do the main quest, which involves framing an innocent sales man into jail. I didn't want to do that! I finished the MQ without ever joining the Thieves' Guild. What part of the MQ are you referring to? Yeah, my mistake. You don't really join the "Thieves' Guild" but you still have to frame the poor merchant (by placing a stolen ring in his pocket) so Brynjolf would tell you where Esbern is. EDIT: ------------------- On a side note about being forced to join the thieves guild in Skyrim for the main quest, if you drop the ring you are supposed to steal you can tell him you lost it. Then pick up the ring and give it back to the owner (by pickpocketing it back). He'll then give you the information you need and you don't join the guild untill you go and meet him in the ratway. I had no idea I could do this.... I'll do it next times. My point stands for the matter which they should just allow me to persuade him into telling where Esbern is. Edited January 27, 2012 by Sucrilhus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mercami Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 If they give us they same kind of tools we had in the Morrowind and Oblivion construction set it can be fixed I'm sure. The hardest part (I think) would be voice acting and having it stay true to the feel of the game, and making sure it's of the same quality. I think it would be easiest to mod if it was broken down into smaller mods that fix one group of quests at a time, for example. Dark BrotherhoodDaedricThieves Guild/RiftenForsworn/Silver-Blood/Markarth So rather than one mod that tries to fix it all at once they could be finished one at a time or even finished by different modders. I know there must be a lot of people who feel the same way we do about the lack of good guy options it'll just be a matter of working with the community so we're not working on many versions of mods that try to do the same thing. I've spent lots of time Modding Morrowind and some time with Oblivion, mostly doing personal house mods for myself but I have touched up a few quest mods to change them to my personal taste and a custom race mod for my character. I've never released anything to the public or been involved in the modding community before because I've always bought the games years/months after they were released and there were already plenty of more talented people working on mods. So this is first time I'll have a chance to get involved in modding right from the start! :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daniel3267 Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 Just a few things to clear up any confusion, and a few observations. As far as the thieves guild is concerned you never have to talk to Brynjolf at all, or once you do ignore him, either way head strait into the Ratway and talk to the bartender in the Ragged Flagon and continue the quest that way. As to the Deadric Quests as a good character, I look at it as collecting these items to keep them out of others hands, and if my character has to give up some morality for the greater good then that's the sacrifice. The other thing is it's not about the developer's being jerks and making you go evil it's about moral grey areas and forcing you to make tough decisions, you can either do them all and see all the content, or you can choose not to based on your character and miss some things but you should feel good that you made the right choice. It's real easy to second guess the Developer's and say they should have done this or that, but with what resources they had they designed the game the best they felt they could. You can't be everything to everybody, So you try to be the best of all things combined to as many people as possible. This isn't Mass Effect or Dragon Age, yes both those games have lots of depth as far as story and Character choice goes, but are limited in scope as far as sandbox open world exploration, the opposite can be said for TES Games. I enjoy both for different reasons and try to recognize and except some of those limitations so that I can enjoy the game. Just my twocents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galadrew Posted January 27, 2012 Author Share Posted January 27, 2012 (edited) if my character has to give up some morality for the greater good then that's the sacrifice. There have been many great evil leaders in the world who have used this argument as justification for their plans of genocide. Such logic is not acceptable to a Paladin as it indicates you've already become morally corrupted and, in the end, it totally defeats the purpose of trying to play a good character. You also seem to think that giving the choice of playing good or evil is a minor consideration in game design. That is an omission of such magnitude, that it can't be justified with a simple "we can't give everything to everyone". Edited January 27, 2012 by Galadrew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JanusForbeare Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 When you get sent to talk to the guy in Riften, if you discuss anything except the main quest with him, then it leads you off to rob the other market stall as a "test" to join the theives guild. You don't really join the "Thieves' Guild" but you still have to frame the poor merchant (by placing a stolen ring in his pocket) so Brynjolf would tell you where Esbern is. Delphine tells you to search in the ratway, so you don't need Brynjolf's help to find Esbern. Your quest marker/journal may direct you to the thieves' guild, but if you simply follow Delphine's advice you can avoid interacting with them entirely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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