LE Sexist Realism

[Sanbru]

Not sure you read past the initial post. Bringing up exceptional examples (as too did I) doesn't make this designer requirement any more believable. Hell, if it was designed after Countess Jeanne de Penthièvre and Joan it would be good writing but wouldn't forget that common women wouldn't be walking around with rank as captains with men careful of saying "he or she" when discussing hypotheticals. I'm a huge fan of dissident women but outside certain tribal exceptions the "heroines" were largely gilded and not obtainable to regular women OR men. This is just common sense and I would like an ancient world that didn't appeal to modern PC norms. Bring on the Celtic warrior women and make them ugly as sin! Bring on the horrible elitist French General women sending their miserable men into death! Most definitely bring on the outraged African slave woman turned pirate leader!............ but the 50/50 equal society stuff is unnecessary (I think) to roping paying women into buying the game.

 

You do have a point...I mean racism is rampant in Skyrim, yet it seems they shy away from sexism. Of course both racism and sexism should be frowned upon IRL, however this is as mentioned fantasy, and based on a land where sword, magic, and superstition rule.

[Rennn]

I don't mind racism or sexism in games as long as I can forcibly abolish it. (assassin rampage)

 

If it's added, the racist people had better not be essential! :thumbsup:

[Drakescale]

Not sure you read past the initial post. Bringing up exceptional examples (as too did I) doesn't make this designer requirement any more believable. Hell, if it was designed after Countess Jeanne de Penthièvre and Joan it would be good writing but wouldn't forget that common women wouldn't be walking around with rank as captains with men careful of saying "he or she" when discussing hypotheticals. I'm a huge fan of dissident women but outside certain tribal exceptions the "heroines" were largely gilded and not obtainable to regular women OR men. This is just common sense and I would like an ancient world that didn't appeal to modern PC norms. Bring on the Celtic warrior women and make them ugly as sin! Bring on the horrible elitist French General women sending their miserable men into death! Most definitely bring on the outraged African slave woman turned pirate leader!............ but the 50/50 equal society stuff is unnecessary (I think) to roping paying women into buying the game.

 

You do have a point...I mean racism is rampant in Skyrim, yet it seems they shy away from sexism. Of course both racism and sexism should be frowned upon IRL, however this is as mentioned fantasy, and based on a land where sword, magic, and superstition rule.

 

Skyrim is set in a world where the Thalmore ripped the Empire a new a**hole and outlawed the worship of Talos. The Red Mountain exploded and cause Skyrim to be polluted by black-deadric-worshipping mers who aren't tourists. Outsiders coming in unchecked enforcing thier will. If my mind are anything near sane I would say "racism" is unavoidable and "sexism" actually brought them together. Believably? I would rather trust my sister in Nord blood than a Highelf claiming he/she loves and will die for SKyrim. Just my 2cent. :3

[VforValence]

Ahem...

 

A strong Nord Woman could rip your groin out through your chest.

 

You know that right?

 

Do you realize that there have been ancient societies with warrior women by the way? The reduction of females to the roles of sex slaves and domestic house pets mostly spread out of Mesopotamia and Rome, though it was pretty common in some eastern cultures. The Germanic, Nordic, and Celtic peoples generally had diverse roles for women, delicate women were considered undesirable for many "barbarian" clans because weak women were more likely to die during child birth and have weak children.

 

And lest I checked, in the world of Elder Scrolls, strong women are celebrated, so why should they be weak?

[VforValence]

Skyrim is set in a world where the Thalmore ripped the Empire a new a**hole and outlawed the worship of Talos. The Red Mountain exploded and cause Skyrim to be polluted by black-deadric-worshipping mers who aren't tourists. Outsiders coming in unchecked enforcing thier will. If my mind are anything near sane I would say "racism" is unavoidable and "sexism" actually brought them together. Believably? I would rather trust my sister in Nord blood than a Highelf claiming he/she loves and will die for SKyrim. Just my 2cent. :3

 

Racism is already rife throughout the game. A lot of Nords have a problem with elves, practically no one trusts Kajhits, Redguards and Imperials are looked down on as outsiders and intruders in Skyrim, Bretons generally think they're superior to everyone else, so do the Thalmor, oh and let's not forget the Argonians, they're viewed with a mixture of objectifying sexual fetishism (at least if some of the books are an indicator) and dismissed as inferior, untrustworthy, and stereotyped as Skooma addicts and merchants. Oh and the Orcs, the Orcs in Skyrim are generally racist against Non-Orcs and follow a strict code of Daedra worship, and Orcs are generalized as blacksmiths and warriors. Ever play an Orc? I haven't because they're so damned ugly, in fact I went through purging their holds, because I'm playing a racist High Elf with an affinity for the Thalmor right now.

 

So yeah I'd say racism is in the game.

 

There's less sexism because in the world of the Elder Scrolls strong women are generally celebrated and more is expected of women. Weak women are looked down upon in the land of Skyrim, so are weak men, and weakness in general.

Edited April 1, 2012 by VforValence

[cooltrickle]

...Vikings... were one of the most sexually equal of the ancient societies, and women were almost all trained to use weapons, though more for defense than offense.

I've read that only free men were allowed to carry weapons in Viking culture. That's FREE men not all men. For that reason, it would seem unlikely that women (like a lot of men) even possessed weapons never mind were trained in their use. Also Viking burial graves of women (outside of Skyrim) don't contain weapons unlike those of men.

 

@OP

 

Ideally, a guard should be an imposing individual otherwise he or she would be useless as a protector. Men are far more likely to be imposing than women so it makes sense to employ a man as a guard and not a woman. It is not sexism, it's just facing up to reality and making a sensible decision. Personally, I don't mind that some guards are female but I agree that the female officer who orders your beheading is ridiculous. When women play tough roles, either voice-acting or in films, they always overdo it. They think tough means being humorless and shouting disrespectfully at everyone. Whereas a man in the same role just emanates toughness without being a dick. I have to say some of the male voices in the game are ridiculously gruff, like Ulfric's bodyguard. So yes, you have a point, but meh... :biggrin:

[Lokiron]

Interesting topic. Most arguments in the thread relate to the history women through the ages/cultures, which is all well and good. But..

 

I think, in my own modest opinion, that the morality of this topic is best answered by looking at our own time. Sexual inequality still exists, to some extent, in most of the modern world even to this day. How is this countered? By everybody getting used to seeing women (men too, for that matter) in roles not usually associated with their sex. It's a mindset, and influences like our favorite entertainments can move this. Historical accuracy or fantasy realism really shouldn't take precedense over this. Now, you are talking about a mod, so of course it's less important. But I'm glad the Vanilla game has female guards.

 

Lastly, I present a sexist, yet humorous, picture that's oddly relevant for the thread.

 

http://sadhillnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/you-see-that-its-a-kitchen-now-get-back-in-it-sad-hill-news.jpg

[Ozinator]

Ahem...

 

A strong Nord Woman could rip your groin out through your chest.

 

You know that right?

 

Do you realize that there have been ancient societies with warrior women by the way? The reduction of females to the roles of sex slaves and domestic house pets mostly spread out of Mesopotamia and Rome, though it was pretty common in some eastern cultures. The Germanic, Nordic, and Celtic peoples generally had diverse roles for women, delicate women were considered undesirable for many "barbarian" clans because weak women were more likely to die during child birth and have weak children.

 

And lest I checked, in the world of Elder Scrolls, strong women are celebrated, so why should they be weak?

read the thread past the first post

 

 

(and no, a Nord woman could not do that to me :laugh:)

Edited April 1, 2012 by Ozinator

[Ozinator]

Interesting topic. Most arguments in the thread relate to the history women through the ages/cultures, which is all well and good. But..

 

I think, in my own modest opinion, that the morality of this topic is best answered by looking at our own time. Sexual inequality still exists, to some extent, in most of the modern world even to this day. How is this countered? By everybody getting used to seeing women (men too, for that matter) in roles not usually associated with their sex. It's a mindset, and influences like our favorite entertainments can move this. Historical accuracy or fantasy realism really shouldn't take precedense over this. Now, you are talking about a mod, so of course it's less important. But I'm glad the Vanilla game has female guards.

 

Lastly, I present a sexist, yet humorous, picture that's oddly relevant for the thread.

 

http://sadhillnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/you-see-that-its-a-kitchen-now-get-back-in-it-sad-hill-news.jpg

 

I do not endorse the above joke! :laugh:

 

I don't want a moral world to roleplay in and it's a silly place to counter sexism. Would you purchase a fantasy book as PC as these games are to do your part in countering social norms? The only reason the game works is because there is no alternative for the kind of fun to be had with a computer. As the man (or woman! :laugh:) above said though, some of it isn't even about sexism, it's common sense; I am a very large man and have worked doors as a bouncer...there are some smaller guys I spar with who could beat me in an equal fight but you would still take the bigger man to bounce the door (another nod to the man/woman/ above named, "Cooltrickle" ) . And if as a world society we stopped being sexist, would you want women bouncing the door? There's plenty women out there who can fight but skill being equal they can't overcome size and strength.

 

But yeah, MY imaginary mod! :laugh: Can you make it for me?

[Sanbru]

Interesting topic. Most arguments in the thread relate to the history women through the ages/cultures, which is all well and good. But..

 

I think, in my own modest opinion, that the morality of this topic is best answered by looking at our own time. Sexual inequality still exists, to some extent, in most of the modern world even to this day. How is this countered? By everybody getting used to seeing women (men too, for that matter) in roles not usually associated with their sex. It's a mindset, and influences like our favorite entertainments can move this. Historical accuracy or fantasy realism really shouldn't take precedense over this. Now, you are talking about a mod, so of course it's less important. But I'm glad the Vanilla game has female guards.

 

Lastly, I present a sexist, yet humorous, picture that's oddly relevant for the thread.

 

http://sadhillnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/you-see-that-its-a-kitchen-now-get-back-in-it-sad-hill-news.jpg

 

I do not endorse the above joke! :laugh:

 

I don't want a moral world to roleplay in and it's a silly place to counter sexism. Would you purchase a fantasy book as PC as these games are to do your part in countering social norms? The only reason the game works is because there is no alternative for the kind of fun to be had with a computer. As the man (or woman! :laugh:) above said though, some of it isn't even about sexism, it's common sense; I am a very large man and have worked doors as a bouncer...there are some smaller guys I spar with who could beat me in an equal fight but you would still take the bigger man to bounce the door (another nod to the man/woman/ above named, "Cooltrickle" ) . And if as a world society we stopped being sexist, would you want women bouncing the door? There's plenty women out there who can fight but skill being equal they can't overcome size and strength.

 

But yeah, MY imaginary mod! :laugh: Can you make it for me?

 

I remember there being sexism in Fallout. Well, mostly New Vegas with Ceasar's Legion. Some of the quest were blocked off, like fighting in the pitt. When you ask to fight the other men in the Legion in the arena. The Legion guard was like " Know your place woman."

So sexism isn't to far fetched for a Bethesda title game.