People on welfare, what is a good way to root out the life stylers?

[myrmaad]

In a raid conducted at the home last week, a federal search warrant says agents were investigating the couple for mail fraud, Social Security fraud and theft of government funds.

 

So they were fraudsters. 'It happens.

 

So let's not provide milk for poor babies, because you know there might be two more cockroaches like that in the US somewhere. Who cares about the poor anyway?

 

 

/facetious off

 

I want to mention it's just as short-sighted and detrimental to people of a class or race to disregard their special circumstances. Blind justice is often injustice.

[sukeban]

For sure there are fraudulent collectors out there.

 

Ex:

 

I live on the west coast in the us. Most of my friends are hipsters. One of the most alluring cities for hipsters is Portland, Oregon. Many of my friends have moved there, and, as seems to be a cultural practice amongst the demographic in Portland, proceeded to live on welfare and food stamps--like fifteen to a house--so they can use the stamps for food and the money for their ridiculously low rent + alcohol and cigarettes.

 

Definitely only a small raw percentage of the population of the usa (and total recipients) doing this, but still quite eye-roll-inducing and annoying when you see it happen.

 

But again, that's not even close to the way that most people interact with safety net programs. And what's the alternative? Some Social-Darwinist dystopia where the rich harvest the unfortunate poor for their body parts, collecting their bodies from the sidewalks after every hard winter night? No way, that's terrible! So I'll gladly pay whatever small tax it takes to help people out who have fallen on hard times.

Edited March 7, 2012 by sukeban

[dunmermaiden]

My partner is in New Zealand, and has a mental illness (borderline personality disorder) and some other issues preventing her from working, so she needs her benefit, since I'm barely making it on my own and her family can't always help, either. If she could, she would work.

 

The kids always suffer in cases where things are taken away, and it's easy to say "Don't have children if you're poor" or "Well, you should have thought of that..." but it's never that easy in reality, despite what some would have you think, especially here in the states. I'm all for people doing what they can, if they can, including work, to support themselves.

 

Here--so far as I know--in the States, unless you have kids or a mental or physical disability, or you're retired and picking up social security/retirement fund, there's no assistance like there is over there. We have unemployment, at least.

 

I do think the volunteering in return is a good idea.

 

Fair enough for your Partner, that is what welfare is meant to do, help those who need it, it is a shame though that there is a bunch of people who abuse the system.. imo the people who suffer the most from system abuse are the people who are in legitimate need of help.

 

Is it possible for her to do volunteer work? voltunteer work can really boost peoples spirits.

 

I am said partner, have to admit your wording annoyed me a bit in your opening statement. Not everyone rips off the system here, I don't smoke I don't drink and I most certainly do not do drugs or illegal activities yet, with the way I barely make my ends meet every single week I have absolutely no idea how other people can afford these things especially on unemployment.

 

I agree with you about the dpb, that needs scrapping and some kind of referal from womans refuge instead to be allowed to those who need it to get out of a bad relationship.

 

There are articles everyday online in the news of jobs being axed, this is scary cause you know what? There are more poor people in nz that rely on the benefits to survive and if you take them away you take away peoples ability to survive and believe you me people aren't going to lay down and die quietly.

 

Instead us poor will be forced to rob the rich neughbourhoods just to eat and live, yes most of us will be caught because we're not professional theives however to send us to jail will cost the country 100k per year per person compared to the 15k per year on the benny.

 

Which makes more economic sense hmmm?

 

With Key's making the big reforms to make people homeless when there is only 1 homeless shelter in the whole of NZ is just disgraceful. It's a ticking time bomb, since jobs are few and far between and the cost of living so high.

 

I reckon if the poor get much more haters changing things well, I reckon it's time for pitchforks and torchs because I for one are sick to death of struggling to meet costs and people whining about how beneficeries all smoke dope and are drunkards and lazy.

 

We're not all like that.

 

I havn't been able to find work since 1991 when I fell ill, and got locked into the mental health system found out ten years on was misdiagnoised and forced to take drugs that zombiefied me for years and took away my life. I can't sue my parents for creating the enviroment based mental illness I have ether, nor can I sue for the years I spent misdiagnoised and in a hellish system that tortured me and others with their so called "treatments" Ever tryed electrc shock treatment, IPC lock up and hospitals and half way houses. They are nightmarish.

 

I managed to escape out of all that. Now my biggest threat to get past is trying to survive Key's welfare reforms, can I do it?

 

Yes, but I have no doubt I will be talking from jail once I can no longer afford to live.

 

It's disgraceful the govt forcing me and others to get into criminal activitys because we can't survive.

 

You think about that before you start pointing fingers next time. I mean really, how would you like to be forced into doing criminal activity because had no other way to make enough money to live?

 

Well I think you should re-read my statements as I have not tried to insult you or other legitimate beneficery's, im trying to find a way to help people like you who are honest people, i've been on a benefit now for 3 years myself and am hating it, but as a rural student I also don't have much of a choice.

 

I never said all people on benefit smoke dope and drink 24/7 but most do and this is what the general public see's and thus what the Government sees and sadly after my 2 years on a Winz funded course I have to agree that the majority of people there were stoners and drunks just there so they could keep getting money for their habit.

 

THESE are the people that need to have their benefits cut so people like YOU who do NOT do these things can get more assistance from the Government to help you more.

 

As many have stated that Drug tests would be too costly and not provide enough results then we must look to other options.

 

I do not want to see honest people like yourself & others suffer because of the actions of others.

 

I apologize if I have caused offense but I just want to figure out a way so that honest people like ourselves can get more help from the government, I am a student and it is going to be hard for me too because they have changed the ways student loans work, currently if a course is not 5 days a week it is counted as "part time" so they do not give you any money and currently I am fighting this because there is no jobs anywhere, im just lucky that im living with my parents so I dont have to worry about eviction.

 

Yeah well you are lucky you have family here you can fall back on if need arises all my family have immergrated to aussie so I don't have that luxury.

 

As for rooting out the bad eggs untill they ban alcohol and take away the DPB and force beneferies to have ether sterilisation or birth control you know there are no jobs and even overseas is hard to find a job so the only way to survive if you're young or under 35 is to get pregnant and list the father as unknown so you get a decent ammount to break even every week.

 

Course the govt lacks the balls to do this but instead has opted to force them to find non existant work.

 

Cost of living has risen so fast last 2 years than it ever has before and it's rising faster than what the benefits give. There's no incentive to work because mimium wage and petrel to get to work works out less than it is to sit on ones bum on the benny.

 

However if they raise the mimium wage, then even more jobs will be lost and go to places like China and the countrys that pay their people pittance and to be frank this places are killing the western countrys and I dare say it's a subtal type of war to make our economys go bust and cripple our defenses so that China come come in and set up and take over.

 

Take a real look at the situation.

 

It's those cheap chinese imports - once world trade was made and china starting trading goods here that was the begginging of the dollar shops - here and in the USA and other western shops, what did this do? It killed off industry in our countrys because we couldn't compete with the prices and the general public shopped at those cheap and nasty places.

 

And I mean cheap and nasty because the chinese goods use lead paint and poison our kids with their toys and toothpaste that has arsonic traces has been found in these cheap dollar stores.

 

And this is why there are no jobs and corperate in the western countrys don't give a stuff and outsource all they can to China and India and those places and make fatter profits but theres a social cost, because means citizens lose out on jobs and then it's creates the ammount of people stuck on a benefit - the only legal means of survival and this in turn cripples the country because how can it afford to help these people live and well I figure it will come to head and there will be riots and suchlike.

 

People can't see this happening but I can, because once you look at the entire situation you can see it's a subtal plan to collapse the west and then take over.

 

But anyways, this is why benefit numbers are rising.

[grannywils]

@Dweedle and @Nintii:

 

I cannot even begin to get involved in this particular thread, as I find it just too overwhelming on so many levels. However I feel that I must say this one thing. I know Nintii and consider her to be a friend. As a rule, our politics differ substantially, but I always respect her opinion and especially her remarkable intellect. I make it a point to watch for her posts, as they are always well thought out and uniquely presented. The one thing I am sure of is that she is no racist. When she speaks the truth, I believe that it would behoove all of us to listen to her, just as we listen to each other. I did not hear her make any racist remarks in her above post. Most of you who know me know that I do not cotton to racisim of any sort. As she said in her response, maybe you should listen to what she said rather than giving the old knee-jerk responses.

[JimboUK]

Welfare dependency is hugely complex issue, one that successive governments try to fix with simplistic solutions. I can't speak for other countries but in this country we have a massive problem with welfare dependency, largely down to the last government using it as a way of building a client class dependant on welfare and the party giving it to them. Welfare dependency needs a holistic approach, constantly bashing claimants doesn't solve anything.

 

Firstly you need to separate those capable of work from those who are not, that is no easy task if you don't want to punish those in genuine need along with the fraudsters. Currently our government are trying to do this by retesting those on health related welfare, sadly they've opted to make the system even more complex, this as usual results in those who know how to play the system continuing to abuse it while those in genuine need are being caught out. Also by making it harder to claim these benefits they ensure that people are far less likely to come off them once they get on. No one is going to risk being left with nothing if they do try and work so they don't bother.

 

Secondly work has to pay, you can't expect people to come off welfare if working will leave them worse off. The tax burden has shifted from the well off to the poor over the last twenty to thirty years as successive governments have used tax cuts to bribe voters and then made up the shortfall in revenue with stealth and other regressive taxes. A severe shortage of housing has pushed rents through the roof as well, rents are paid by the state if you're not working, take a job and you suddenly have to find that money yourself.

 

Thirdly is education, it's no good telling the unemployable to get a job, no one is going to give them one. Education could be made compulsory for those claiming non health related benefits, at least teach those victims of our failing schools how to read and write.

 

There are other issues, lack of childcare, silly employment laws and so on.

 

If governments approached the issue with the intention of fixing the problem then progress could be made, sadly they don't, they're either pandering the moron element in the press or looking to save money in the short term, neither of which will work.

 

A quick note on alcohol dependency and it being classed as an illness, if a severe alcoholic is forced to give up drinking overnight because they've no income then they run the risk of serious illness or even death. The shock to the system is huge, it can and does cause serious problems. It makes sense to treat it as an illness.

 

Apologies for rambling nature of the post, it's very late.

[Dweedle]

However if they raise the mimium wage, then even more jobs will be lost and go to places like China and the countrys that pay their people pittance and to be frank this places are killing the western countrys and I dare say it's a subtal type of war to make our economys go bust and cripple our defenses so that China come come in and set up and take over.

 

Take a real look at the situation.

 

It's those cheap chinese imports - once world trade was made and china starting trading goods here that was the begginging of the dollar shops - here and in the USA and other western shops, what did this do? It killed off industry in our countrys because we couldn't compete with the prices and the general public shopped at those cheap and nasty places.

 

And I mean cheap and nasty because the chinese goods use lead paint and poison our kids with their toys and toothpaste that has arsonic traces has been found in these cheap dollar stores.

 

The Chinese people have nothing to do with the state of welfare in New Zealand.. China are one of New Zealand's freinds and neighbours, there is no conspiracy or war going on, that is very paranoid imo.

 

Infact, Communism would be the best possible scenario for beneficerys like us, equal healthcare, equal education and equal rights.

 

Sadly this debate has taken a turn I didn't anticipate, I didn't think people would bring up races or start blaming my whanau for the situation.

 

Im not participating anymore on this particular debate anymore, wish I didnt bring it up.

Edited March 8, 2012 by Dweedle

[dunmermaiden]

However if they raise the mimium wage, then even more jobs will be lost and go to places like China and the countrys that pay their people pittance and to be frank this places are killing the western countrys and I dare say it's a subtal type of war to make our economys go bust and cripple our defenses so that China come come in and set up and take over.

 

Take a real look at the situation.

 

It's those cheap chinese imports - once world trade was made and china starting trading goods here that was the begginging of the dollar shops - here and in the USA and other western shops, what did this do? It killed off industry in our countrys because we couldn't compete with the prices and the general public shopped at those cheap and nasty places.

 

And I mean cheap and nasty because the chinese goods use lead paint and poison our kids with their toys and toothpaste that has arsonic traces has been found in these cheap dollar stores.

 

The Chinese people have nothing to do with the state of welfare in New Zealand.. China are one of New Zealand's freinds and neighbours, there is no conspiracy or war going on, that is very paranoid imo.

 

Infact, Communism would be the best possible scenario for beneficerys like us, equal healthcare, equal education and equal rights.

 

Sadly this debate has taken a turn I didn't anticipate, I didn't think people would bring up races or start blaming my whanau for the situation.

 

Im not participating anymore on this particular debate anymore, wish I didnt bring it up.

 

You can bury your head in the sand to the facts however the truth of the situation remains is that China's cheap labour is taking away jobs in our country.

[Nintii]

@ Grannywils ... thank you so very much, I'm definitely no racist at all ... despite the negative influences in my life as a kid to follow that route ... I remember staying out

late as a young girl and my mother locking me outside while telling me how the "so and so's" were going to get me and that "that will teach you a lesson for staying

out late" ... and that staying out late was 5:00PM.

 

Well the only alternative she offered was for me to come inside but then that meant a leather strap ... and if you knew my mother it wasn't a quick "one two" either, it

was something you carry with you for the rest of your life ... any wonder I like whips - nah just joking lol.

The prospect of being beaten black and blue was nothing compared to the "horror" stories she painted if "those people" got me, so I took the beating.

That type of conditioning could have left me scarred and hating other races but thankfully that is not the case, therefore it makes me really angry to be labeled as

one ... so thank you for the support :thumbsup:

 

@ Tweedle ... this my dear friend is the way of the Debates forum ... You aim at a target but discover that many arrows from many different perspectives also

fill the air and the target you have set changes according to the whim of the shooters.

 

Communism, hahaha I doubt you have an idea of what communism is really all about ... it's a lot more than "... equal healthcare, equal education and equal rights".

It's more about a loss of freedom and jackboot submission ... and what you so 'freely' post here would not be possible in such an "ism".

 

The picture painted by Communism is like a romance taking place out in the wide open fields ... you whirl, you twirl, you giggle and play ... hmmmm , ahhhh can you smell the sweet aromas of all the various flowers of equality that gently assault the senses ... you fall and roll through the various delightful promises and decide to lay your head on a lovely smooth rock only to discover that it's a skull and so you dig and horrified you realise you're in a paradise built on dead men's bones ... communism.

 

Back on topic ... It's pretty easy to judge people who are on the dole, welfare whatever you call it, wherever you are ... and though you might find a family partaking in it, and a member or two indulges in various vices not conducive to appropriate behavior with the funds received ... if there are children around they will end up being hurt the most ... however, having said that, there must be a way to tackle the issue of lifestylers ... I don't have an answer on how to do that and there is no way you could do that without hurting some people along the way, but does that mean that you now stagnate the whole process of weeding out the "users" ? ..... NO.

Edited March 8, 2012 by Nintii

[HeyYou]

One of the main issues, as I see it, is the caseload that the workers that administer the system (those that directly deal with the clients) is outrageous. At last check, that number was pushing 800 cases per worker. It would be physically impossible for the worker to verify that each and every client actually had a legitimate need for support.

[Moveing]

Now, I dont know how bad drugs are in your guys nations, but over here in New Zealand there are a lot of people on welfare who use the money to buy Weed/Pot or w/e you call it.

 

The welfare system is just bread and circus, holding the population down. You can't reduce pooverty by making it rewarding. Here is your bread, and here is your TV. Now vote for the socialists next election.

 

By the way, why should the government be allowed to take money from me, which must work, to give it to other people? If some of my friends would have a bad time, making ants meat, than i would help him. And he would try to be a lesser burden.,

 

But some people which just get their welfare checks every month, i don't see any progress on these people exept they are tuning into a class of depentend rabble.

 

 

dunmermaiden

You can bury your head in the sand to the facts however the truth of the situation remains is that China's cheap labour is taking away jobs in our country.

This is missleading. Business isn't leaving the western world because the Red Chinese give them better conditions, its because they can't make anymore business in the western world because here they are given bad conditions. To high taxes, to many regulations. The big Companies are the first ones which run away because they can afford it, the small ones just would get bankrupt and than we end up like a secound world country where everything in the big supermarkets was produced in china.

 

I would love to open a business and hire some people here in the west, but it isn't allowed to just start enterprise without regulations, laws, taxes this and that.

Edited March 11, 2012 by Moveing