Can free-will exist in a causal world?

[Tchos]

Well, I apologise for misunderstanding.

 

Now I've had a few moments to absorb your latest post, and at the heart of it seems to be the question of "how can we change our minds or our behaviour without free will?" (I spoke briefly on this some posts ago, about changing my mind, but I didn't specifically address this aspect of it.)

 

I would contend that we do not actually change our own minds. I cannot, for instance, willfully choose to believe something contrary to what I actually believe. For instance, I cannot choose to believe that I have the power of telekinesis. I can pretend it's true, certainly, but that's not the same thing as actually believing something. Let's take something more mundane. Let's say someone has told me that I've won a huge sum of money, and I do not believe him, even though I would certainly like to believe it. I can't simply choose to believe it. I have to be convinced by external evidence. A briefcase filled with cash would convince me, for certain. At that point, I would believe it, and I could not choose to disbelieve it.

 

My mind has been changed, but not though my own will. In fact, I was powerless to prevent it. I could try (lying to myself/fooling myself), but I would always know what I really believe. Only through external input, or new internal processing of existing input, can my mind be changed. Will has nothing to do with it.

[Sativarg]

Well, I apologise for misunderstanding.

I must admit now that I have read my post again, your perception was valid. I should have been more specific.

 

Now I've had a few moments to absorb your latest post, and at the heart of it seems to be the question of "how can we change our minds or our behavior without free will?" (I spoke briefly on this some posts ago, about changing my mind, but I didn't specifically address this aspect of it.)

 

I would contend that we do not actually change our own minds.

Well I hope that people do have free will. I have had things happen in my life that seem so familiar and at time it is as if I am just reliving an event that is out of my control. Yet in some of these situations it has seemed that, because I did or did not do one or a few things that I "remembered" as critical to the event, I was able to change the outcome from what I "remembered"

 

That was not well written but I am not good at temporal matters. If this is not clear and yet seems pertinent or of some value I will try to clarify it after I have some coffee.

[nosisab]

People have free will, indeed, and use it to do the most short sighted thing they can. Enough this seems to return some quick profit, the later... well, later. Sadly this vision can turns later into too late.

[QQuix]

Kind of late here, but I didn’t see the Chaos Theory mentioned.

 

It kind of blends both concepts when claiming there is randomness (free-will?) in the small scale and causality on the big picture.

 

Something like: Each one of us decide when it is time to go to lunch. No Matter what, the streets will be full during lunch hours.

 

Isaac Asimov used something like that as the base for his “Foundation” series.

[Tchos]

Well, I hardly think the word "will" can apply to quantum particles, but it's true that we are unable to determine exactly what they will do at any given moment. But we can predict the probability of them doing a particular thing with a good degree of accuracy.

[QQuix]

I think that is key word: PROBABILITY !

 

I am not a scholar and don’t have the knowledge or the talent to elaborate on the matter, but I think the equation (??!) should be something like:

 

Free Will >>> Probability >>> Causality

 

Or, in other world, Causality might be probabilistic. With a different bell shape for physical and for social phenomena (and whatever in between)

[Marcus Wolfe]

You know, I just look at this and wonder:

Does it even matter?

[QQuix]

Probably .......... (fill with the word of your choice Yes/No/Maybe)

[nosisab]

Since the discussion turned out philosophical as opposed it's initial theosophical tone...

 

Seeking to restrain at the topic question: Yes, there is nothing that turns free will and causality incompatible. Although the limits aren't so easily established, there aren't definite boundaries. Free will lead to causes, and causes will generate decisions to be take. Sometimes one can decide something about the issues, sometimes he can even believe he decided, more often he can just follow the flow.

 

Above is an individual vision over individuals, more complex bodies, like the society and/or institutions in general follows similar rules. Now, about the environment and even the universal rules, they will attain to well defined laws, and albeit the random factor is something we can't even say for sure is this random, without the willing, and not seldom knowing, destruction mankind can and do, I can't point better example of "free will" at action.

 

Resuming: There's no better example of "free will" that decisions one takes knowing (or at least sensing) will prejudice mankind in the long course.

 

Edit: The bell curve representing the probabilities presented by Qquix is an interesting tool. Known the decision, the expected result and at least some influencing/influenced variables one can trace the probabilities with some degree of precision. Indeed there is a tool known as linear programming that uses this concept. Very alike that curve in determination of max and min problems (optimal). The main difference being the use of discrete steps instead a continuous curve.

[Sativarg]

OH well I had a reply and got the stupid error I am always getting when I try to post lately that the site timed out.

 

I am not going to re-compose the reply but I am pissed enough to post this.

 

Update this crap goes strieght through but a well thought out composition is just gone like dust.

!@#%&%$*&^)(*&{)(+__)*()(*&(*&%^$^$#!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Now every thing goes through instantaneously. I could scream. I tried to reproduce what I had written and it was Good. Now it is gone. Its not this site its the key logger the snoops are using to keep tabs on me. I had the thing gone and now its back.

 

I change my mind! As long as things like the CIA and secret societies exist there is no free will in this stinking world and no such thing as Democracy. Democracy demands free will and as long as agendas manipulate humanity there in no freedom, only the illusion of freedom.