Trying to justify joining the Stormcloaks as Dunmer

[sajuukkhar9000]

What explains the attacking on the Redguards?, they aren't of the human bloodlines.

That is incorrect.

 

They are not of the main human bloodline, but they are still human, just as the Akaviri humans have no known ties to the Nordic-Nede bloodline yet are still men also.

 

Similar to how the Dwemer have no known ties to the original Aldmeri strain of Mer, that all other Mer from the Altmer to the Alyeids share, yet are still Mer.

Edited September 20, 2012 by sajuukkhar9000

[Ghoulz]

Dunmer don't make the most logical decisions so it doesn't seem too weird to me.

 

Joining the Stormcloaks as an Altmer, AND Ulfric being reckless enough to trust you doesn't make much sense however.

[SFBryan18]

Alternately, you ARE on the side of the Thalmor and are backing Ulfric just so he can further weaken the Empire? The civil war that Ulfric is waging is costly and resulting in the deaths of both Imperials and Stormcloaks alike, if Ulfric dies then there is the chance that the Empire would keep control and eventually rebuild their army to a point where they could stand against the Thalmor. If Ulfric wins then the Empire pretty much falls apart and is no longer a threat to the Thalmor, letting them build their own army wage another war against mankind and wipe them out.

 

 

Basically, if the Empire wins then they would have more resources and perhaps be able to field a sizable army to defend themselves when the Thalmor inevitable wage war again to wipe them out.

 

If Ulfric wins then you'll have Skyrim and a severely weakened Empire each standing separately and thus easier to wipe out when the Thalmor attack.

 

At the very least, siding with the Stormcloaks prolongs the civil war and gets a whole lot of humans and people killed without the Thalmor having to invest resources into it. The Thalmor are already planning to wage another war and are building up their forces. This civil war simply tires out the human nations and means the Thalmor will be on better footing the next time.

 

Really, spreading discord amongst your opponents can only help your guys back home. Plus, in a best case scenario then your example of backing Ulfric will let you or other Thalmor agents better infiltrate the resulting independent Skyrim.

 

Sorry, but there's too many 'if's' in your arguments (like many others). Hypothetical situations are not proof that anything will go in favor of any side. "If this happens then that will" seems to draw too many conclusions based on speculation. Just to add, the speculation describes a very broad scenario which doesn't account for many factors such as... How big is the total population of Skyrim vs the Thalmor... If Skyrim becomes free, will they form an alliance with other nations.... Will a free Skyrim still ally themselves with the Empire just to fight the Thalmor...

 

These questions don't have answers so no one can say what will happen to Skyrim if it becomes free. I don't think an 'ends justify the means' excuse is logical, even though it is the primary argument of Imperial supporters.

[Lachdonin]

Sorry, but there's too many 'if's' in your arguments (like many others). Hypothetical situations are not proof that anything will go in favor of any side. "If this happens then that will" seems to draw too many conclusions based on speculation. Just to add, the speculation describes a very broad scenario which doesn't account for many factors such as... How big is the total population of Skyrim vs the Thalmor... If Skyrim becomes free, will they form an alliance with other nations.... Will a free Skyrim still ally themselves with the Empire just to fight the Thalmor...

 

These questions don't have answers so no one can say what will happen to Skyrim if it becomes free. I don't think an 'ends justify the means' excuse is logical, even though it is the primary argument of Imperial supporters.

 

And yet, the Stormcloaks have even more 'ifs' to ther arguements than the Empire. If you are going to condem the Imperial arguement on the basis of too many uncertianties, you have to apply the same condemnation against the Stormcloaks.

[JanusForbeare]

Sorry, but there's too many 'if's' in your arguments (like many others). Hypothetical situations are not proof that anything will go in favor of any side. "If this happens then that will" seems to draw too many conclusions based on speculation. Just to add, the speculation describes a very broad scenario which doesn't account for many factors such as... How big is the total population of Skyrim vs the Thalmor... If Skyrim becomes free, will they form an alliance with other nations.... Will a free Skyrim still ally themselves with the Empire just to fight the Thalmor...

 

These questions don't have answers so no one can say what will happen to Skyrim if it becomes free. I don't think an 'ends justify the means' excuse is logical, even though it is the primary argument of Imperial supporters.

 

Ah, idealists...

 

"A leads to B leads to C" is how governments, think tanks, and military institutions dictate policy the world over... another name for it is deductive reasoning. No matter how many optimistic scenarios are put forwards, there are certain fundamental facts which explain why the Empire is a more logical choice when faced with the prospect of an imminent Thalmor invasion. For example:

 

FACT: The Empire has a centralized power base. Our own history has proven, time and time again, that a single, monolithic power structure is more reliable in a conflict than an alliance of disparate nations. Consider the wars of the Third, Fourth, and Fifth coalition against Napoleonic France. In each case, the competing agendas of the various allied powers worked to undermine their common goals.

 

FACT: The fragmentation of the Empire which has occurred (and, depending on the Dovahkiin's actions, continues to occur) bears striking similarities to the fragmentation that occurred in former Ottoman and Russian territories following WWI. This process, often referred to as "Balkanization" almost inevitably leads to territorial conflicts between the newly independent nations - not newfound alliances and cooperation.

 

FACT: Civil wars rarely give rise to stable governments. Following a civil war, a country is often left in a state of economic disarray, with their infrastructure damaged and their population trained for and accustomed to internecine warfare, not peaceful cooperation. Consider the case of Spain, which required the bloody dictatorship of Franco to maintain some semblance of order (and which gave rise to several major independence movements after his death - some of which continue to this day).

 

But to get back on track - I don't see ANY reason for a Dunmer to support the Stormcloaks. I know that if Atvir got his hands on one that did, the sodding traitor wouldn't last very long at all. :)

 

http://roadto90.files.wordpress.com/2011/05/loiter_fact.jpg

[mightymuffin007]

Ah, idealists...

 

"A leads to B leads to C" is how governments, think tanks, and military institutions dictate policy the world over... another name for it is deductive reasoning. No matter how many optimistic scenarios are put forwards, there are certain fundamental facts which explain why the Empire is a more logical choice when faced with the prospect of an imminent Thalmor invasion. For example:

 

FACT: The Empire has a centralized power base. Our own history has proven, time and time again, that a single, monolithic power structure is more reliable in a conflict than an alliance of disparate nations. Consider the wars of the Third, Fourth, and Fifth coalition against Napoleonic France. In each case, the competing agendas of the various allied powers worked to undermine their common goals.

 

FACT: The fragmentation of the Empire which has occurred (and, depending on the Dovahkiin's actions, continues to occur) bears striking similarities to the fragmentation that occurred in former Ottoman and Russian territories following WWI. This process, often referred to as "Balkanization" almost inevitably leads to territorial conflicts between the newly independent nations - not newfound alliances and cooperation.

 

FACT: Civil wars rarely give rise to stable governments. Following a civil war, a country is often left in a state of economic disarray, with their infrastructure damaged and their population trained for and accustomed to internecine warfare, not peaceful cooperation. Consider the case of Spain, which required the bloody dictatorship of Franco to maintain some semblance of order (and which gave rise to several major independence movements after his death - some of which continue to this day).

 

But to get back on track - I don't see ANY reason for a Dunmer to support the Stormcloaks. I know that if Atvir got his hands on one that did, the sodding traitor wouldn't last very long at all. :)

 

Not trying to start a Empire vs Stormcloak argument with this reply at all (though reading back over it, I probably did...so double apologies). However, I simply want to pose questions and possibly disagree with some of your points. However, I do wish to say that I understand your argument and the basis of your evidence. I also respect your argument, and do not wish this to come across as saying "you are wrong," as this is not something I believe can be settled or "clearly won" by either side...hence why there is a Civil War in the game.

 

The "A leads to B which leads to C" topic - I agree. However, it can also backfire - as was the case with the start of WWI. If not for all the alliances, pacts, and war policies they had already set in place in anticipation of war, the assassination of the arch-duke may not have sparked as massive of a war (then again, it still could have...). Deductive reasoning is not fail-proof reasoning. It has safeguards, and it works a lot of the time, but it isn't guaranteed outcomes.

 

The centralized power part from your first fact - wouldn't the Empire be in some disarray due to the Dark Broterhood's dealings? I somewhat spoiled myself with the story even though I haven't played the story - all I know is that the Emperor is killed. Wouldn't this assassination place some confusion as to who the next emperor would be? On top of that, the Civil War isn't helping to answer that question of who will lead. It may be answered in the DB questline, and if it is, I apologize. Plus, if Ulfic rises to High-King, solidifying his power with the Jarl of Solitude, wouldn't that be considered centralizing his power? I forget how the Nord government works, but I would think that after the Civil War, all the holds now have Stormcloak supporters, and therefore would be willing to follow Ulfric no matter what. So while the government isn't fully centralized, there is strong unity within the State. I do understand your argument, as the Stormcloaks would need to find some way to produce money, troops, etc while also rebuilding the aftermath of the Civil War. However, I don't think the Empire has it any easier with a dead emperor, heavy loses whether or not they win the Civil War, and the Thalmor sitting back, enjoying the show.

 

The second Fact - I agree and believe you are correct. Even if a single power was pushing in, its unlikely that all sides would join together to fight - some may even join the Thalmor to save themselves. However, what if the Dovakhiin is alive still during this Thalmor war - wouldn't most Stormcloak-supporting Dovakhiin's want to unite the fledgling states? Wouldn't it most likely end up being you do a few quests for their leaders and they'll join your cause? (I mean, it doesn't take much to get Ulfric to like you, no matter your race). This is an "If" statement, but its not an impossible thought in the TES universe for a single person to unite and gain the aid of several leaders to fight against a universal evil (Oblivion Crisis comes to mind, though in that case, it is more about convincing them that protecting one is protecting the whole).

 

Fact #3 - I think I added some of what I was thinking in Fact #1 with economic disarray, and I guess it also goes back to my question of a dead emperor causing problems with things for the Empire. Otherwise, I generally agree.

 

Also, I do agree with some of the comments on reasons a Dunmer would join the Stormcloaks - if someone tried to chop my head off, I definitely wouldn't turn around so quickly and say "I'll fight for your beliefs!" I think someone who reacts on gut instinct would say "I'll join the Stormcloaks because the Empire almost killed me." Someone who thinks through things may still say that, but may also say "I was caught up in something that I wasn't a part of, and the soldiers were just following orders. Maybe I should still support the Empire, and crush the Thalmor." Anyway, I believe there could be reasonable or unreasonable (who said everything had to be logical? I may have joined the Stormcloaks because there was a girl I was interested in that was joining the Stormcloaks...how reasonable is that?) excuses for joining either side. Bethesda made a great grey (gray...dangit, I always hate this word because of moral ambiguities and because I can't remember how I spell it) quest and lore with the Empire versus Stormcloak. It made people think, which is a more mature way of handling quests and story. I still prefer the "idealistic" good versus evil quests, but I can appreciate ambiguous quests like these, if done well.

 

I hope this doesn't come across as disrespectful, but this is something I've had trouble with myself since day 1. I even prolonged choosing a side simply because I couldn't come to a consensus (wonders if anyone will get the reference). Both sides, to me, have valid arguments - and my hope is that Bethesda doesn't simply add it to a book and move on to the next game. My hope is that the Thalmor agenda is dealt with here and now. If Bethesda doesn't do it, then dangit I will do my best to make an epic questline that does - this needs resolution of some sort.

[Lachdonin]

The centralized power part from your first fact - wouldn't the Empire be in some disarray due to the Dark Broterhood's dealings? I somewhat spoiled myself with the story even though I haven't played the story - all I know is that the Emperor is killed. Wouldn't this assassination place some confusion as to who the next emperor would be? On top of that, the Civil War isn't helping to answer that question of who will lead. It may be answered in the DB questline, and if it is, I apologize. Plus, if Ulfic rises to High-King, solidifying his power with the Jarl of Solitude, wouldn't that be considered centralizing his power? I forget how the Nord government works, but I would think that after the Civil War, all the holds now have Stormcloak supporters, and therefore would be willing to follow Ulfric no matter what. So while the government isn't fully centralized, there is strong unity within the State. I do understand your argument, as the Stormcloaks would need to find some way to produce money, troops, etc while also rebuilding the aftermath of the Civil War. However, I don't think the Empire has it any easier with a dead emperor, heavy loses whether or not they win the Civil War, and the Thalmor sitting back, enjoying the show.

 

First, the Empire has (rather regularly, in fact) had Emperors die abruptly. It has a system in place to deal with those issues, through the Elder Council and varrying lines of sucession which enevitably crop up with dynastic systems. Theres no reason to beleive it would be any more unstable than it is now (if it is now).

 

Second, yes, Ulfric taking the crown of the High King would be a centralization of power, but over a much smaller body. The Empire is a centralized government for, at present, 4 Provinces, each about the same size as Skyrim. Ulfric taking the throne of the High King gives him Skyrim, but no authority over any other Province, which means relying on alliances, which tend to backfire (in Tamriel as much as in our world).

 

None of which really deals with WHY a Dunmer would side with teh Stormcloaks. I tend to think it would be more likely than one siding with the Thalmor, but unlikely none the less.

 

And before anyone pulls the "Nords saved the refugees from Morrownd" card, Sul makes it quite clear they didn't have a choice. It was either allow tens of thousands of refugees into Solsthiem and Skyrim, or slaughter unarmed civilians, and not one Jarl was about to stick THAT foot in his arse.

Edited September 21, 2012 by Lachdonin

[mightymuffin007]

First, the Empire has (rather regularly, in fact) had Emperors die abruptly. It has a system in place to deal with those issues, through the Elder Council and varrying lines of sucession which enevitably crop up with dynastic systems. Theres no reason to beleive it would be any more unstable than it is now (if it is now).

 

Second, yes, Ulfric taking the crown of the High King would be a centralization of power, but over a much smaller body. The Empire is a centralized government for, at present, 4 Provinces, each about the same size as Skyrim. Ulfric taking the throne of the High King gives him Skyrim, but no authority over any other Province, which means relying on alliances, which tend to backfire (in Tamriel as much as in our world).

 

None of which really deals with WHY a Dunmer would side with teh Stormcloaks. I tend to think it would be more likely than one siding with the Thalmor, but unlikely none the less.

 

And before anyone pulls the "Nords saved the refugees from Morrownd" card, Sul makes it quite clear they didn't have a choice. It was either allow tens of thousands of refugees into Solsthiem and Skyrim, or slaughter unarmed civilians, and not one Jarl was about to stick THAT foot in his arse.

 

I had forgotten about the Elder Council, and I do remember that even in Oblivion, when Uriel Septim IV (V? I can't remember) was assassinated, there was still order. Thinking about it now, I find it remarkable...quite the opposite of how the assassinating of the High-King of Skyrim. Thank you for pointing that out.

 

I hope no one would think that the Nords were being "nice" to the Dunmer for letting them be housed in Windhelm. It doesn't take that long to enter Windhelm and see the tension between the Nords and Dunmer. I do agree, its rather impossible to think a Dunmer would support the Stormcloaks - but then again, your character may or may not have been in Skyrim beforehand (and you get to ask questions as if you hadn't been there, or were just plain stupid). They say they caught you crossing the border into Skyrim, but then again, you could be returning. If you hadn't been in Skyrim, maybe you had good dealings with Nords, and so think it the same in Skyrim.

 

In other words, the question of whether a Dunmer would or wouldn't join the Stormcloaks, to me, still becomes a personal choice. It isn't as obvious as say an Altmer who has known ties to the Thalmor, or a Nord who loves Talos worship and will not wait for the Empire to get it back. Stereotypically, I would think Dunmer would join the Imperials. But everyone is unique, in that everyone makes choices based on their perception of things. I don't think its impossible for a Dunmer player to RP in such a way that would prevent them from joining the Stormcloaks - its just improbable.

 

EDIT: Forgot to Remove my quote to cut down on size of post - sorry :'(.

EDIT2: Forgot to add the comment that I edited the quote.

Edited September 21, 2012 by mightymuffin007

[SFBryan18]

I really don't feel like going through everything people have replied to right now, but the most logical fact about the Thalmor threat is the location of the High Elf homeland. They live on an island pretty much on the opposite side of the planet... Skyrim is far north and Sumerset Isles is far south. Of any of the facts about the Thalmor, this is the most significant because Skyrim and Morrowind will probably be the last on the list of countries to conquer simply because of their location. If the Empire loses the war, they will probably get reinforced by the Thalmor. If they can't win the war after that, Skyrim probably won't have to worry about the Thalmor since the Thalmor will have exhausted their troops helping the Empire.

 

This is the real cause and effect. Just think about how far the Roman Empire expanded. They never made it to Asia, and probably didn't know the Americas even existed. Looking at a map of Tamriel can make you forget that the regions are actually much bigger, but appear smaller due to the limitations of the game. I find that most Imperial arguments tend to be immature and unrealistic.

[Lachdonin]

I really don't feel like going through everything people have replied to right now, but the most logical fact about the Thalmor threat is the location of the High Elf homeland. They live on an island pretty much on the opposite side of the planet... Skyrim is far north and Sumerset Isles is far south. Of any of the facts about the Thalmor, this is the most significant because Skyrim and Morrowind will probably be the last on the list of countries to conquer simply because of their location. If the Empire loses the war, they will probably get reinforced by the Thalmor. If they can't win the war after that, Skyrim probably won't have to worry about the Thalmor since the Thalmor will have exhausted their troops helping the Empire.

 

This is the real cause and effect. Just think about how far the Roman Empire expanded. They never made it to Asia, and probably didn't know the Americas even existed. Looking at a map of Tamriel can make you forget that the regions are actually much bigger, but appear smaller due to the limitations of the game. I find that most Imperial arguments tend to be immature and unrealistic.

 

I'm sorry, but that makes absolutely no sense. I'm not going to address it here, because it isn't the point of the thread, but... No sense what-so-ever.

 

The key issue here, really, is that the Dunmer are, as a people, oprotunistic, subversive and generally sneaky gitz. There are numerous reasons for them to do things that are seemingly out of character, like joining the Stormcloaks, but are actually within their character. Their entire way of life is based around the teachings of Boethia, so it's all about maximising ones own potential. If a Dumer thinks he can milk the Stormcloaks for all its worth, he's damn well going to do it.