Confused about BOSS and NMM

[mastervampire]

Im new to modding and mainly I have just been using NMM to download, install and organise my load order list.

But should I also be using BOSS to help with the load order?

Or does NMM already do this and I dont need BOSS?

 

I hope someone can clear this up.

 

Thanks

[MShoap13]

The devs are currently working on masterlist (semi-automatic sorting) functionality for NMM, but it's not there yet. If you feel like you're having load order issues then it won't hurt to go ahead and give it a try. I believe the ultimate goal for NMM is for it to basically canibalize the functions of BOSS and Wrye Bash so there's really only the need for one utility, but this is going to take quite a bit of time...

[SierraHotel]

I don't understand the need for BOSS myself (I should point out I'm a complete amateur when it comes to these things).

 

The Mod Manager comes with a customisable Load Order - what then is the point of BOSS?

 

Is the NMM Load Order bugged in some way?

 

(Not that I've had much need at all to order any of my mods).

[Dark0ne]

Currently you are expected to manage your load order yourself. If you don't touch the load order then you'll probably run in to issues when you start adding more than about 20 or so mods (depending on what the mods are).

 

BOSS has the ability to sort your load order for you using the best known load orders for your setup. You can use BOSS's load order as a base to customise from, or just trust that BOSS has given you the best load order for your setup.

[SierraHotel]

I don't understand the need for BOSS myself (I should point out I'm a complete amateur when it comes to these things).

 

The Mod Manager comes with a customisable Load Order - what then is the point of BOSS?

 

Is the NMM Load Order bugged in some way?

 

(Not that I've had much need at all to order any of my mods).

 

I see, OK thanks.

[yota71]

but finally boss really sort your mod or you have to sort it manually in the data menu of skyrim?

[Sibastion]

Im new to modding and mainly I have just been using NMM to download, install and organise my load order list.

But should I also be using BOSS to help with the load order?

Or does NMM already do this and I dont need BOSS?

 

I hope someone can clear this up.

 

Thanks

I use both , sorry just wanted to add my two cents.

[BlackCompany]

Been modding for years. Tried BOSS years ago and the end result was a disaster of epic proportion. Took me weeks of digging through mods and discovering what they do to fix the situation of near-constant CTD in Oblivion. Here is what I found out regarding BOSS and load order, with much advice from a master, veteran modder who was kind enough to help me along:

 

 

-If you only have one mod for each change in your game, load order does not matter. If only one mod changes each world cell, leveled lists or magic spell, you need never worry about load order.

 

-If nothing ever changes land height, load order is irrelevant for mods which add stuff to outdoor cells. And changing land height is a compatibility nightmare.

 

-Overhauls are just that: don't expect multiple overhauls to get along. Ever.

 

-The idea that adjusting load order fixes everything is just that - an idea. One which often is also untrue. Load order adjustment does not make incompatible mods work together.

 

-There are exceptions to every rule. Two of my mods change the Lockpick perk tree. One changes it to a Shout perk tree. The other changes it to a Lycanthropy perk treee. The load order I use depends on the character I play, since one is a Werewolf and he wants the Lycan tree, while the other does not.

 

-Knowing what your mods change and how they affect each other is better than having an application tell you where to put them.

 

 

I have found this to be sage advice. Does it mean I use fewer mods than most people per play through? Sure it does. Does it also mean I have zero - and I mean it here, folks, zero, as in the number (0) - crashes to desktop in 120 hours? Yes, it does. My game is stable because I have taken the time to know exactly what each mod in my load order does, what it changes or introduces, and where I can place it in my load order for a stable game.

 

My general advice on this is:

 

-Mods adding new content ONLY, and NO outdoor locations? Very high in load order

 

-Mods which add new items to existing cells, but change no lists? Very high in load order

 

-Quest mods adding only new cells linked to existing indoor cells? High in load order

 

-Quest mods adding new outdoor locations/building? Low in load order

 

-Mods which change vast amounts of land height? Avoid them if possible; if not, load them late, and load NOTHING ELSE which changes the same cell outdoors

 

-Overhauls which change leveled lists, spells, base effects, and inventories? Load them toward the bottom, just above land height mods

 

-Mod changes game settings, combat styles, base effects, or global variables? Load as close to bottom as you can

 

-Darker Dungeons: Bottom of load order. Period.

 

 

On Merged Patches: Two incompatible mods cannot work together. IF two mods add stuff to the same leveled list, you can merge this. It will even work as intended - sometimes. If two mods both change land height in the same cell, or both add a new door or chest in the same spot of the same cell, merging will accomplish nothing. Ditto for load order changes.

 

In general, know what your mods do, what they change, why they change it and how mods in your load order will play together. Ultimately, it is the player who is responsible for the number and magnitude of changes in their game. Blaming modders because you download too many mods and make too many changes too quickly really isn't fair, and I resolved long ago not to be "that guy."

[creeposaurus]

Useful info BlackCompany. Changed my view on how to manage my load orders. Do you customize your mods enabled manually or do you have a utility for that?

[BlackCompany]

The only "tool" I use for managing load order, now, is the one built into the game itself. Unlike most others, I don't miss third party mod managers. In case you are interested, read the intercession below:

 

-Why use NMM/3rd party tools?

 

1. Conflict Detection.

 

Don't need it.

 

If you know what each of your mods does, and what it changes, and how this affects your game world you don't need conflict detection. Let me explain. I have two mods which both change the rate of magicka restore in combat. One changes it be higher, to match the regular magicka regen, for realism. The other makes it MUCH lower, for additional challenge. My girlfriend plays with the higher regen rate, so she loads that mod below the other. I use the slower rate, for additional challenge, and I load that mod last.

 

Now, NMM will tell you this is a mod conflict. And it is. An intentional one. So long as you know which mod you prefer, and know which one to load last, its a conflict you need not concern yourself with. But NMM won't tell you that. OBMM would not either. Instead, you would fret and worry over this "conflict" and end up removing one of the mods. Or worse "cleaning" the mod. Whatever that means (and try asking the tool makers - go for it.)

 

2. Mod Cleaning

 

Don't want it.

 

What does it do? How does it work? How does it affect a mod's performance or stability? Even the tool makers can't explain it in words I can understand. But they insist I do it. Which I won't. Ever. Nor will I ever support so-called "cleaned" versions of my mod. If you took out something I put in, and your game breaks...fix it yourself. If you have a bug, ask me, not someone else. Just be able to reproduce it first, under the same circumstance as the first time.

 

3. Mod merging

 

Don't use it. Slamming two mods together into one seems a fine idea. If both mods are extremely light on content - say, small settings tweaks - it probably even works. But I can't see how, or why, and so I prefer to avoid it.

 

3. New auto-install of mods.

 

Not interested. I like knowing what my mods install, and I enjoy putting them into the folders myself. Gives me a chance to study folder structures, make sure they are correct. Make sure everything is going to the right place.

 

 

So yeah, Bethesda's new, built in load order management works for me. Don't want, or need, the third party tools.

 

 

My advice to those new to using mods or who concern themselves with load order:

 

Get to know your mod list. Intimately. Ask yourself some key questions:

 

-Do I have two mods changing the same spell or effect? how about the same NPC or leveled list?

-Do I have more than one mod changing the same exterior or interior world cell? If so, is this a problem?

-Did I adhere to the "one mod per change" conflict free formula? If so, do I need concern myself with load order?

 

 

General rules of thumb:

 

-If two mods modify an interior: both just add new loot. Should be fine together. Mod managers call this a "conflict" but its not. Odds they both place new loot in EXACTLY the same spot are astronomical against.

 

-Two mods change an interior: One changes lighting. One adds new items. Load the Lighting Mod later in your load order. In fact, any mod that changes lighting in a cell should be loaded late as possible.

 

-A mod changes land height in a world cell. No other mod should be allowed to change that same exterior world cell in any way. If it does, scrap one of them. Now.

 

-Two mods change the same leveled list: Two choices. Settle for the fact that only one change will be seen in game. Or merge them. If you are INTIMATELY familiar with merging/bashing, either read up on it - I did, for days - or pass up on it (recommended.)

 

-Two mods change the same NPC/spell/item: same as leveled lists. Except merging/bashing likely WILL NOT work. Exception: one mod adds to inventory, another changs stats. You CAN get both from a merged/bashed patch, IF you REALLY know what you are doing with one. Otherwise...choose one mod, or the other.

 

 

Know your mod lists. Know what they do. If in doubt, ask the mod maker to advise you on specific changes. Its your game, you need to know whether two mods conflict. And even though the mod maker might not be aware of one, you might know better based on your own load order. If you do know of conflicts, advise the mod maker - politely, please. Conflicts are not necessarily the mod maker's fault. Its just,well, the game can only hold so many mods.

 

If you follow these general rules of thumb, you can have a crash free game with zero mod conflicts. You won't get to play as many mods, but you will get to play more often and for longer periods than you spend in forums asking about CTD and missing textures.