About Akavir ...

[bpestilence]

Damn, that is a good point. It really wouldn't be Elder Scrolls off the continent... Although there would always be the possibility of a spin-off.

[RighthandofSithis]

How can you be sure the Elder Scrolls were written in Tamriel? They are Aedric artifacts. The people of the other continents may worship the Aedra (Atmorans may do in some way)? And even then, how do you know they were written on Tamriel? My guess would be they were written in Atherius, or even before Nirn was created.

 

And mysterious Akavir is not as reliable as you may think. It is still riddled with contradictions, and some sources may be biased and/or legend. Did anyone read my entire post?

 

And check the article on akavir at the UESPwiki, it states that facts about akavir are almost impossible to establish.

 

It has been established that the Akaviri are based on various East Asian nations. Tsaesci are obviously Japan. Kamal resembles Mongolia (as they are depicted as horrible warmongers). Ka Po' Tun is China, as they greatly respect Dragons. Tang Mo may be Korea (not sure) as they have been at war with everyone else, and are now allied to Ka Po' Tun (If they broke this alliance, it would be even more like Ancient Korea).

Edited March 15, 2012 by RighthandofSithis

[RighthandofSithis]

Alduin's Wall depicts that Dragonguard (At the time Akaviri [Tsaesci]) as human, with the usual human limbs (and Esbern points out that thwy are the Dragonguard).

It seems likely that the Tsaeci are not human based on evidence of their extremely long lives and statements about "coiled kings" and "snake captains" in Remanada. But humans and mer have the same usual number of limbs despite being different species, so the limb count is not a sufficient test for determining humanity. A time-worn carving of armored, helmeted warriors on a wall would not allow one to distinguish easily between humans and another species of similar build. I don't think Alduin's Wall can be taken as a smoking gun proving the humanity of the Tsaeci.

 

Furthermore, at the time Alduin's Wall was constructed the Dragonguard had been in Skyrim for around 100 years, correct? (From the time of Reman I to Reman II, with at least one emperor in between). Unless there were many Tsaesci survivors of the battle at Pale Pass -- enough to form a viable breeding population -- wouldn't most of the Dragonguard in 1E 2812-2818 have been humans recruited from the population of the Empire? If so, would it be any surprise if they depicted members of the Dragonguard in a far-future time as being human, regardless of the appearance of the Tsaeci?

 

But by the Tsaesci having limbs, it proves they are not snakes. But yes, their long lives do make a statement. And I will accept they may not be 'human' in some respects.

 

And there is evidence that at the time of the building of Aldiun's wall, the dragongurad were Akaviri. The Annals of the Dragonguard states:

"2805: The Temple is besieged. The fool Kalien was sent to Winterhold and sacked the city. There was a reason he was denied entry into the Dragonguard. But the local people do not count the difference between Akaviri. All our years of building up trust with people of Skyrim are now for naught."

Edited March 15, 2012 by RighthandofSithis

[BrettM]

Even if the Elder Scrolls were written in Tamriel, how do we know that they all stayed in Tamriel over the course of millenia? The world is full of artifacts that seem to have a life of their own and move around at will, disappearing for decades or centuries and then reappearing, and this is particularly true of Aedric and Daedric artifacts.

 

Whether the Akaviri worship the Aedra or not seems irrelevant, since the Aedra DID create all of Nirn (all of Mundus, for that matter) and not just Tamriel. It's hard to believe they would have left all the other continents out of their prophecies.

 

@RightHandofSithis: I was particularly thinking of that passage when I wrote my post. Certainly the writer was Akaviri and thought of the Dragonguards as an Akaviri organization. But, it also indicates that they were recruiting or there would have been no decision to make as to whether to let Kalien join or not.

 

It also raises the question of how Kalien, who is apparently Akaviri himself, got there if he was not a Dragonguard to begin with. Did the original invasion include non-Dragonguard members? I don't recall any source that suggests this. But there is also no source to suggest that other Akaviri came later, after matters were settled following the battle at Pale Pass.

 

In any case, authors may be using the term "snakes" very loosely, just as many Nords refer to Argonians as "lizards". The term does not necessarily mean that Akaviri don't have limbs, but simply that they have various characteristics associated with snakes despite a roughly-human form.

Edited March 15, 2012 by BrettM

[sajuukkhar9000]

You are all forgetting the very real possibility that the snake like tasecti mantled the humans of akavair when they ate them.

 

Just as Talos could only be seen as a Dragon to some, the snake people have changed their appearance to some as well because of their actions in life.

[magiii]

about the dragon guard. there were some men on akavir until they got eaten by the Tsaeci.

 

the elder scrolls are beings of "unknown origin and number". and i remember somewhere in the game its mentioned that they are shards of creation being left out or something like this(if that true they have never been "written").

[RighthandofSithis]

Even if the Elder Scrolls were written in Tamriel, how do we know that they all stayed in Tamriel over the course of millenia? The world is full of artifacts that seem to have a life of their own and move around at will, disappearing for decades or centuries and then reappearing, and this is particularly true of Aedric and Daedric artifacts.

 

Whether the Akaviri worship the Aedra or not seems irrelevant, since the Aedra DID create all of Nirn (all of Mundus, for that matter) and not just Tamriel. It's hard to believe they would have left all the other continents out of their prophecies.

 

@RightHandofSithis: I was particularly thinking of that passage when I wrote my post. Certainly the writer was Akaviri and thought of the Dragonguards as an Akaviri organization. But, it also indicates that they were recruiting or there would have been no decision to make as to whether to let Kalien join or not.

 

It also raises the question of how Kalien, who is apparently Akaviri himself, got there if he was not a Dragonguard to begin with. Did the original invasion include non-Dragonguard members? I don't recall any source that suggests this. But there is also no source to suggest that other Akaviri came later, after matters were settled following the battle at Pale Pass.

 

In any case, authors may be using the term "snakes" very loosely, just as many Nords refer to Argonians as "lizards". The term does not necessarily mean that Akaviri don't have limbs, but simply that they have various characteristics associated with snakes despite a roughly-human form.

 

 

On the topic of some Akaviri not being members of the Dragongurad, remember, they have been in Tamriel for a while, and they would have had time to reproduce, keeping in mind the defeat of Pale Pass was a result of an Avalanche, and there were enough survivors to enable Reman to conquer the rest of Tamriel (yes, he did utilise their superior equipment and tactics, but to conquer a continent, you need large numbers). Thus they would have had the population to reproduce. And the first edition of the Pocket Guide to the Empire states that some noble Cyrodiilic families claim to have a direct link to the Akaviri (thus it may be possible for a union between an Akaviri and another Tamrielic race to result in a 'half-caste' that may have strong Akaviri features).

 

And yes, the Akaviri may have mantled the human's of Akavir. But metamorphosis into a completely different creature as a result of eating them. Yes some weird stuff happens in TES (like the disappearance of entire races [mostly] in the blink of an eye) , but do you really think that would happen?

 

And my reference to the Elder Scrolls being written was simply for the lack of a better term at the time. I'd imagine they may not have been written as such. On the other hand, they are surrounded in as much (or more) mystery than Akavir. Therefore, they may have been written by the Aedra. We don't know.

 

And just to nitpick, I think the Elder Scrolls do tend to remain in one place (surprising for a Tamrielic artifact, I know). The Imperial Palace has managed to retain one, as had the Dwemer, and I'd assume the Colledge of Winterhold 9if the player gives them one).

[RighthandofSithis]

Even if the Elder Scrolls were written in Tamriel, how do we know that they all stayed in Tamriel over the course of millenia? The world is full of artifacts that seem to have a life of their own and move around at will, disappearing for decades or centuries and then reappearing, and this is particularly true of Aedric and Daedric artifacts.

 

Whether the Akaviri worship the Aedra or not seems irrelevant, since the Aedra DID create all of Nirn (all of Mundus, for that matter) and not just Tamriel. It's hard to believe they would have left all the other continents out of their prophecies.

 

@RightHandofSithis: I was particularly thinking of that passage when I wrote my post. Certainly the writer was Akaviri and thought of the Dragonguards as an Akaviri organization. But, it also indicates that they were recruiting or there would have been no decision to make as to whether to let Kalien join or not.

 

It also raises the question of how Kalien, who is apparently Akaviri himself, got there if he was not a Dragonguard to begin with. Did the original invasion include non-Dragonguard members? I don't recall any source that suggests this. But there is also no source to suggest that other Akaviri came later, after matters were settled following the battle at Pale Pass.

 

In any case, authors may be using the term "snakes" very loosely, just as many Nords refer to Argonians as "lizards". The term does not necessarily mean that Akaviri don't have limbs, but simply that they have various characteristics associated with snakes despite a roughly-human form.

 

 

On the topic of some Akaviri not being members of the Dragongurad, remember, they had been in Tamriel for a while (the invasion began 91 years before the birth of Reman II), and they would have had time to reproduce, keeping in mind the defeat of Pale Pass was a result of an Avalanche, and there were enough survivors to enable Reman to conquer the rest of Tamriel (yes, he did utilise their superior equipment and tactics, but to conquer a continent, you need large numbers). Thus they would have had the population to reproduce. And the first edition of the Pocket Guide to the Empire states that some noble Cyrodiilic families claim to have a direct link to the Akaviri (thus it may be possible for a union between an Akaviri and another Tamrielic race to result in a 'half-caste' that may have strong Akaviri features).

 

And yes, the Akaviri may have mantled the human's of Akavir. But metamorphosis into a completely different creature as a result of eating them. Yes some weird stuff happens in TES (like the disappearance of entire races [mostly] in the blink of an eye) , but do you really think that would happen?

 

And my reference to the Elder Scrolls being written was simply for the lack of a better term at the time. I'd imagine they may not have been written as such. On the other hand, they are surrounded in as much (or more) mystery than Akavir. Therefore, they may have been written by the Aedra. We don't know.

 

And just to nitpick, I think the Elder Scrolls do tend to remain in one place (surprising for a Tamrielic artifact, I know). The Imperial Palace has managed to retain one, as had the Dwemer, and I'd assume the Colledge of Winterhold 9if the player gives them one).

[sajuukkhar9000]

And yes, the Akaviri may have mantled the human's of Akavir. But metamorphosis into a completely different creature as a result of eating them. Yes some weird stuff happens in TES (like the disappearance of entire races [mostly] in the blink of an eye) , but do you really think that would happen?

The Champion of Cyrodill was able to turn from ANY of the races, including Khajiit and Argonian, and either gender, into a Imperial Male when he/she became Sheogorath.

 

A Ka Po' Tun Tiger-like "cat folk" was able to transform into a dragon when he mantled Akatosh and became Tosh Raka.

 

Tiber Septim is noted to have been only visible as a dragon to many, and he was able to transform into a god when he mantled Lorkhan.

Edited March 16, 2012 by sajuukkhar9000

[BrettM]

And just to nitpick, I think the Elder Scrolls do tend to remain in one place (surprising for a Tamrielic artifact, I know). The Imperial Palace has managed to retain one, as had the Dwemer, and I'd assume the Colledge of Winterhold 9if the player gives them one).

I should have expressed myself more clearly. The issue I had in mind isn't really the possibility of ES moving around on their own (though they seem good at that when anyone tries to count them), but the fact that they are coveted artifacts. Over the course of time they get lost and found by researchers, thieves, heroes, and villains. There is no reason that one or more could not have ended up anywhere on Nirn, even if every one of them originated in Tamriel. One can imagine several simple scenarios by which one might have gotten to Akavir. Suppose one of the battlemages at Ionith had brought one with him "just in case" -- like Felldir the Old at the Throat of the World -- and lost it during the disaster?

 

As for the Dragonguard having the population to reproduce, that is one of the things that is puzzling me. If this is true, why are there no full-blooded Akaviri living in Tamriel now? It is a bit hard to believe that a viable population of very long-lived beings would have completely assimilated into the human population so long ago that there aren't even any clear records of their appearance and nature. We know Akaviri were still around at the beginning of the Septim dynasty and they were involved in getting Tiber Septim on the throne. The historical record for most of the third era is pretty good, yet the Akaviri seem to have disappeared completely early on. Even the Cyrodiil families that claim to have blood ties to them don't seem to have any solid documentation of this or the Tsaeci would not be as much of a mystery as they are.