chucksteel Posted March 23, 2018 Share Posted March 23, 2018 It also doesn't help that the community has been split between here, and Beth.net. I don't know how many threads I have posted in telling people that if they want to understand this system, then this is the thread they need to be reading. I agree with the community being split! I have also added a link to this thread in my Beth.net signature. (Not that any of them bother to read this thread!) Now for my little rant. :facepalm: What have we learned from Beth.net about Pre-Combind's,Pre-Combind's get beaked into your saves! Broken Pre-Combined's will eventually corrupt your save! If you use a mod with Broken Pre_Combined's your game will get less stable the longer you play with it! ITM's are the reason for the material swap changes from vanilla. It has nothing to do with Broken Pre-Combined's! The Pre-Combind system can be cheated if your crafty enough! (Hard Code only applies to people that play by the rules) I have more but I'll stop here. It's the misinformed leading the misinformed over there! Don't get me wrong I think console modding is a good thing but man! Sometimes I just don't know what to say! Rant over. :dance: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trosski Posted March 23, 2018 Share Posted March 23, 2018 Pre-Combind's get beaked into your saves! Broken Pre-Combined's will eventually corrupt your save! If you use a mod with Broken Pre_Combined's your game will get less stable the longer you play with it! This is probably why so many PS4 users are finding that their saves are getting destroyed. I am pretty sure a lot of them are using one of the PS4 scrapping mods, which can only work on PS4 if you break Precombines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
payl0ad Posted March 23, 2018 Share Posted March 23, 2018 It also doesn't help that the community has been split between here, and Beth.net. I don't know how many threads I have posted in telling people that if they want to understand this system, then this is the thread they need to be reading. I agree with the community being split! I have also added a link to this thread in my Beth.net signature. (Not that any of them bother to read this thread!) Now for my little rant. :facepalm: What have we learned from Beth.net about Pre-Combind's,Pre-Combind's get beaked into your saves! Broken Pre-Combined's will eventually corrupt your save! If you use a mod with Broken Pre_Combined's your game will get less stable the longer you play with it! ITM's are the reason for the material swap changes from vanilla. It has nothing to do with Broken Pre-Combined's! The Pre-Combind system can be cheated if your crafty enough! (Hard Code only applies to people that play by the rules) I have more but I'll stop here. It's the misinformed leading the misinformed over there! Don't get me wrong I think console modding is a good thing but man! Sometimes I just don't know what to say! Rant over. :dance: Maybe I'm missing a sarcasm tag but all of this sounds to me like a big steaming pile of humbug. Not meaning to offend you chuck, of course. Is any of this verified? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yakalrad Posted March 23, 2018 Share Posted March 23, 2018 (edited) Oh, it is totally dripping wet with sarcasm. Except for the bit about the misinformed leading the misinformed, that part is completely true. :P But seriously, all of those things have been said on Beth at one point or another which is why I started coming here for answers. If you ever want some entertainment, just go have a read thru chucksteels old tutorial thread over there on how to detect broken precombineds in your console game. The Updated Load Order FAQ and Assistance thread is another good one. Edited March 23, 2018 by yakalrad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SMB92 Posted March 23, 2018 Share Posted March 23, 2018 Chuck, you might be confusing the fact the cells don't actually reset until you get to them again. I haven't seen any evidence of precombined becoming persistent in any fashion, but in any case a cell is not fully reset in your save until you have visited it again. The game does not magically reset them behind the scenes, this would cause lag or potential performance issues. The only thing I could imagine is possibly the timestamp being saved. But otherwise save game would be massively bloated. RE the cell reset, this was recently confirmed to me by my friend Jostrus, aka BigandFlabby on these forums. A person who absolutely knows their s#*!. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SMB92 Posted March 23, 2018 Share Posted March 23, 2018 OK Reading the posts after chucks, I'm not sure if the latter is hostile to chuck or what but I sincerely hope not. No good becomes of that, only the open sharing of information can draw solid conclusions, not politics and derogatory. Anyway here is my simple conclusion, just to recap this thread. 1. We have the Umbra previs system. This works well for what it is. It apply occlusion planes (somewhat) dynamically to objects on scenes of certain types (namely static in this game). Due to performance concerns, they are applying this on a per cell basis via the uvd files, that will load with the cell and map the planes where needed. Fair enough. Witcher 3 uses the same system, which I've noticed they have cared less about the third person factor. 2. Bethesda has implemented their mutated static collections, the precombined meshes. Good in theory, in an unmoddable game. Oh wait this one's moddable. What a shame. The algorithm behind the generating of them in this system is causing us all sorts of headaches, thanks to over bloated generations reproducing files not needed. Or calculating inconsistently making its own mind up each time when their are some ambiguous groups of overlapping statics producing some different files. But overall, it decrease the draw call count, and contributes healthy performance statistics. Especially in combination with previs. Clearly the 2 previs options account for use of the precombineds or not. One options gens without, one options gens with. Logic would lead one to believe the previs with precombineds would be better as it would calculate a whole precombined mesh surface area to apply the planes. And that is proven in my testing on this also. Previs however is the thing that I see causing the instability, and it makes some sense, given the uvd files. There are already a lot of problems seen on cell load, such as the lod bug. It is a performance intensive operation and cell load stutter has been a chief complaint in many of the games by Bethesda. It only makes sense that throwing in the load of a uvd file and calculation, and then f*#@ing with that in anyway cause the game to have issues. What seems like a simple bool check, is not. I can turn a perfectly stable game completely to s#*! by typing tpc twice. This is clearly a factor beyond our control and down to the implementation of said system. There is one proper way to deal with it. Redo the precalc after modifications. Redo everything and a bit more. Massive mod download size you say? Sure. But you want to give up your sanity instead to get that lower? Your choice. Consoles you say? Take that one up with Bethesda and Sony even more so. Do away with precalc you say? Bethesda went too apeshit with trash and deco and nuked performance you say? Take that up with Bethesda too. What I know is it is what it is, and this is what you have to do now. Throw your sanity or your poop at each other, just think of the time you could of spent being more productive elsewhere. And then pray for multithreading renderer in future. And also better, less lazy Dev. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evangela Posted March 23, 2018 Share Posted March 23, 2018 Reading through most of this has got me thinking.. Would referencing an object that is in a precombined mesh also have negative effects? You're not physically touching the object, only using a property to point to it, which obviously the CK will flag as edited, and this will be reflected in FO4Edit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yakalrad Posted March 23, 2018 Share Posted March 23, 2018 (edited) OK Reading the posts after chucks, I'm not sure if the latter is hostile to chuck or what but I sincerely hope not. No good becomes of that, only the open sharing of information can draw solid conclusions, not politics and derogatory. If you are talking about my comment, certainly not. Chucksteel is my friend and I support him 100 percent. He was attacked in his thread on Beth and those same people got his thread locked, all because he dared to share factual information. I only pointed out those 2 particular threads on Beth so that others could go read for themselves the misinformation that Chuck referenced. Edited March 23, 2018 by yakalrad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SMB92 Posted March 23, 2018 Share Posted March 23, 2018 Now that is a good question. I want to be optimistic and say Beth would have saw that coming, and perhaps in order to keep precombineds intact, the object would load in along side the precombineds, which is definitely possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SMB92 Posted March 23, 2018 Share Posted March 23, 2018 My apologies then yakalrad, I do not hang around Beth net garbage forums, so I do not know the context ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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