International Relations Omnibus

[ginnyfizz]

You are misrepresenting what has been said. It has been specifically stated by several people that they do not think that The West is perfect and in particular, voices have been raised saying specifically that we should not interfere in other countries to the degree to which we do.

 

Now do tell me, would you actually like to live in one of those theocracies that you seem to wish to champion? I sure has hell wouldn't. Might I remind you that these countries are all somewhat fond of thundering away at the United Nations when they think that they have been wronged, but have a remarkable ability for selective amnesia/outright ignoring regarding the below linked;-

 

United Nations Agreements on Human Rights

 

I presume that you think, for example, that the treatment of women in much of the Middle East, Iran and Afghanistan, and the fact that slavery is still practised in some of those countries, is OK because it is their way and we shouldn't dictate to them? That's just two types of human rights abuse that are perpetrated in some of those delightful (not) theocracies.

 

Sorry, I just cannot accept that in this day and age sadists, bigots and dictators should be allowed to hide behind the excuse of "It's our culture, so don't try and impose your values on us and leave us to slaughter and mutilate as we please...". We're damned if we do, and damned if we don't. Nor do I believe that ancient ethnic,tribal and/or religious feuds are a legitimate excuse for bloodletting - in my part of the world we had a rather bad experience with that in Ireland,with the Troubles.

 

Would you suggest that, for example, Western courts should stand aside in the case of the so called "Honour killings", which in Britain have certainly become a pretty big problem? (I'm pleased to say that most perpetrators tend to go down the cell steps for a very long term of imprisonment as things currently stand.)

 

I very much support the balanced viewpoints expressed by Wizard, Majkrazam and sukeban.

[Tidus44]

You are misrepresenting what has been said. It has been specifically stated by several people that they do not think that The West is perfect and in particular, voices have been raised saying specifically that we should not interfere in other countries to the degree to which we do.

 

Now do tell me, would you actually like to live in one of those theocracies that you seem to wish to champion? I sure has hell wouldn't. Might I remind you that these countries are all somewhat fond of thundering away at the United Nations when they think that they have been wronged, but have a remarkable ability for selective amnesia/outright ignoring regarding the below linked;-

 

United Nations Agreements on Human Rights

 

I presume that you think, for example, that the treatment of women in much of the Middle East, Iran and Afghanistan, and the fact that slavery is still practised in some of those countries, is OK because it is their way and we shouldn't dictate to them? That's just two types of human rights abuse that are perpetrated in some of those delightful (not) theocracies.

 

Sorry, I just cannot accept that in this day and age sadists, bigots and dictators should be allowed to hide behind the excuse of "It's our culture, so don't try and impose your values on us and leave us to slaughter and mutilate as we please...". We're damned if we do, and damned if we don't. Nor do I believe that ancient ethnic,tribal and/or religious feuds are a legitimate excuse for bloodletting - in my part of the world we had a rather bad experience with that in Ireland,with the Troubles.

 

Would you suggest that, for example, Western courts should stand aside in the case of the so called "Honour killings", which in Britain have certainly become a pretty big problem? (I'm pleased to say that most perpetrators tend to go down the cell steps for a very long term of imprisonment as things currently stand.)

 

I very much support the balanced viewpoints expressed by Wizard, Majkrazam and sukeban.

 

 

You got all that from me saying I believe the west interferes in other cultures mostly for the wrong reasons and in the wrong way? I am quite impressed.

 

I'm also glad you support a balanced viewpoint because yours is probably the most balanced I've seen. Thank you for your very polite and calmly expressed opinions and for doing so in such a nice way.

 

And I really think you do know a lot about the Troubles - I pretty much got treated with the same politeness and calm when I was there, as you have demonstrated in this post.

[Lisnpuppy]

Ok folks, Disagree with each others posts and debate that. Quit trying to infer or making "oh so polite and nice no one will notice I am giving a dig." posts.

 

Or as we say around here in the country...Don't start none there won't be none.

 

That is all.

 

~Lisnpuppy

[dazzerfong]

Ginny, what you said works both ways. In their opinion, the Western world is corrupt and rampants with 'undesirables'. It's all down to whose opinion you interpret, with you (and the majority of people on this forum) regarding the 'western' method as the more 'correct' version.

[ginnyfizz]

I simply don't accept that routine human rights abuses can, in this day and age, ever be excused on cultural grounds. Try telling that to the Afghan girl who had her nose cut off, just because she was a woman and didn't do as her menfolk thought she should. That is rather different from what they would please to call Western corruption, undesirables and decadence. Not that corruption and decadence are Western exclusives of course. And I am well aware that there are also human rights abuses in Western countries too.

 

It is just the oldest trick in the book, hiding human rights abuses such as torture, murder, sexism, racism behind the excuse of "That's our culture and how we do things here."

[dazzerfong]

@ Ginny:

 

And what do you call Britain's old legal system allowing slavery? Back then, people thought there was nothing wrong in it. Personally, in my opinion, we're all wrong. But then again, that includes me.

 

We simply don't know whether oppression in some countries is just normal, or it's forced. Because of international media, I'm more inclined to consider the latter, but if it's ongoing for many years, it's more likely the former.

 

In the end, because most of us are brought up with Western standards, we're undeniably biased towards our way of life, whether or not we acknowledge it.

[Flintlockecole]

I simply don't accept that routine human rights abuses can, in this day and age, ever be excused on cultural grounds. Try telling that to the Afghan girl who had her nose cut off, just because she was a woman and didn't do as her menfolk thought she should. That is rather different from what they would please to call Western corruption, undesirables and decadence. Not that corruption and decadence are Western exclusives of course. And I am well aware that there are also human rights abuses in Western countries too.

 

It is just the oldest trick in the book, hiding human rights abuses such as torture, murder, sexism, racism behind the excuse of "That's our culture and how we do things here."

Problem is with trying to police the world is neither I, you, the people down the street or a committee of people have the right to dictate what goes on with people elsewhere in the world. They'll do whatever they want with their backyard/home/society as they see fit even if it does go against the standards most people of the western world live by. I by all rights I'm not going to jump over several fences to set some guys shed on fire because the size and colour of it offends me, I leave well enough alone. If people want their freedoms let them pick up whatever they please and let them take them for themselves, but until then it's no use spending money on something that isn't/won't last more than a decade if that. Freedom can never be given, it has to be taken by the people who want it.

[ginnyfizz]

@ Ginny:

 

And what do you call Britain's old legal system allowing slavery? Back then, people thought there was nothing wrong in it. Personally, in my opinion, we're all wrong. But then again, that includes me.

 

We simply don't know whether oppression in some countries is just normal, or it's forced. Because of international media, I'm more inclined to consider the latter, but if it's ongoing for many years, it's more likely the former.

 

In the end, because most of us are brought up with Western standards, we're undeniably biased towards our way of life, whether or not we acknowledge it.

 

But that's my entire point. Beliefs about what is right and what is wrong evolve over time. Britain was brought to see the error of her ways over slavery and bowed to the pressure to abolish it. Just as she was brought to see that colonialism, claiming sovereignty over other nations, was no longer appropriate and gave up her empire. And if, to take an example that is very much present day, if Australia decide, as well they might, that they no longer want the Queen as head of state, then that is entirely up to them and will happen.

 

So if it is OK to tell Britain that they mustn't do this that or the other, or they must stop doing this that or the other, and to expect them to evolve and grow up and grow out of their wicked slave trading and imperialistic ways, then why is it wrong to tell other countries that oppression of minorities on the grounds of sex, religion or ethnicity is bang out of order? Actually it amounts to precisely the same thing as you are castigating Britain for. But we stopped doing it many years ago!

 

I simply don't accept that routine human rights abuses can, in this day and age, ever be excused on cultural grounds. Try telling that to the Afghan girl who had her nose cut off, just because she was a woman and didn't do as her menfolk thought she should. That is rather different from what they would please to call Western corruption, undesirables and decadence. Not that corruption and decadence are Western exclusives of course. And I am well aware that there are also human rights abuses in Western countries too.

 

It is just the oldest trick in the book, hiding human rights abuses such as torture, murder, sexism, racism behind the excuse of "That's our culture and how we do things here."

Problem is with trying to police the world is neither I, you, the people down the street or a committee of people have the right to dictate what goes on with people elsewhere in the world. They'll do whatever they want with their backyard/home/society as they see fit even if it does go against the standards most people of the western world live by. I by all rights I'm not going to jump over several fences to set some guys shed on fire because the size and colour of it offends me, I leave well enough alone. If people want their freedoms let them pick up whatever they please and let them take them for themselves, but until then it's no use spending money on something that isn't/won't last more than a decade if that. Freedom can never be given, it has to be taken by the people who want it.

 

I didn't actually say that we should police the world and actually make people do as they are told by force. I don't know wherever you got that idea. I am saying that we have the absolute right to state that we are against the routine abuse of human rights in certain countries (there have been numerous resolutions doing just that in the UN, unless of course your name is Bashar al Assad and you have friends on the Security Council) and, if anything, to rather refuse to deal with them whilever they continue to perpetrate their abuses, rather than invade and force them to comply. Sanctions may or may not work, they may even hurt the people you are concerned about in the first place, but they are recognised as a way of making your point.

 

IDK, maybe I'm just a soft hearted old trout or something, as well as being a feminist (if not a strident one)and a person who just believes that live and let live needs to go both ways. And that simply doesn't happen. Very easy to say let them take their freedoms for themselves, well that is made next to impossible for females in many of these places because they are frequently disenfranchised, denied access to education, not allowed out without a male relative in tow, and simply murdered or mutilated if they try and kick over the traces. They have no voice, and rely on those of us who have liberty to speak for them.

[HeyYou]

Some folks on a military base burn some korans, and the muslim world is up in arms, declaring jihad, and wanting heads to roll.

 

Some muslim folks burn bibles, american flags, call for "death to america", etc..... and pretty much nothing happens. It makes it into the news for a day or so, then it's gone. Does america get an apology? Anything at all? Nope. Nada.

 

If you want to hold folks accountable for their actions, according to YOUR individual rules, then by gosh by golly, you had best be prepared to reciprocate. Which I am not going to hold my breath waiting for........

 

The major trouble with the west is that they DO think they have all the answers. (at least, the governments do) and wish to enforce their view of 'how things should be' on everyone else, even if it is at gunpoint. We are trying to affect change, on peoples that have lived the same lifestyle for centuries. We can't expect to waltz in, kill some folks, and have everything now be how we think it should be. NOTHING changes over night. Certainly not social values. You CANNOT FORCE CHANGE on a people. It simply doesn't work. All we are succeeding at doing is pissing off yet some more people, and adding fuel to the fire. We find ourselves in a place where doing NOTHING would actually be better...... In my opinion.

[Ihoe]

@ Ginny:

 

And what do you call Britain's old legal system allowing slavery? Back then, people thought there was nothing wrong in it. Personally, in my opinion, we're all wrong. But then again, that includes me.

 

We simply don't know whether oppression in some countries is just normal, or it's forced. Because of international media, I'm more inclined to consider the latter, but if it's ongoing for many years, it's more likely the former.

 

In the end, because most of us are brought up with Western standards, we're undeniably biased towards our way of life, whether or not we acknowledge it.

 

But that's my entire point. Beliefs about what is right and what is wrong evolve over time. Britain was brought to see the error of her ways over slavery and bowed to the pressure to abolish it. Just as she was brought to see that colonialism, claiming sovereignty over other nations, was no longer appropriate and gave up her empire. And if, to take an example that is very much present day, if Australia decide, as well they might, that they no longer want the Queen as head of state, then that is entirely up to them and will happen.

 

So if it is OK to tell Britain that they mustn't do this that or the other, or they must stop doing this that or the other, and to expect them to evolve and grow up and grow out of their wicked slave trading and imperialistic ways, then why is it wrong to tell other countries that oppression of minorities on the grounds of sex, religion or ethnicity is bang out of order? Actually it amounts to precisely the same thing as you are castigating Britain for. But we stopped doing it many years ago!

 

I simply don't accept that routine human rights abuses can, in this day and age, ever be excused on cultural grounds. Try telling that to the Afghan girl who had her nose cut off, just because she was a woman and didn't do as her menfolk thought she should. That is rather different from what they would please to call Western corruption, undesirables and decadence. Not that corruption and decadence are Western exclusives of course. And I am well aware that there are also human rights abuses in Western countries too.

 

It is just the oldest trick in the book, hiding human rights abuses such as torture, murder, sexism, racism behind the excuse of "That's our culture and how we do things here."

Problem is with trying to police the world is neither I, you, the people down the street or a committee of people have the right to dictate what goes on with people elsewhere in the world. They'll do whatever they want with their backyard/home/society as they see fit even if it does go against the standards most people of the western world live by. I by all rights I'm not going to jump over several fences to set some guys shed on fire because the size and colour of it offends me, I leave well enough alone. If people want their freedoms let them pick up whatever they please and let them take them for themselves, but until then it's no use spending money on something that isn't/won't last more than a decade if that. Freedom can never be given, it has to be taken by the people who want it.

 

 

IDK, maybe I'm just a soft hearted old trout or something, as well as being a feminist (if not a strident one)and a person who just believes that live and let live needs to go both ways. And that simply doesn't happen. Very easy to say let them take their freedoms for themselves, well that is made next to impossible for females in many of these places because they are frequently disenfranchised, denied access to education, not allowed out without a male relative in tow, and simply murdered or mutilated if they try and kick over the traces. They have no voice, and rely on those of us who have liberty to speak for them.

 

You can take Iran out of that context. Girls here have a Dozen of specialized NODET schools as Opposed to boys who have maybe 2-3 with the same overall capacity just here in Tehran. I could dare say Girls are much more Auspicious in mental health than boys, taking in many psychological variables based on tradition, culture etc. over 20% of the whole male population is mentally ill (not psychos). a sub-group of educational system, the group that all the Scientific Olympiads are organized by is given the least cut of the whole budget dedicated to the Ministry of Education, where mostly boys excel. (I'm not just making that up, for the last four years, of the whole 840 medals, 600+ were boys)

 

I'm ranting too much. But Please, Please, Let's cull information on divisions (I speak for the third largest Population in the traditional MidE) before generalizing a theory based on the whole group.

Edited February 26, 2012 by Ihoe