Creation Club Summer 2017

[MrJoseCuervo]

CC is a normal contract service for creative works, it works much the same way in every creative industry using outside contract services.

 

It is simply the business side is now being made more public/open in order to allow for more official content to be made for their two major titles, and upcoming titles.

 

It is going to be reviewed as a concept, and in each stage of development by a dedicated team at bethesda, Anyone can apply to join but you do need to have some work to show before hand, thus programmers, artists, and mod authors will have a good way to work with bethesda to make official content for a fee.

 

As mods are literally not official content, the CC is simply not mods. If it is official it is official, if it is not official, it is a mod.

 

As for "paid mods" in concept, yes it is rightly back and done proper, as it has been a successful practice for consumers, modders, and IP owner in other parts of the industry for nearly 20 years now. It is about time bethesda did it right to protect consumers and provide a method for hobbiests to transition into professional fields.

 

This does not effect you if you do not buy items on CC, it has no effect on existing mods. It does not take anything away from you end users. In fact you lost more from the rash of mod thefts than you ever would with "paid mods"

You are assuming everyone is going to believe the words of a corporation who has lied in the past.. You are rationalizing away the current lies they are telling TODAY that this isn't paid mods. It is paid mods, there is no way around it. They are being deceitful and disingenuous about this whole thing.

[N7R]

Well this thread exploded since making it just a few days ago. Been reading everything and have seen a lot of good points/speculation. The main concerns I have are 1) how inclusive is this 'club' going to be when it comes to special tools some get to use while the rest of the free modders get no extra tools that could potentially and most likely will make modding easier 2) are these only projects that one person is allowed to work on despite many mods usually have a collective group doing bits and pieces 3) The possibility free mods that usually are made as a collective will no longer get the support they used to have since the few who played a special role are now taken (weapon animators as an example)

 

To explain in further detail a bigger breakdown of what I mean:

 

Free Resources vs. in-house resources:

In the viewpoint of weapon mods how much is the modder creating when it comes to the content? It sounds like Beth will provide some in-house dev tools but in terms of content is that entirely up to the modder? For example: If a modder joins the Creation Club that makes weapons for Fallout 4 is Beth then going to support them with the content to finish the other parts of the mod they might not be good at? They clearly displayed in the creation club video a Fallout 4 gun so its no stretch of the imagination a well known weapon modder in the community could try applying. The thing is as we know many weapon mods include a team to create or they wouldn't even exist in the first place.They usually have anywhere from 3-5 different modders working on it that all specialize on something different. We are talking about the person who modeled it (in most cases isn't even part of the fallout community or was assets allowed to be used from other games), the texture artist, the guy who does the ck work, and most notably the animator which there are very far and few in the community. Is this type of work going to then fall on some Beth employee to animate or is basically everyone in the community that can't do EVERY aspect of a weapon on their own out luck to apply? They need to clarify stuff like this so people know if they are even eligible to apply, if Beth won't help out its crossing almost everyone off the list despite the weapon category for Fallout 4 being one of the biggest categories of content.

 

Beth already said you can't sell any free mods on this CC so that also crosses off the list any resources like animation files from existing guns or models people use to make a weapon mod from. Its gotta be 100% scratch meaning the model, textures, ck work, and the rarest of them all animations are all new and more importantly complete. Either this means any weapons in the CC will be using vanilla animations (which really don't work well with new gun models) or Beth will somehow take on part of the work to get it done maybe. Either way you need to know how to make an entire weapon on your own or somehow convince a bunch of modders who do bits and pieces for free to hop on the bandwagon and dedicate who knows how long to a contract to make a weapon for the CC then. The end result will be less free mods and those who can make said free mods less available over time.

 

 

Exclusive Tools/information from Creation Club:

More concerning to me are the tools that creation club users may get to use or keep. These could be tools that if the free modding community had would make life a lot easier. I hope we don't see a divide between the haves and have nots all because some got to partake in CC while others would have loved to use them as well but got declined or don't require the necessary things Beth may be looking for. This does not just end with tools but information as well. Will we see a new secret veil where in the community only a select few know how to do things or do mods better because they have the information and are unwilling to share or under NDA cannot disclose? I don't see how this 'benefits' free modding, if anything it will hurt it with this type of tiered system in place. Sure the paid mods 1.0 from 2015 was awful but at least anyone could hop in if they so chose. Now it seems like it will be very inclusive which in terms means anyone not part of it can face side effects that were not foreseen, only time will tell really.

 

It is great we at least have the CK and if it was not for a determined community to investigate, create, and share information/tools made by the community we would not be able to do stuff like make nif model conversions, create armors, add new animations, and spread the wealth through tutorials. Just think how much better it would be with tools streamlined for the game. Of course those type of tools will probably only be allowed to be used for mods that will get Beth money despite the fact those same tools in the hands of many modders could really create some great stuff.

 

The obvious answer is "well duh they get to use better tools its a premium paid service". I still don't like the fact that good modders out there that if they had said info or tools could provide the community exactly what they want but because Beth is making no money its going to be closed off forever. If its content or an idea Beth doesn't like (despite community wanting it) it won't matter, its all about the money at that point nothing matters past it.

 

 

tl:dr

This is all just thoughts right now but to assume nothing will change with free modding would be naive. This new ecosystem of paid mods to not paid mods will have an effect on the community either positive or negative because at its core it affects those very people that make said mods.

[Tegra795]

Well this thread exploded since making it just a few days ago. Been reading everything and have seen a lot of good points/speculation. The main concerns I have are 1) how inclusive is this 'club' going to be when it comes to special tools some get to use while the rest of the free modders get no extra tools that could potentially and most likely will make modding easier 2) are these only projects that one person is allowed to work on despite many mods usually have a collective group doing bits and pieces 3) The possibility free mods that usually are made as a collective will no longer get the support they used to have since the few who played a special role are now taken (weapon animators as an example)

 

To explain in further detail a bigger breakdown of what I mean:

 

Free Resources vs. in-house resources:

In the viewpoint of weapon mods how much is the modder creating when it comes to the content? It sounds like Beth will provide some in-house dev tools but in terms of content is that entirely up to the modder? For example: If a modder joins the Creation Club that makes weapons for Fallout 4 is Beth then going to support them with the content to finish the other parts of the mod they might not be good at? They clearly displayed in the creation club video a Fallout 4 gun so its no stretch of the imagination a well known weapon modder in the community could try applying. The thing is as we know many weapon mods include a team to create or they wouldn't even exist in the first place.They usually have anywhere from 3-5 different modders working on it that all specialize on something different. We are talking about the person who modeled it (in most cases isn't even part of the fallout community or was assets allowed to be used from other games), the texture artist, the guy who does the ck work, and most notably the animator which there are very far and few in the community. Is this type of work going to then fall on some Beth employee to animate or is basically everyone in the community that can't do EVERY aspect of a weapon on their own out luck to apply? They need to clarify stuff like this so people know if they are even eligible to apply, if Beth won't help out its crossing almost everyone off the list despite the weapon category for Fallout 4 being one of the biggest categories of content.

 

Beth already said you can't sell any free mods on this CC so that also crosses off the list any resources like animation files from existing guns or models people use to make a weapon mod from. Its gotta be 100% scratch meaning the model, textures, ck work, and the rarest of them all animations are all new and more importantly complete. Either this means any weapons in the CC will be using vanilla animations (which really don't work well with new gun models) or Beth will somehow take on part of the work to get it done maybe. Either way you need to know how to make an entire weapon on your own or somehow convince a bunch of modders who do bits and pieces for free to hop on the bandwagon and dedicate who knows how long to a contract to make a weapon for the CC then. The end result will be less free mods and those who can make said free mods less available over time.

 

 

Exclusive Tools/information from Creation Club:

More concerning to me are the tools that creation club users may get to use or keep. These could be tools that if the free modding community had would make life a lot easier. I hope we don't see a divide between the haves and have nots all because some got to partake in CC while others would have loved to use them as well but got declined or don't require the necessary things Beth may be looking for. This does not just end with tools but information as well. Will we see a new secret veil where in the community only a select few know how to do things or do mods better because they have the information and are unwilling to share or under NDA cannot disclose? I don't see how this 'benefits' free modding, if anything it will hurt it with this type of tiered system in place. Sure the paid mods 1.0 from 2015 was awful but at least anyone could hop in if they so chose. Now it seems like it will be very inclusive which in terms means anyone not part of it can face side effects that were not foreseen, only time will tell really.

 

It is great we at least have the CK and if it was not for a determined community to investigate, create, and share information/tools made by the community we would not be able to do stuff like make nif model conversions, create armors, add new animations, and spread the wealth through tutorials. Just think how much better it would be with tools streamlined for the game. Of course those type of tools will probably only be allowed to be used for mods that will get Beth money despite the fact those same tools in the hands of many modders could really create some great stuff.

 

The obvious answer is "well duh they get to use better tools its a premium paid service". I still don't like the fact that good modders out there that if they had said info or tools could provide the community exactly what they want but because Beth is making no money its going to be closed off forever. If its content or an idea Beth doesn't like (despite community wanting it) it won't matter, its all about the money at that point nothing matters past it.

 

 

tl:dr

This is all just thoughts right now but to assume nothing will change with free modding would be naive. This new ecosystem of paid mods to not paid mods will have an effect on the community either positive or negative because at its core it affects those very people that make said mods.

 

You post some very good points, I really like it, although I need to, well give you bad "news" regarding one your point about information sharing. One of the modder (I won't name it) who is in CC post this regarding this issue (quote):

 

- I've signed a contract to work with Bethesda, but I cannot reveal anything about the details

- No, I can't talk about anything related to my work there, the Club, or the Trailer

 

Sooo yeah, this sound like NDA to me, the "new secret veil" is coming to life pretty fast.

 

PS: please don't blow your mind, keep calm

[Kalell]

I imagine that most of the modders that get accepted into CC will leave the modding community. They will have access to better tools, info, and resources, but since they will no longer be part of the community you can't really consider them as having an advantage. People in CC will be considered developers instead of mod authors. It is sad that we will be losing a lot of the better mod authors though.

Edited June 16, 2017 by Kalell

[SMB92]

I imagine that most of the modders that get accepted into CC will leave the modding community. They will have access to better tools, info, and resources, but since they will no longer be part of the community you can't really consider them as having an advantage. People in CC will be considered developers instead of mod authors. It is sad that we will be losing a lot of the better mod authors though.

Hopefully the morally obliged among the better modders will hang back. But again I go back to my analogy of handing out handy from a seedy white van. I do see Nexus becoming a dumping ground for Joe and his first attempt at blender while everything else will be monetized. The more I think about it the more depressing it is. Gotta start looking for a new pastime.

 

We can still have hope though. I'd like to see another healthy petition delivered up to ZeniMax if things go the way we suspect. Then they'll be in a worse league/have worse rep than EA and the likes. Will they care though, Idk. So far they seem to stop at nothing.

[minngarm]

You people fail to realize that this is how contract work works in the real world. The CC is just a extension of that same work towards making continuous content for their titles. As for us Mod authors (not mod users) were given a chance to finally get in on the same work the professionals have been doing for decades now. CC was never focused on mod authors it was more of a tip of the hat inclusion for them, and a great way to provide a easy way into the game design field for hobbiests and new talent that cant get a job in it by traditional requirements.

[MightyZ0G]

Take2 have just served a cease and desist on Open IV and declared that modding is not fair use under copyright.

 

[TLOak]

You people fail to realize that this is how contract work works in the real world. The CC is just a extension of that same work towards making continuous content for their titles. As for us Mod authors (not mod users) were given a chance to finally get in on the same work the professionals have been doing for decades now. CC was never focused on mod authors it was more of a tip of the hat inclusion for them, and a great way to provide a easy way into the game design field for hobbiests and new talent that cant get a job in it by traditional requirements.

I'm in a tough position here.

 

I have an immense respect for modders and their craft but I also think you're being woefully naive if you think there is any benevolence in Bethesda's plan here.

 

If you're right then it is no doubt positive for mod authors being able to get a step into the door, as it were, I however don't think it is that at all. It feeds back to my central annoyance if this was about looking for talent why wouldn't CC be for the ambitious portfolio mods, expansive quest mods and such, rather than... what are at worst are paid mods and best micro-transactions?

 

Also, again my belief and understanding, you are not being hired by Bethesda proper instead you're on, as has been described here, freelance contracts.

 

I am also... unhappy with you suggestion that this is nothing out of the ordinary ("extension of the same work" etc etc), a matter of course as it were. I would have thought most people would recognise this as a departure from any normalcy with these games. We all know that modding has existed and led to the longevity of games but now Bethesda seem, I stress seem, to be taking it over in place of their own contributions in the form of appreciable DLCs.

 

However. If you, a mod author, are brought in to design quests, lands, story content then all my fears will be for nothing and I will be happy. If, on the otherhand, you ( or anyone else) is contracted to create 10 different skins for T-60 armour, or a new gun, poster, bed etc etc etc then I will feel vindicated.

 

At the moment I can't say which would give me greater satisfaction.

 

 

 

[Quincy1978]

i'm looking forward to this tbh.

[Gruffydd]

Take2 have just served a cease and desist on Open IV and declared that modding is not fair use under copyright.

 

 

That's not entirely how I understand it, and the video maker's take on fair use doesn't seem to match what was covered in my media law class or on the copyright.gov webpage.

My understanding was that is was more of a EULA violation than copyright, because reverse engineering had created a tool that could allow people to take and use content from the online version offline, and that some irresponsible folks had used the tool to do just that. Or something like that.

Because the reverse engineering was specifically prohibited in the EULA, it voided their contract to have and use the game, and thus made it a violation of copyright, similar to the old bnetd.org Blizzard suit. Reverse engineering itself is apparently something of a gray area if there's no mention of it in the EULA, but in this case there was specific prohibition of it, and the modders were in violation of that clause. Once the EULA is violated, there's also the possibility of other DMCA problems.

 

There's a good article about all of this at https://www.polygon.com/2017/3/23/15034994/blizzard-mods-bnetd-org-lawsuit-world-of-warcarft.

 

There's also an older article with a lot of stuff on the topic at http://digitalcommons.law.byu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2915&context=lawreview.

 

Anyway, the key point seems to be that acceptance of a EULA can be considered legally waiving your right to claim fair use later if what you did is in violation of the EULA.

This may be where the Open IV people ran into their problem.

 

I noticed that the Open IV folks were very clear that they didn't violate any Russian laws. The problem here is that Russia is a party to the Berne Convention, and as such, because the work in question originated in the USA, then American laws as well as Russian laws apply for purposes of copyright.

 

What all of this means is that we shouldn't start to panic and think that there's a war on modding, or that modding has suddenly been declared illegal. Nothing has changed. This is an individual case, not industry-wide, and, while the whole thing is unfortunate (especially for GTA players and the Open IV folks), it's not the end of modding as a whole.