People on welfare, what is a good way to root out the life stylers?

[Dweedle]

Well, over here in New Zealand we have abit of a problem with the way our welfare and beneficarys work, somehow the system is supporting those who have been on a benefit(basically weekly money payments from Government/Taxpayer im not sure what they are called in other peoples countrys) well.. a lot of them don't deserve it imo, or arn't entitled to it.

 

But the problem is.. it is becoming very difficult for people to tell the difference between someone who is using the system legitimately and someone who is abusing it..

 

Now, a soloution that I and a lot of my fellow Kiwi's think will solve the problem is regular drug testing, much like how employed people must pass drug tests we think people on welfare should do the same.

 

Now, I dont know how bad drugs are in your guys nations, but over here in New Zealand there are a lot of people on welfare who use the money to buy Weed/Pot or w/e you call it.

 

But, if the Government did cut peoples benefits because they were caught smoking.. what happens to the children of these people? that is the one thing imo that will stop drug testings, because if these people dont have money then the kids dont get support (if they even get any with the parents drug habbits).

 

Now.. im not saying ALL welfare people are like this, im on a Student allowance and this is a form of welfare, and I used to be on a training incentive allowance before that, I think it is great that the Government supports people who want to make something of themselves, but I think there needs to be more incentive and I also think that people who sit around doing nothing to try get work should be forced(is that the right word?) to participate in work training programs or even courses such as the one I am doing (Business/Admin) and even though they may not want to have that as a career I think having skills is a good thing because it does help find a job.

 

Another thing.. is forced volunteer work a good option? I understand how some could possibly view it as slavery but I dont, I see volunteer work as a pay of paying back the community and country that has supported you while you look for work, also doing volunteer work is a great way to build up confidence and work skills and also get a reference. What do you guys think of this reasoning?

 

Anyway, another problem we have are some young women who seem to get pregnant to get the Domestic Purpose Benefit (DPB) which is a lot of extra money a week to support solo mothers, sadly there is a lot of these women out there who abuse this system and its the kids who suffer.

 

But, there are also a lot of good women out there who have fallen on hard times (leaving abusive relationships with kiddies to feed etc) and I think that not only do these women deserve our Governments support but I think they deserve more help too, this is why I would like to figure out a way to cut out the people who abuse this particular system so that the good mothers out there can get some more help financially, children are expensive and require lots of things that some single mothers just cannot afford without government help.

 

Im honestly not sure if this is debate material and im not sure on how good my wording is, but if anyone here has any good concrete ideas on ways to try cut out those who abuse the system and try get more help to those who need it then I would be greatful, im trying to put together a letter to send to our Prime Minister to try convince him to help those who need it and stop helping those who abuse the system.

 

Thanks.

[DeadSpace]

No good way to root out people who are abusing the system, except perhaps whether they're trying or not to get off it. drug testing? for real? not a solution, especially looking for just one drug like thc in their system. alcohol on the other hand causes more missed days of work, less likely to be able to find a steady job than pot ever has. much less be able to create a stable life. lived in nz for a bit, what i saw was one of the worst cases i've yet seen of alcohol dependence as something acceptable in a nation.

 

alcoholics tend to be the biggest abusers of welfare systems, as crack addicts or any of the other drugs that can cause severe addiction coupled with loss of ability to hold/find a job due to that addiction. pot, quite simply is the least of the worries. convenient scapegoat, but not a realistic one at all. eliminate welfare recipients ability to obtain alcohol first...yeah, that's not going to happen. but that is where the main problem lies. alcohol is easier (and legal) to obtain. far cheaper as well. allowing that dependence on both the state and their addiction to continue unabated.

Edited March 6, 2012 by DeadSpace

[myrmaad]

The point of stopping the abuse is to save tax dollars, right?

 

Do you know how much drug testing costs? So to weed out a few bad apples you're willing to put more strain on a system that is in fact designed to help the neediest and the poorest among us. Do you know what group is the largest group of the most needy? Children. Who is hurt most by drug abusers? Their children. This is the biggest failure in the system.

[Balagor]

Who got here first? The chicken or the egg?

What happens first? Do ypu become an alcoholic, then loose your job? Do you loose your job then become an alcoholic because life is a sucker?

It happens either way. World is not black and white, and not only for the strong ones. That´s why we have a society, to tend to the week ones too.

That day we will not do that anymore, is the day we say gooby to society, and hello to selfishness. That will be the day when we tend to our selfs and no one else.

I fear that day is near, however.

[Lisnpuppy]

The point of stopping the abuse is to save tax dollars, right?

 

Do you know how much drug testing costs? So to weed out a few bad apples you're willing to put more strain on a system that is in fact designed to help the neediest and the poorest among us. Do you know what group is the largest group of the most needy? Children. Who is hurt most by drug abusers? Their children. This is the biggest failure in the system.

 

 

I agree. Coming from a State that is know for its generational welfare families I am concerned with this matter. However drug and alcohol testing is VERY COSTLY as you must have a person administer the testing for each individual....as in you have to be in the bathroom with the person if you do a urine test or at least outside the door. Now if you do this on all the people on welfare say even 2/year it would be a massive undertaking on a system already giving too much work to its employees.

 

I don't think that is an answer.

[Balagor]

Not to mention that it would be too much of a bigbrother society. Also those abusing the system are perhaps less than 5 percent. It´s really nothing. Spend your money better.

[sukeban]

Really, I don't think there is a universally satisfying answer to this question.

 

Drug testing is a red herring. There are too few people for whom this is really an issue versus how many people use their money to buy to cigarettes and beer. Why nobody demands that we curb this practice is more a testament to the power of cigarette and alcohol companies than it is to their actual social harm, which is massive.

 

Being poor doesn't rule. I find this comes up whenever people argue that the rich shouldn't pay more in taxes because the very poor don't pay federal income tax at all (an American example). Just ask yourself, which would you rather be? Making $100,000 and having to pay 30% income tax on it or making $15,000 and having to pay zero? I know which I would prefer. In any case, each taxpayer is paying pennies on the dollar in order to prevent, essentially, total social collapse and revolution. That is what happens when people are left to starve to death or whatever the alternative to providing a minimum social safety net is. Nobody likes a deadbeat on welfare, but I would much prefer them to be smoking dope and leaving me alone rather than robbing me in the parking lot.

 

Much has been said recently about the moral collapse of America, especially amongst the very poor. But I would argue that people don't magically become deadbeats without any causality. To which I submit: see the decline in working class employment opportunities as well as the middle and lower classes' diminishing share of the nation's wealth vis-a-vis the very rich. Simply put, there are not really jobs available for all the un- and underemployed members of our societies, even if they wanted them. We are in the process of creating a permanent underclass in the West, comprised of the old members of the working class. Two generations ago, a high school dropout could work in an auto factory and make a middle class living. Today, that same individual will be either unemployed or making near-starvation wages in a low-skill customer service job. Though I've never been in that position, I would imagine that I too would hate my life and want to get drunk if I worked 50 hours a week at a convenience store.

 

TL;DR--Nobody likes deadbeats, but the alternative is far worse.

Edited March 6, 2012 by sukeban

[myrmaad]

In the US there is now TAN-F (which is the current 'welfare system' more accurately called Welfare to Work). If you do not fulfill the required activities it is discontinued, those activities include 'job skills' classes (not job training by the way), or school or a training program not funded by the program, if you don't have a job. If you are mentally incompetent you receive social security and not 'welfare', so it is not covered from this part of the federal budget at all.

 

I seriously doubt most people are able to discuss this issue intelligently, (perhaps people in this forum are a rare exception) because the media still portrays it as if there is such a thing as a "welfare queen having babies to get a bigger paycheck".

 

Not possible. TAN-F has a maximum of about 5 years and if you have a baby while you're receiving it, that child does not figure into a new benefit formula. In other words you are stuck with what you get. Suppose this yapping about curtailing access to contraceptives were to pass, you couldn't very well continue that limitation, could you?

 

Furthermore TAN-F covers families who are more accurately described as the "working poor". They have jobs but do not make enough money to pay for a roof over their heads plus basic necessities. I recently heard that in the recession the bulk of recipients are now in this working poor group.

 

http://www.acf.hhs.gov/programs/ofa/tanf/about.html

 

By the way, Florida tried the Mandatory Drug Testing "The Legislature in 1998 approved a drug-testing pilot project for people receiving temporary cash assistance. But the results were underwhelming. Of the 8,797 applicants screened for drugs, only 335 showed evidence of having a controlled substance in their system and failed the test, the Orlando Sentinel reported. The pilot project cost the state $2.7 million (or about $90 a test)."

[HeyYou]

It used to be having another baby would get you a 'raise'. That changed in the 80's or 90's.... Don't recall which......

 

What disgusts me is, DHS (the folks that administer welfare...) allows you to have SOME assets.... like, a home....... So there was the case of the family in Washington state, (I think) that was collecting welfare, yet living in a million dollar home......

 

Something that REALLY disturbs me though is, Alcoholism being ruled as a "disability"....... and folks being on Social Security because they are drunks......

[myrmaad]

It used to be having another baby would get you a 'raise'. That changed in the 80's or 90's.... Don't recall which......

 

What disgusts me is, DHS (the folks that administer welfare...) allows you to have SOME assets.... like, a home....... So there was the case of the family in Washington state, (I think) that was collecting welfare, yet living in a million dollar home......

 

Something that REALLY disturbs me though is, Alcoholism being ruled as a "disability"....... and folks being on Social Security because they are drunks......

 

It changed in the welfare reform act of 96.

 

I'm not aware of any of the alcoholics I know getting social security benefits for being alcoholics. In fact in the two states I'm most familiar with it's extremely difficult to get disability (for any reason) and you usually have to keep going back to press your case and prove it's valid, even if you have all the forms right the first time.

 

http://www.ssa.gov/pubs/10029.html#a0=1