Ad Victoriam, But Why?

[Deleted4363562User]

I made a video summarizing why I side with the BOS. Figured I'd share it here and get some feedback.

 

 

 

 

[kevkiev]

At first I thought "oh, gawd, another lore-infused, overly done, and ultimately boring video coming up." But I had some time on my hands and watched anyways. Ended up liking it quite a bit, both from a game and overall perspective. Really well done. In fact, siding with the BOS might just be in my next playthrough. (I've always done things so that the MM, BOS and RR co-exist at the end.) Besides, I've always wanted a good excuse to see Liberty Prime in action again :P

[Deleted4363562User]

At first I thought "oh, gawd, another lore-infused, overly done, and ultimately boring video coming up." But I had some time on my hands and watched anyways. Ended up liking it quite a bit, both from a game and overall perspective. Really well done. In fact, siding with the BOS might just be in my next playthrough. (I've always done things so that the MM, BOS and RR co-exist at the end.) Besides, I've always wanted a good excuse to see Liberty Prime in action again :tongue:

 

 

Yeah, I agree. These videos are way overdone. But I had this one in my head for a while, and I always just put it off. The more I think about it, the more I think the BOS are probably needed in our timeline. :laugh:

 

Thanks for watching.

[Moksha8088]

This is a very well made video. No doubt aloof could make a comparably persuasive video on the programmably benign nature of synths and the sometimes fanatical nature of the Brotherhood of Steel. Well written but loose arguments can lead to multiple conclusions. Consider this scenario, beneficent synths from the future where able to send back a functional replica of a faulty national leader that had a penchant for actual facts and was not totally self-serving. Wouldn't that make synths a-okay in that instance?

[Deleted4363562User]

This is a very well made video. No doubt aloof could make a comparably persuasive video on the programmably benign nature of synths and the sometimes fanatical nature of the Brotherhood of Steel. Well written but loose arguments can lead to multiple conclusions. Consider this scenario, beneficent synths from the future where able to send back a functional replica of a faulty national leader that had a penchant for actual facts and was not totally self-serving. Wouldn't that make synths a-okay in that instance?

 

Hahahaha! It took me second to pick up on that. I was like....what? Then it clicked. :laugh:

 

If I had actual animation skills, I would totally make that video.

[Fkemman11]

Thank you for a well made presentation. I agree that it is important to make the distinction between human- and anything made to appear​ human. The idea of a race of synthetics posing as humans is an offence to natural law IMO. This is why I have ever avoided the main quest-line since I did not want deal with the synth pandering by the misguided RR and others- as this would lead to essentially directly apposed views on a key issue. The fact is that machines are made to serve mankind. Any form of AI is to be viewed as such and treated accordingly. If it is malfunctioning then it either needs to be "fixed" or deactivated. People or groups supporting the notion that synths should be treated otherwise need to be dealt with for the sake of humanity's future. How those individuals are dealt with is a matter of ethics. Sometimes the End justifies the Means. :nuke:

[Moraelin]

Unfortunately, it's not about looks. I'd be happy to grant them human status. Hell, I'd be happy to grant Codsworth human status, since he obviously went sentient enough and transceeded his programming enough to be able to lie to you. (Seriously, he misleads you at first, until he's sure he can trust you.)

 

BUT, and this is a big BUT, Synths have some properties that make them a huge risk. Something which the black slaves in the south did not have. Namely:

- a recall code

- a code to re-activate memories and a personality they didn't even KNOW they had (see, Harkness)

- the ability to have their memories and personality up- and down-loaded quite trivially, even with pre-war tech

- optionally, a chip that allows them to be teleported from anywhere (see, Kellogg's final memory)

- optionally, chips that activate only under specific circumstances (see, the courser aim module)

 

All of which make them some potentially lethal sleeper agents for anyone who has a list of codes. Even if said synth doesn't WANT to betray you. And don't think you're out of the woods if you nuked the Institute. Dr Zimmer, and possibly others, are still out there.

 

Humans don't have that. Black slaves in the south never had that. The original railroad wasn't creating a security risk that a bunch of ex-slaves would turn loyal to their former slave owners if they just hear the right word.

 

So, anyway, here's some of what someone with a list of codes could do:

- deactivate a sentry, or better yet a commader, in a crucial fight (see, Gabriel)

- put a hidden set of memories as a fanatically loyal courser, and reactivate THAT set of memories when they need it

- key that to happen automatically via one of those chips that only go online under specific circumstances (e.g., next time they're near the Prydwen reactor)

- teleport one of your synths back, download all they learned in that time, then send them back without you being any wiser

Etc.

 

Again, humans don't have that. You can do a heuristic that someone wouldn't, say, betray you to his former slave owner for the runaway slaves in DC. But a synth has no control over that. You say the code, and you own them, no matter how much they wouldn't want to be owned again. Harkness didn't want his old memories and personality back, but he got them anyway. Gabriel didn't want to go from badass leader of the biggest raider gang to slave, but that's what he got. You know the code, you own them.

 

So, yes, sad to say, Maxson was right to want Danse dead. It doesn't matter how nice a person he is now, how devoted, how altruistic, etc. Anyone who knows who he is, and what his code is, can just take him out in a crucial fight, flip his memories to being a fanatically loyal Institute soldier, download his memories with all the BOS knowledge he acquired, etc.

 

And that's not even taking into account that he could be faking it. Yeah, he's a nice guy. Very much so. But one constant of ALL synth infiltrators is that they act MUCH nicer than the originals. That's how the Goodneighbour guards find them. Or look at Warwick. He turned so much nicer that his family and friends start wondering WTH happened. But he's a loyal infiltrator all right.

[Madcat221]

Unfortunately, it's not about looks. I'd be happy to grant them human status. Hell, I'd be happy to grant Codsworth human status, since he obviously went sentient enough and transceeded his programming enough to be able to lie to you. (Seriously, he misleads you at first, until he's sure he can trust you.)

 

BUT, and this is a big BUT, Synths have some properties that make them a huge risk. Something which the black slaves in the south did not have. Namely:

- a recall code

- a code to re-activate memories and a personality they didn't even KNOW they had (see, Harkness)

- the ability to have their memories and personality up- and down-loaded quite trivially, even with pre-war tech

- optionally, a chip that allows them to be teleported from anywhere (see, Kellogg's final memory)

- optionally, chips that activate only under specific circumstances (see, the courser aim module)

 

All of which make them some potentially lethal sleeper agents for anyone who has a list of codes. Even if said synth doesn't WANT to betray you. And don't think you're out of the woods if you nuked the Institute. Dr Zimmer, and possibly others, are still out there.

 

Humans don't have that. Black slaves in the south never had that. The original railroad wasn't creating a security risk that a bunch of ex-slaves would turn loyal to their former slave owners if they just hear the right word.

 

So, anyway, here's some of what someone with a list of codes could do:

- deactivate a sentry, or better yet a commader, in a crucial fight (see, Gabriel)

- put a hidden set of memories as a fanatically loyal courser, and reactivate THAT set of memories when they need it

- key that to happen automatically via one of those chips that only go online under specific circumstances (e.g., next time they're near the Prydwen reactor)

- teleport one of your synths back, download all they learned in that time, then send them back without you being any wiser

Etc.

 

Again, humans don't have that. You can do a heuristic that someone wouldn't, say, betray you to his former slave owner for the runaway slaves in DC. But a synth has no control over that. You say the code, and you own them, no matter how much they wouldn't want to be owned again. Harkness didn't want his old memories and personality back, but he got them anyway. Gabriel didn't want to go from badass leader of the biggest raider gang to slave, but that's what he got. You know the code, you own them.

 

So, yes, sad to say, Maxson was right to want Danse dead. It doesn't matter how nice a person he is now, how devoted, how altruistic, etc. Anyone who knows who he is, and what his code is, can just take him out in a crucial fight, flip his memories to being a fanatically loyal Institute soldier, download his memories with all the BOS knowledge he acquired, etc.

 

And that's not even taking into account that he could be faking it. Yeah, he's a nice guy. Very much so. But one constant of ALL synth infiltrators is that they act MUCH nicer than the originals. That's how the Goodneighbour guards find them. Or look at Warwick. He turned so much nicer that his family and friends start wondering WTH happened. But he's a loyal infiltrator all right.

 

A much more thoughtful and pragmatic look at the dilemma of Synths, instead of "ZOMG INHUMAN ABOMINATION" that is all feeling and no thought. That is the one and only reason I cannot side with the Brotherhood: Fanaticism. I do not abide it. Maxson was right to want Danse dead... but for the wrong (un)reason.

[Moraelin]

Well, I can join the BOS for some very pragmatic reasons: they're a massive paramilitary junta, and while (as I've detailed before) I'm confident that I could eventually train a better military than the BOS ever were, here and now I'm not sure I want to start a war with them. They have the numbers, the tech, the power armours, and enough industrial base restored in DC to even make the Prydwen possible. While I have a bunch of hilariously ineffective minutemen that get owned even by radroaches.

 

And out of the other organizations, the Railroad is basically a horrible group that erases Synths from existence and regards the humans of the commonwealth as a bigger enemy than the Institute is. And who had no qualms with pulling stunts like installing a mind-wiped synth as the leader of the biggest raider gang in MA, to prey on the humans of the commonwealth.

 

And the Institute, well, I can wrize -- and have written already -- whole messages about how they're not just evil, but over the top evil.

 

So what are my choices, really? Out of the 3 crappy choices, I'd rather be the MA equivalent of Petain and surrender to the fascists.

 

And, hey, they're at least the only ones who actively fight raiders, supermutants and the like.

[Moraelin]

A much more thoughtful and pragmatic look at the dilemma of Synths, instead of "ZOMG INHUMAN ABOMINATION" that is all feeling and no thought. That is the one and only reason I cannot side with the Brotherhood: Fanaticism. I do not abide it. Maxson was right to want Danse dead... but for the wrong (un)reason.

Unfortunately, you kinda have to go into such details the Fallout universe. As Deacon pointed out, people WILL try to BS you. And I'd add, a lot are BS-ing themselves.

 

Analogies to what you know (e.g., black slaves in the 19'th century) are deliberately misleading and flawed. And organization names are... ironic at best. To say the least.

 

The Railroad is actually running a mass operation of erasing synths from existence, unlike the original Railroad. The Institute is not really a force of progress. And not only for the rest of the world, but even their tech stagnated majorly except for teleportation. Etc.

 

Essentially the Pillars Of The Community illustrate this perfectly: they're anything but.

 

And before someone blames it on Beth, it was so in games not made by Beth too. E.g., Caesar and Caesar's Legion in NV, if you actually know your ancient history, are the POLAR OPPOSITES of Rome around the time of Caesar. Just about every frikken aspect, everything they do, is the polar opposite of what Romans would have done. Just as a random illustration, take setting their best general on fire for losing a battle. Rome conspicuously did NOT do that, even in cases of extreme incompetence.