gromulos Posted April 26, 2017 Share Posted April 26, 2017 (edited) I'm stumped then. And that's a first lol :tongue: The ONLY other thing i can think of is to check the plug-ins properties and make sure it is NOT set to read only. Edited April 26, 2017 by gromulos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PushTheWinButton Posted April 27, 2017 Share Posted April 27, 2017   So the tl;dr is that there's no reasoning behind the master ordering - I don't believe changing them around will break anything. Um, that's not actually true. The laod order is determined by the mod authors load order when he or she made the patch / mod in the GECK or FNVEdit. If the authors load order was not correct, when the patch / mod was saved, it will save the file with the original mod authors wrong load order. Many times I've had to go through my load order and fix files SOLELY because of this oversight of the original mod author. Also, ANY AND ALL files that are orange in Wrye WILL cause crashes in game. ... I am the mod author.  ok fine. Then the fact that your mod is asking him to change the load order of his vanilla files is exactly what I was talking about. If the vanilla game files, including all DLC the mod uses, was not in the right order then every person who downloaded your mod is going to have the same problem. Here is a pic of exactly what I am talking about, below  This is the correct load order installed by steam. Any mod asking the user to change this load order simply needs to have Appendix 1 from my guide applied to it, and then it will be fixed and using the correct load order. This SHOULD also be the same load order LOOT assigns to the files.It'd help if you paid attention to the issue here. Dubious is talking about the PN masters - the vanilla masters are in the order you stated. And I believe you can just right-click on masters in the file header in FNVEdit and move them up and down to where you want them. Even clean the masters if you want. Not all of them are needed but I put them there because I could foresee some conflicts if certain PN files were loaded after the patch (i.e. it's a bit of a failsafe in case people couldn't follow my load order instructions). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gromulos Posted April 27, 2017 Share Posted April 27, 2017 (edited) It'd help if you paid attention to the issue here. Dubious is talking about the PN masters No, No he is not. Just started to try out PushTheWinButton's "Unofficial Patch Plus" (UPP) patch for PN and found it wanted EO immediately after "Core". He is talking about YOUR patch wanting the files in a different load order And I believe you can just right-click on masters in the file header in FNVEdit and move them up and down to where you want them. No, No you can not. Xedit locks the load order. You're either thinking of Wrye or are unfamiliar with Xedit. Oh, and on a side note. Cleaning the master files is NOT needed. I have NEVER cleaned them and I have never had problems for not doing so. I have over 1900 hours playing FONV and have beaten the game at least 15 times, in every way you can think of. Even beat the game as a pure pugilist using nothing more than brass knuckles ( or "Love and Hate" Knuckles from Bitter Springs ) and perks, nothing more fun than taking on 3 deathclaws at once with spiked knuckles and living :D Edited April 27, 2017 by gromulos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dubiousintent Posted April 27, 2017 Author Share Posted April 27, 2017 There is something not obvious going on here. (Just like old times when this was "work".) According to Zilav 27 Apr 2017 06:19 in "TES5Edit Support Forum":"All plugins from the Data folder are sorted into 2 groups by extension (and extension only, ESM flag in plugin's header doesn't matter): *.ESM and *.ESP, then each group is sorted by plugin's file timestamp. Then xEdit loads all ESM, then all ESPs. The order of masters in plugins doesn't affect anything." So, this indicates to me that I am going to need to adjust my PN "masters" order anyway, just so they will be in the sequence xEdit will sort them into in future. BUT independently of that: Usual PN- LOOT sort order:Core.esm 2000-04-22 09:00:00Equipment.esm 2000-05-27 20:00:01 (created: 2017-04-26 18:02:48; Accessed: 2016-02-10 10:50:45)Cyberware.esp (ESM flag) 2007-12-31 19:24:00Rebalance.esp (ESM flag) 2007-12-31 20:00:00Extra Options.esm 2007-12-31 20:01:00 (created: 2017-04-26 18:02:48; Accessed: 2016-02-10 10:52:51)Rebalance Complete.esp 2008-01-01 00:26:30All DLC.esp 2008-01-01 01:22:00UPP.esp 2016-06-12 15:56:36UPP-PN Patch.esp 2016-06-12 15:56:36 Unfortunately in this case, xEdit load order for plugins (with no external change to the dates) does not indicate the file date it sorted upon. But assuming it is also using the "Modified Date" attribute, "Extra Options.esm" should still come after "Equipment.esm", instead of the following:Core.esm (2000-04-22 09:00:00)Extra Options.esm (2007-12-31 20:01:00)Equipment.esm (2000-05-27 20:00:01) Zilav later confirmed xEdit is using the "Modified Date" for sorting. So, something else is coming into play. Still investigating. There were similar issues with "locked masters" in earlier versions of xedit. Apparently they were circumvented by turning the ESP file into an ESM (setting the flag in the xEdit "File Header" flags record and renaming the extension to ESM) would then enable sorting. While I tried that, with PN and UPP things get more complicated with various "out of sequence" master loading issues requiring more ESPs being changed. Even then making both UPP files into ESMs, the xEdit load sequence issue still remains, so I am holding off on any of that for the moment awaiting events on the xEdit side. As is often the case, the obvious symptoms merely exposed something else going on behind the scenes. Just the sort of thing you don't get to see until the app hits the "real world". I've looked at all the PN files in xEdit and the only master any of them require (beyond the game and DLCs) is PN-Core. So there shouldn't be any reason for UPP to insist on that particular load order, and PushTheWinButton didn't intentionally require it. xEdit's "Sort Masters" isn't changing the sort sequence because it doesn't see any reason to do so. Now we know that it pays no attention to any hypothetical "load order" (neither in the plugin nor in the data folder), but instead relies solely upon extension and date/time stamp. This works out because those are the same mechanism used for determining "load order" independently by everything else. But suddenly we have an instance where intended xEdit sorting rules don't work as they should. Understandably after such a long time in use, the xEdit team wants to eliminate all possible outside influences before engaging in a code "bug" hunt. For the moment I will continue to work with the xEdit team to see how this develops. I'll keep the thread informed. -Dubious- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gromulos Posted April 27, 2017 Share Posted April 27, 2017 Cyberware.esp (ESM flag) 2007-12-31 19:24:00Rebalance.esp (ESM flag) 2007-12-31 20:00:00 These are what is known as "falsely marked ESM" OK with that I am out, If you're working with the Xedit team directly, then your in the hands of pros who know FAR more than I do :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dubiousintent Posted April 30, 2017 Author Share Posted April 30, 2017 For the moment, the cause of this remains a mystery that defies logic; isolated to the "PN-Extra Options" plugin. This is the only instance reported of the problem since 2012, so it will most likely remain an anomaly in the xEdit bug tracker until more evidence is accumulated. Meanwhile, I have added 'Issue: Recommended "Project Nevada" master file load order?' to the wiki "Fallout NV Mod Conflict Troubleshooting" guide under "Miscellaneous" as a solution to the initial problem. -Dubious- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PushTheWinButton Posted April 30, 2017 Share Posted April 30, 2017  It'd help if you paid attention to the issue here. Dubious is talking about the PN masters No, No he is not.  Just started to try out PushTheWinButton's "Unofficial Patch Plus" (UPP) patch for PN and found it wanted EO immediately after "Core". He is talking about YOUR patch wanting the files in a different load order  And I believe you can just right-click on masters in the file header in FNVEdit and move them up and down to where you want them. No, No you can not. Xedit locks the load order. You're either thinking of Wrye or are unfamiliar with Xedit. Oh, and on a side note. Cleaning the master files is NOT needed. I have NEVER cleaned them and I have never had problems for not doing so. I have over 1900 hours playing FONV and have beaten the game at least 15 times, in every way you can think of. Even beat the game as a pure pugilist using nothing more than brass knuckles ( or "Love and Hate" Knuckles from Bitter Springs ) and perks, nothing more fun than taking on 3 deathclaws at once with spiked knuckles and living :DUgh. Someone has selective reading. I remember why I stopped trying to help people on here... Yes, this is in fact about the PN masters/esps. As you said, Doubious is talking about my file wanting Projects Nevada's files in a different order to what he has already. I don't see what your're misunderstanding there to be honest. And yes, you can change the order of masters in a file's header using FNVEdit - I do it all the time. But whetevs. I quit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dubiousintent Posted May 1, 2017 Author Share Posted May 1, 2017 (edited) Well, I don't want to leave the thread with the impression there is anything "wrong" with PushTheWinButton's patch. The issue is isolated to xEdit and the PN-EO plugin (only), apparently only on my machine as Zilav has been unable to reproduce it. And I was able to resolve it by manually placing the PN- ESM files in the sequence the patch wanted, because upon investigation there were no downsides except sorting the masters in a couple of other PN- plugins (using xEdit) to conform to the new sequence placement of PN-Equipment. LOOT and my game have no issues with that change. The "UPP+ PN-Patch" merely had the misfortune to trigger the specific circumstance due to a single file difference in sort order. I'm no stranger to this process. Symptoms are often not directly related to the actual cause. I appreciate PushTheWinButton's quick response, and the help offered by gromulos and Zilav. It's tough to think of all the possible causes of a particular symptom. This instance is a strange problem defying logic, and if others can also produce the underlying issue (that xEdit's load order of ESM files in the "File Header" does not match the extension sorted date/time stamp sequence presented in it's "selection" window) please report it to the "xEdit Support" forum on the STEP site. It's not something you are likely to notice unless you are looking for it, but Zilav and team can't fix it if they can't reproduce it. The more reports, the better the chances. -Dubious- Edited May 1, 2017 by dubiousintent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VaporWatch Posted July 23, 2017 Share Posted July 23, 2017 This is the exact same thing I'm coming across with the exact same mods and same load order. Tool me nearly 6 hours to find this thread! I was going crazy trying to get xedit to sort masters and couldn't figure out why on earth it was loading mods contrary to my load order. Thank you Dubiousintent for being the first (I think) to report this issue and finding a solution. I guess I come to depend on these programs a bit too much and when they don't work as they should, I get a bit vapor locked. Thanks for the help and entertaining thread. It's interesting to see how many times the same statements can be misunderstood by multiple people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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