skyrim vs oblivion

[Lachdonin]

Perhaps I can shed some light on this issue, friend.

 

While it's true that one isn't limited in progression by his job, it would take time for him or her to learn a completely different one, no? Months if the new one is related to his current, years if it is not. In this way, it makes no sense that someone who spends all his time practicing spells and enhancing his intelligence would suddenly be able to pick up a sword and expect to be as good as a trained warrior.

 

The job system was restrictive, yes, but why would that not make sense? If my background before the story begins is that I was a mathematician, I don't expect to spend a week reading biology, then ace the MCAT. Yes, you're not free to change everything about yourself at the drop of a hat, but when has that ever been the case?

 

Further, though one irl won't be able to track how strong he gets linearly through stats, at least he gets stronger at what he practices. In Skyrim, I can spend all of my time shooting arrows, but that will somehow make me more durable and better at picking locks? That's a deprivation of the RP experience if I've ever seen one. No, my sense of myself is not high enough to know that I'm a certain level of strength, but at least I know I'll be able to hit harder than someone weaker than me. In Skyrim, a mage can hit as hard as a warrior if he has enough perks in the necessary tree.

 

Not to say I am against the perk system. No, what's wrong here is the stripping away of the many stats that informed you how your character was progressing (i.e, how far he'd gone in his role). It makes sense that if I jump around a lot, I should be more athletic. It makes sense that if I only use my fists, I should be better at fist fighting. It makes sense that if I spend all day lifting weights, I should be stronger than the pansy mage that lives next door.

 

Are listed stats the best simulation of an RPG experience? No, of course not, but they're what's possible with the current tech. Problem with Skyrim is that we don't get rid of listed stats; we get a simplified stat system that takes more immersion away than it adds.

 

See, now THIS is what we need more of around here. A calm, well thought out, rational post the likes of which i normally need to go to 40k Online to get. Kudos to you, my friend.

 

Adressing the issue, however, i would like to first point out that a Mage cannot hit as hard as a Warrior without extensivly training in weapons because you require particular skill levels to unlock partiular perks. Thus, said mage would have to be at least as skilled as the aforementioned warrior in order to hit as hard. With, in my mind, is appropriate.

 

However, i do agree that there are obvious issues with the leveling system. The lockpicking and durability are representitive of that. As i said, the system isn't refined, and as such there are going to be some glaring issues. Lets face it, it took 50 years for Heredity and Natural Selection to be conglomerated into Evolution, so hammering out the details of an engenious system takes some work. Still, i think the classless system is infinately superior to the classic system. I do tend to think that the 'blank slate' thing is an issue to be addressed, and would like the ability to pick from pre-set backstories (ala Mass Effect/Dragon Age) which would influance your starting stats, but again, refinement.

 

Moving on to the whole skill learning issue. It's important to bear in mind that the skill progression in the game is hardly realistic. It's explained away as a trait of Heroic figures, or a timescale, and i think these are both appropriate notions. A normal person could not sit out in a field and master throwing fireballs in a few days, even if he was magically inclined to begin with. Our characters are neither normal, nor can we consider the flow of time in game to be accurate. The skill gain rate is for gameplay purposes, which one must admit doesnt factor nearly as profoundly into RP as, say, skill restrictions. As such i think the 'retraining' arguement falls flat.

 

The stats, i admit, i do somewhat accept as a loss, but the old system of implementation was all about min-maxing and not about roleplay at all anyway. A better system for stats would be something similar to, say, Heroes Quest, where stats progress along with skills. Your Strength increases as you fight and 'exercise', your endurance goes up as you take damage and run, your intelegence goes up as you cast spells and read, etc. Giving the player control over what stats he increses is not Roleplaying, its meta-gaming.

 

There are issues with the new system, and there is always room to improve. Still, i think the new one has a much, much greater RP value, and infinately more potential, than the old.

[Dukkah]

See, now THIS is what we need more of around here. A calm, well thought out, rational post the likes of which i normally need to go to 40k Online to get. Kudos to you, my friend.

 

Adressing the issue, however, i would like to first point out that a Mage cannot hit as hard as a Warrior without extensivly training in weapons because you require particular skill levels to unlock partiular perks. Thus, said mage would have to be at least as skilled as the aforementioned warrior in order to hit as hard. With, in my mind, is appropriate.

 

However, i do agree that there are obvious issues with the leveling system. The lockpicking and durability are representitive of that. As i said, the system isn't refined, and as such there are going to be some glaring issues. Lets face it, it took 50 years for Heredity and Natural Selection to be conglomerated into Evolution, so hammering out the details of an engenious system takes some work. Still, i think the classless system is infinately superior to the classic system. I do tend to think that the 'blank slate' thing is an issue to be addressed, and would like the ability to pick from pre-set backstories (ala Mass Effect/Dragon Age) which would influance your starting stats, but again, refinement.

 

Moving on to the whole skill learning issue. It's important to bear in mind that the skill progression in the game is hardly realistic. It's explained away as a trait of Heroic figures, or a timescale, and i think these are both appropriate notions. A normal person could not sit out in a field and master throwing fireballs in a few days, even if he was magically inclined to begin with. Our characters are neither normal, nor can we consider the flow of time in game to be accurate. The skill gain rate is for gameplay purposes, which one must admit doesnt factor nearly as profoundly into RP as, say, skill restrictions. As such i think the 'retraining' arguement falls flat.

 

The stats, i admit, i do somewhat accept as a loss, but the old system of implementation was all about min-maxing and not about roleplay at all anyway. A better system for stats would be something similar to, say, Heroes Quest, where stats progress along with skills. Your Strength increases as you fight and 'exercise', your endurance goes up as you take damage and run, your intelegence goes up as you cast spells and read, etc. Giving the player control over what stats he increses is not Roleplaying, its meta-gaming.

 

There are issues with the new system, and there is always room to improve. Still, i think the new one has a much, much greater RP value, and infinately more potential, than the old.

 

I must concede to most, if not all of your points, and am glad to see our views on the matter don't differ as much as it might appear. Nonetheless, I find myself with a deep sense of loss at this point in the development of TES series. Though I agree that the potential of this stats system is far greater than the more traditional one, I fear that's not the intention. Couldn't the same shift in the leveling system have been accomplished without abolishing governing stats? Though I agree that retraining must be streamlined to fit the scope and duration of a video game, does that mean we have to lose a definite sense of our strengths and weaknesses?

 

I suppose these questions touch on my fear that when Beth abolished the class system, they did so in order to market Skyrim as 'an rpg without rpg', that is, an RPG without the elements that make it unappealing to broader segments of the gaming world, but nonetheless make it an RPG (complex stats, consequences for choosing a certain path, the inability to master everything). I realize that it's an often abused accusation, but the main reason I prefer the Oblivion system to Skyrim's is that the latter reeks of simplification.

 

Though again, you are correct is saying this system has not been fleshed out, I wonder if such fleshing would align the game more toward a development of the notion of RPG, or the abandonment of that notion altogether. Now such a fundamental shift in the way characters level as you mentioned in your Heroes Quest example (a game I haven't had the pleasure of playing but am now curious about) would indeed be a great improvement. Whether older TES games or this latest one, it would seem we can't escape the meta nature of leveling. A shift toward a more role-based leveling system, as you alluded to, would require a more fundamental shift than the addition or subtraction of stats. Thanks for opening my eyes to that.

 

Though thinking about it makes me feel worse about what we were given in Skyrim...

 

EDIT: Dotting I's and crossing T's (read: grammar corrections).

Edited February 1, 2012 by Dukkah

[Lachdonin]

I suppose these questions touch on my fear that when Beth abolished the class system, they did so in order to market Skyrim as 'an rpg without rpg', that is, an RPG without the elements that make it unappealing to broader segments of the gaming world, but nonetheless make it an RPG (complex stats, consequences for choosing a certain path, the inability to master everything). I realize that it's an often abused accusation, but the main reason I prefer the Oblivion system to Skyrim's is that the latter reeks of simplification.

 

I'd like to point out that Oblivion and Morrowind, in fact, were worse in regards to the bolded and underlined section than Skyrim is. It was not uncommon, after many hours of gameplay, for characters in both Morrowind and Oblivion to have 100 in each skill and 100 in each stat. You could indeed master everything, and could do it in a way that eventually invalidated your class anyway. In this particular way, Skyrim's perk system is much more RPG than Morrowind of Oblivion, becaus you only get 80ish perk points, and there are over 200 choices.

 

I do understand your concern, however, about the increased simplification of the game. The Journal/Compass system are a perfect example of this, both catering to a casual playerbase which doesn't even care to read the journal. Bethesda has also been known to jump ship on some great ideas for no apparent reason, which gives one some trepidation about whether or not they will develop the new leveling system further. An example of this about face can be seen easily in character design, with the almost crippling low amount of choices. Don't get me wrong, i like the physiological differance between the races, and think the Argonians are looking better than ever, but Oblivion allowed you to do so much in character design. Skyrim's barely above Morrowind in that regard. This aboutface on variety is one which instills justifiable concern.

 

They've also fallen off the bandwagon on many other RPG components, such as decent characters and choice. In both regards, they should be watching what Bioware does, as even with SWtOR there are real, developed characters and choices which actuall impact your gameplay.

 

I suppose we'll jsut have to see what Bethesda does. As it stands, they sit poised between two potential outcomes. One leads to creating the best RPG dynamic we have seen since Dungeons and Dragons first came out. The second leads to Bioshock in a classic fantasy world. I remains cautiously optimisitc that they will push towards the former.

[NordicMist]

I still can't understand claims like this. How is having arbitrary skill-sets forced on you (classes) and managing more arbitrary numbers (stats) more RP than freeform development?

 

I said "Skyrim doesn't feel like an RPG ... plus, Oblivion is based on stats, classes, birthsigns, etc. instead of the perk tree". Two affirmations, not one consequence of the other.

[Lachdonin]

I still can't understand claims like this. How is having arbitrary skill-sets forced on you (classes) and managing more arbitrary numbers (stats) more RP than freeform development?

 

I said "Skyrim doesn't feel like an RPG ... plus, Oblivion is based on stats, classes, birthsigns, etc. instead of the perk tree". Two affirmations, not one consequence of the other.

 

I... Don't understand what your saying. The statement you made alludes to the fact that stats, classes, birthsigns etc. are more RPG than the free-form leveling and the Perk system. I argued against that. If you mean that the change in the system is a seperate point than the lack of RPG elements, then you probably should have put it in a seperate line.

 

If that's the case, however, you are offering nothing to support the arguement that Skyrim is 'useless' in regards to RP potential. Again, something i dissagree with. Marriage, faction loyalty, domestic and mundane tasks, not to mention the usual good-vs-evil quests cropping up from time to time (the Redguard woman, the Dark Brotherhood, Vaermina's daedric quest to name but 3) have actually increased the potential for RP within the game, while the unrestricted leveling system, and the highly restricted Perk system individualise your character.

[BucMan55]

The fact that you could get to 100 in everything in Oblivion and Morrowind was a glaring error but it did go along with Bethesda's idea that you could do whatever you wanted whenever you wanted. But the solution to that was not to remove it all together. I think simply fixing the auto-leveling of NPCs was almost enough to invalidate the need for micromanaging to get +5 to stats upon level up. Of course, the max you could get in Oblivion was 100 in any attribute without buffs so if you start at 50 in one you only get 10 levels of +5 before you were done. Perhaps in a game with 50 levels perhaps you weren't intended to get those +5s everytime. But the auto-level of the world around you made it almost necessary because the monsters would gain stats in a hyper-focused manner that would make your +2 and +3 gains start to lag behind after a few levels. So naturally they fixed that problem. Bethesda then went two steps further and fixed something that no longer needed fixing. And by fixing I mean removing entirely instead of tweaking (I'd rather see them limit gains to a static +3).

 

 

Edit: And the limiting thing from an RP perspective is in Skyrim a two handed berserker warrior mage is just as fast and can jump as high as an acrobatic ninja(well, at least that's what the character was in Oblivion with similar skillsets minus the two As).

 

 

And my monk can't even get off the ground because they removed Hand to Hand as a skilled skill.

Edited February 2, 2012 by BucMan55

[Lachdonin]

Edit: And the limiting thing from an RP perspective is in Skyrim a two handed berserker warrior mage is just as fast and can jump as high as an acrobatic ninja(well, at least that's what the character was in Oblivion with similar skillsets minus the two As)..

 

The problem with that is the same problemw as present in Oblivion and Morrowind, you simply had more skills to manage. Acrobatic and Atheletic skills don't dix the issue, they simply give you more to manage to acheive the same results. Now, if they were turned into Perks, of which you already have to pick and choose, it would make specialization more pronounced.

 

As for Monks, i dispise the whole martial arts dynamic to the core... but i see your point. As i said, the system isn't perfect, and there is lots of room for improvement. Still, its better on the whole than the old one.

Edited February 2, 2012 by Lachdonin

[Wraithofdoom]

Both are good games, wait until Skyrim gets the mods and it will be better than Oblivion. As they stand right now Oblivion is still better.

 

Judging the vanilla games, Oblivion is better imo, i like Cyrodill more, the quests and guilds were better (specially the guilds) and the game was much more inmersive, with skyrim you feel like playing a very good and fun game but its hard to be pulled into the world like in Oblivion.

[justwannaddl]

Skyrim feels like a case of the devs doing their best to address the previous game's weaknesses at the cost of losing some of the previous game's strengths. The UI was obviously optimized for consoles at the cost of decent PC controls. The open world is a lot more dull and cramped than Oblivion but the dungeons are more detailed and the random encounters are far more varied. The leveling system is much more intuitive and fluid but the magic system has been hobbled by the lack of spell creation or scaling.

 

The voice acting is better but the dialogue options are more limited. People don't talk to each other and most never recognize any titles you may gain. Being told that I should join the mages college for the hundredth time after I became the archmage is just plain annoying. It doesn't help that the majority of the population is composed of permanent jerks.

 

At this point, Oblivion is clearly the superior game because of the years of continuous mods, DLCs and expansion. I doubt Skyrim will even come clost to catching up for at least another year. Total game overhauls like Nehrim don't happen overnight. As for vanilla versions, I still prefer Oblivion for its atmosphere and the fact that it was a lot more open. I could walk in any direction in Oblivion and wind up close to or at the edge of the map. In Skyrim, I walk for maybe ten seconds off the road before I hit an impassible rock.

[BucMan55]

Edit: And the limiting thing from an RP perspective is in Skyrim a two handed berserker warrior mage is just as fast and can jump as high as an acrobatic ninja(well, at least that's what the character was in Oblivion with similar skillsets minus the two As)..

 

The problem with that is the same problemw as present in Oblivion and Morrowind, you simply had more skills to manage. Acrobatic and Atheletic skills don't dix the issue, they simply give you more to manage to acheive the same results. Now, if they were turned into Perks, of which you already have to pick and choose, it would make specialization more pronounced.

 

As for Monks, i dispise the whole martial arts dynamic to the core... but i see your point. As i said, the system isn't perfect, and there is lots of room for improvement. Still, its better on the whole than the old one.

 

Two things: First I give you points for at least being able to see past your hatred of the martial arts dynamic and understand how it limits options, most are like "I hated it so good riddance". And Second, I would love to merge the Athletic and Acrobatic skills with Skyrim's perk system so that while you could differentiate yourself in that manner, you can't get it in the round about way that was possible in Oblivion(eventually getting it because you did run your way to 100 eventually, even if it was the last skill to get there). In Skyrim, you can get all skills to 100, but you can't get all the perks for those skills. That was a step in the right direction.