LE Sexist Realism

[Lokiron]

I don't want a moral world to roleplay in and it's a silly place to counter sexism.

It's not a silly place, though, but of course not the most important, nor would I consider equality education mandatory for a game. However, games teach a lot of young people many things.

Games have probably taught me most of my english vocabulary (not my first language).

 

I don't oppose your mod outright, I was just being the devil's advocate.

 

I remember there being sexism in Fallout. Well, mostly New Vegas with Ceasar's Legion. Some of the quest were blocked off, like fighting in the pitt. When you ask to fight the other men in the Legion in the arena. The Legion guard was like " Know your place woman."

So sexism isn't to far fetched for a Bethesda title game.

 

New Vegas is so much more adult than Skyrim, but aren't they the same rating? The mentioned kind of sexism is hopefully constructive as it will expose the males playing females to an annoying sexism that they might learn from.

 

That is generally what I mean. If sexism is in the game it should be transparent, and appear as something negative for the sake of the kids playing the game.

I'm not kidding here, it is a lot harder for a young person to figure out that discrimination is bad than it is to figure out that you shouldn't kill. I think killing in games is less harmful, because it is so obviously wrong (in our society).

Edited April 1, 2012 by Lokiron

[nivea]

I feel Skyrim is not likely to be over run by sexism, Nord women are just as fierce and able as the males I have never seen anything that says other wise in any of the TES games. Now if you perhaps headed to different places at different times in TES, it is far more believable then in the Nord home land.

I would have no trouble seeing Morrowind having sexism, Dunmer women are not the same as Nord women.

 

I feel the Fallout series are much more mature/real then Oblivion or Skyrim , they are much more "real" because they are set in "our world". They have/had the same laws and the same values, but in TES it is not earth and never will be earth. It is hard to claim "realism" in a world that has never had the same issues or societies as ours.

 

Perhaps there never has been a huge gender sexism issue, perhaps Nords never really thought of putting the women who can wield a two handed battle axe in the kitchen because she is a women?

 

Personally I would never play a game where the female PC is looked upon as something less then a male PC, I get that enough in RL. How is it more fun for a women playing a women to be told by random NPC "hey *censored* get back in the kitchen and pop out some f***ing babies." while the guys are told how great a warrior and wonderful they are?

Lots of men complained about FNV Caesar not accepting female PC like they did males, and I say men because most women get it... most women know better then to expect someone going by those values to openly accept a women into their fold for anything other then slavery. Annoying isnt it not to be able to play the same as a male PC.

 

All that becomes mute however when people make sex mods, they want their women slutty and at the mercy of all the men in the world... its weird.

 

But hey if someone can make the mod and make it well I am sure people will download it, and someone should make it if that is what they want. That is the beauty of modding, what I or anyone else thinks about it doesnt matter its all up to the mod maker. :)

[Ozinator]

I feel Skyrim is not likely to be over run by sexism, Nord women are just as fierce and able as the males I have never seen anything that says other wise in any of the TES games. Now if you perhaps headed to different places at different times in TES, it is far more believable then in the Nord home land.

I would have no trouble seeing Morrowind having sexism, Dunmer women are not the same as Nord women.

 

I feel the Fallout series are much more mature/real then Oblivion or Skyrim , they are much more "real" because they are set in "our world". They have/had the same laws and the same values, but in TES it is not earth and never will be earth. It is hard to claim "realism" in a world that has never had the same issues or societies as ours.

 

Perhaps there never has been a huge gender sexism issue, perhaps Nords never really thought of putting the women who can wield a two handed battle axe in the kitchen because she is a women?

 

Personally I would never play a game where the female PC is looked upon as something less then a male PC, I get that enough in RL. How is it more fun for a women playing a women to be told by random NPC "hey *censored* get back in the kitchen and pop out some f***ing babies." while the guys are told how great a warrior and wonderful they are?

Lots of men complained about FNV Caesar not accepting female PC like they did males, and I say men because most women get it... most women know better then to expect someone going by those values to openly accept a women into their fold for anything other then slavery. Annoying isnt it not to be able to play the same as a male PC.

 

All that becomes mute however when people make sex mods, they want their women slutty and at the mercy of all the men in the world... its weird.

 

But hey if someone can make the mod and make it well I am sure people will download it, and someone should make it if that is what they want. That is the beauty of modding, what I or anyone else thinks about it doesnt matter its all up to the mod maker. :)

 

Appealing to everyone in a game works because there is nowhere else to get the thrill of the game, but it makes a lousy book that no one would read. TES IS modeled after the real world with kings, grain mills, farms, armor, ect. but real world or not, it's a crap story to sell how all that is even possible with such political correctness and gender sharing. A bit of a straw man to imply I want all the women slutted up; In fact, outside the brothel, I'd like it better if they were uglier! This girl power nonsense of skinny hot chicks challenging men to bar fights is silly stuff. BUT, as I've already stated, player characters being the rare exception or the "Red Sonja" is awesome. Also women nobility would work (historically some very horrible and ruthless people); tribal or serf women forced or compelled to take arms in battle; The rare bandit/pirate leader or adventurer. But even with all that existing (as it did in our world), even with the occasional woman saying, "anything you can do, I can do better", the world being an equal opportunity starting point free of even the thought of sexism is absurd. What similar game was it that you could go into a brothel and ask for a man or a woman? It's a cop-out to say these kinds of things are real for the world that was designed. It's a stuck risk assessment thinking it will get more business than it will lose and no one challenges it.

 

OK so not many people bother reading books, is there a movie this absurd out there?

 

Anyways... if you are a mod, I mean no offense and get in that kitchen and cook me a mod!

[MotoSxorpio]

...Vikings... were one of the most sexually equal of the ancient societies, and women were almost all trained to use weapons, though more for defense than offense.

I've read that only free men were allowed to carry weapons in Viking culture. That's FREE men not all men. For that reason, it would seem unlikely that women (like a lot of men) even possessed weapons never mind were trained in their use. Also Viking burial graves of women (outside of Skyrim) don't contain weapons unlike those of men.

 

@OP

 

Ideally, a guard should be an imposing individual otherwise he or she would be useless as a protector. Men are far more likely to be imposing than women so it makes sense to employ a man as a guard and not a woman. It is not sexism, it's just facing up to reality and making a sensible decision. Personally, I don't mind that some guards are female but I agree that the female officer who orders your beheading is ridiculous. When women play tough roles, either voice-acting or in films, they always overdo it. They think tough means being humorless and shouting disrespectfully at everyone. Whereas a man in the same role just emanates toughness without being a dick. I have to say some of the male voices in the game are ridiculously gruff, like Ulfric's bodyguard. So yes, you have a point, but meh... :biggrin:

I have to agree with you here.

 

 

We are global. No longer are there unseen borders, keeping one tradition of thought from mixing with another. I think that there are only minute differences in the capabilities of either sex. Mostly, we are tethered to this idea that a woman can never be as strong as a man. I argue that under the same circumstances, training, upbringing a woman can be all that a man can be and sometimes more.

 

Whether its clinical, philosophical or just an opinion...we are 2 sides of one coin.

 

 

[Ozinator]

Mostly, we are tethered to this idea that a woman can never be as strong as a man. I argue that under the same circumstances, training, upbringing a woman can be all that a man can be and sometimes more.

 

 

I really hope someone still wants to make this mod and I doubt arguing with people will help me....but this one is hard to let go

 

Strength-wise--under the right circumstances, training and upbringing, a woman can NOT be all that a man can be under those same circumstances. This isn't sexist, it's biology. Even taking steroids and GH, the strongest woman raised from birth to compete (understand this has happened in China and the USSR-if not wide-spread) cannot match the strength of the strongest natural male. It's not even close!

 

Yes there are women out there who are stronger than men out there and average men who don't train are closer to average women who don't train but you line up all the people who eat and train average in the world and the men are stronger. This isn't a social or political argument. Testosterone isn't lacking in women because their parents raised them as girls

 

T

[lasbotellas]

Mostly, we are tethered to this idea that a woman can never be as strong as a man. I argue that under the same circumstances, training, upbringing a woman can be all that a man can be and sometimes more.

 

 

I really hope someone still wants to make this mod and I doubt arguing with people will help me....but this one is hard to let go

 

Strength-wise--under the right circumstances, training and upbringing, a woman can NOT be all that a man can be under those same circumstances. This isn't sexist, it's biology. Even taking steroids and GH, the strongest woman raised from birth to compete (understand this has happened in China and the USSR-if not wide-spread) cannot match the strength of the strongest natural male. It's not even close!

 

Yes there are women out there who are stronger than men out there and average men who don't train are closer to average women who don't train but you line up all the people who eat and train average in the world and the men are stronger. This isn't a social or political argument. Testosterone isn't lacking in women because their parents raised them as girls

 

T

 

The thing is, in reality the strongest man and strongest woman are irrelevant, as are the average man and woman. When there is a job to be done (childrearing, soldiering, travelling merchant, bandit, poet, whatever) there are plenty of openings, and the people who are the best equipped to do the job will tend to be favored.

 

So in terms of a TES game, here's what I think realistic job assignment would look like (keeping in mind that it's a fantasy world where there are very few children, magic/gods exist, and "race" does not mean the same thing that it does IRL).

 

There are five main groups a character could be born into:

nobles (the wealthy, people born into/close to the royal line, etc)

the merchant (upper middle) class

city/town-dwelling commoners

the underclass (bad guys, the poor, thieves guild/dark brotherhood types, etc)

outsiders (foreigners and anyone else ostracized by the first three groups)

 

These are the main jobs-that-need-doing in Skyrim that exist as primary professions and the skills I think are most required:

 

 

soldier/guard (various ranks, I'll use low, mid, and high)

- heavy/light armor, block, one handed, archery

- size and physical strength more advantageous at mid/low rank

- speech more advantageous at high rank

people-in-charge (jarl's, jarl advisers, other government-type folks who aren't soldiers)

- speech

adventurer (the PC, for example)

- can be any combination because adventurers just go do what they want

bad guys (bandits, pirates, thieves guild, assassins, mercenaries, etc)

- armor, block/one handed or two handed or archery or magic, lockpicking, pickpocket, sneak

- size/strength advantageous for physical combat types (mostly bandits, some pirates)

- size disadvantageous for sneaking types (thieves, assassins)

- size/strength irrelevant for mage types, archery types, possibly some others

merchant (innkeeper, barkeep, blacksmith, alchemist, mage (like castle mages, and the ones who sell spells and whatnot), etc)

- speech + other relevant skill if there is one

religious clergy

- magic, maybe alchemy, maybe speech

scholar (mage-college, inventor, researcher, writer, bard, etc)

- maybe speech, relevant skill (alchemy, magic, etc) if there is one

farmer

- strength advantageous

miner

- strength advantageous

low-level general worker (mostly people sweeping in inns/castles or standing around doing nothing)

- if hauling stuff (like in a meaderie, perhaps), strength may be advantageous

beggar

- none

 

 

There are also professions that aren't really "from" Skyrim:

Empire/Thalmor government people (various ranks and duties, we'll go with low, mid, and high again)

the Empire's soldiers (low, mid, high ranks)

 

So, first off, we can split up jobs by class:

 

 

nobles:

- high rank soldiers/guards

- people-in-charge

- adventurer

- religious clergy

- scholar

merchant class:

- mid rank soldier/guard

- adventurer

- religious clergy

- scholar

- general worker

commoners:

- adventurer

- bad guys

- religious clergy

- farmer

- miner

- general worker

underclass:

- bad guys

- farmer

- miner

- beggar

outsiders (who are a mixed bag of the previous four classes):

- bad guys

- merchants/religious clergy/scholar (travelling outside cities, mainly)

- farmer/miner/general in rural areas

- adventurer

- Empire/Thalmor-related

 

 

Races in Tamriel are obviously different species rather than races as we know them. From what we know of different species with similar levels of complexity to their social structures, different species in Tamriel probably have different levels of sexist attitudes. So let's assume sexist attitudes should be based in biological differences. Let's also assume that racial bonuses indicate what skills make a person of a particular race be viewed as stronger/more powerful/more deserving of respect/etc by other members of that race. But first, let's figure out what the differences between the sexes are in the different races. I'm using Skyrim's information for skills, and Oblivion's information for strength and height/weight because Skyrim only has height and I wanted the information to be consistent.

 

(Note: Just in case you don't understand these numbers, they're ratios. 1 is the standard, so if one person has a height of 1 and the other has a height of 0.75, that means however tall the first person is, the second person's height is 3/4 of that. We aren't give real-world numbers to attach to the 1 values, as far as I know.)

More relevant to Skyrim:

 

 

Imperial: Combat and magic skills. Size/strength valued but doesn't vary between sexes.

- F height/weight/strength: 1 / 1 / 1

- M height/weight/strength: 1 / 1 / 1

 

Nord: Favor combat skills. Size/strength valued, but varies little between the sexes.

- F height/weight/strength: 1.06 / 1.06 / 1.25

- M height/weight/strength: 1.06 / 1.1 / 1.25

 

Elves: I'll rate all three of these together as little or no sexism. They all favor thief and mage skills, and don't vary much in size (except male Bosmers are small than female Bosmers).

Altmer:

- F height/weight/strength: 1.1 / 1 / 0.75

- M height/weight/strength: 1.1 / 1 / 0.75

Bosmer:

- F height/weight/strength: 1 / 0.9 / 0.75

- M height/weight/strength: 0.9 / 0.95 / 0.75

Dunmer:

- F height/weight/strength: 1 / 0.9 / 1

- M height/weight/strength: 1 / 0.95 / 1

 

 

Less relevant to Skyrim:

 

 

Khajiit: Mainly thief skills, with one-handed and archery. Size/strength low priorities. However, we don't see many female khajiit in Tamriel outside of Elsweyr, so perhaps women travelling isn't the done thing, though they are led by religious leaders called Clan Mothers. There aren't many important khajiit in Skyrim anyway, so whether they're sexist or not doesn't affect the game much.

- F height/weight/strength: 0.95 / 0.95 / 0.75

- M height/weight/strength: 1 / 1 / 1

 

Argonian: All thief and magic skills. Size/strength not prioritized. They lay eggs, so the issues surrounding childbirth don't apply. Possibly able to change sex. I'll rate them as little or no sexism, though what I said with khajiits applies here.

- F height/weight/strength: 1 / 1 / 1

- M height/weight/strength: 1.03 / 1.05 / 1

 

Orcs: Mainly combat and weaponsmithing skills. Size/strength high priority, but variance between sexes is low. Extremely sexist patriarchal society, however, "women are expected to contribute to the strength of the stronghold just as men, as warriors, hunters, herbalists" and "traditionally, the orcish art of smithing is done by the women."

- F height/weight/strength: 1.06 / 1.06 / 1.12

- M height/weight/strength: 1.06 / 1.1 / 1.12

 

Breton: Mage and thief skills. Size/strength not prioritized.

- F height/weight/strength: 0.95 / 0.9 / 0.75

- M height/weight/strength: 1 / 1 / 1

 

Redguard: Favor combat skills. Size/strength prioritised and male/female differences are notable. Everyone is expected to learn combat skills, but only the best can joint he military (so the military ought to have a large male majority).

- F height/weight/strength: 1 / 1 / 1

- M height/weight/strength: 1.03 / 1.03 / 1.25

 

 

 

So, based on values from TES lore and a little dose of reality, here's what we might expect from Nords in Skyrim:

Due to the realities of childbirth and whatnot, many women will opt out of a profession which involves travel.

Additionally, assuming there is a baseline physical standard for becoming a guard/soldier, there will be a slightly larger number of qualifying men than women.

In other labor intensive professions like mining and farming, the difference in numbers will be almost nill because the physical qualifications are low enough that women should qualify at the same rate as men.

More simply, in terms of male to female ratios, here's how common professions rank (most men per woman first):

- soldier/guard (low/mid rank, then high rank)

- bad guy (combat intensive)

- travelling merchant

- bad guy (not combat intensive)

- scholar (especially people who go out travelling for it)

- miner, farmer

- everything else

 

For Empire/Thalmor jobs, we can expect even smaller male to female ratios across all professions because elves and Imperials vary even less across sexes, though the first point for Nords regarding childbearing still stands.

 

For other outsider class jobs:

Argonians have equal numbers of men and women in the bad guys professions and are not usually in other professions in Skyrim.

Khajiits have more men than women in their professions (bad guys and merchant-type stuff), but the reason for this is unclear. Aren't usually in the other professions.

Orcs have equal numbers of men and women in every profession, but men are in charge.

Bretons have more men than women in all physically intensive professions.

Redguards have about the same number of men and women in all professions (their military's not in Skyrim, so).

 

 

Presumeably, though, you'd want to change the values for Imperials and Nords (and perhaps elves, but I don't see why) to make them more like humans. This would produce larger male to female ratios in physically intensive professions, but it wouldn't eliminate women from the military or bandit camps altogether. This is because while the average and strongest men would be stronger than the average and strongest women, respectively, the qualification for becoming, say, a guard is not based on the average man or average woman. The individual must presumably be stronger than the average man, but doesn't have to be the strongest man. Unless the physical standard literally does require a penis and/or that you be the strongest person alive there will always be some women who qualify. So you'd have to abandon TES lore regarding race attributes in order for preventing women being guards.

 

In my opinion, it doesn't make sense to ask for more sexism in a TES game, lore-wise. Yes, some of the species in Tamriel are called humans, but they're obviously not humans, and they're obviously not even all the same species. Assuming that attitudes about gender roles should be the same in Tamriel as in medieval Europe is silly, considering how the physical attributes of TES humans are different from real humans, as well as the existence of numerous female deities, and the existence of other intelligent species. TES hasn't necessarily gotten anything wrong with regard to sexist attitudes in the games because the circumstances in which those attitudes develop are completely different. Plus, it's a reasonable decision for the makers of the game to have made: there are quite a lot of female fans of the TES series, many of whom would be put off by the sexist crap from real life making its way into the fantasy world of an escapist game.

 

 

 

So anyway, the point of this absurdly long post is that if you want to make Skyrim have Earth sexist attitudes, focus on changing Imperial and Nord NPC attributes like height and then eliminate females from the source of randomly generated guards, soldiers, bandits, etc. I don't think it would be an overly complex mod, unless you intend to play as a female character. Then you'd have to go through and change a lot of dialog and that might be completely infeasible. Or if you want to create new followers to replace Lydia and the like. That might get.. messy.

[Thromnambular]

 

I really hope someone still wants to make this mod and I doubt arguing with people will help me....but this one is hard to let go

 

Strength-wise--under the right circumstances, training and upbringing, a woman can NOT be all that a man can be under those same circumstances. This isn't sexist, it's biology. Even taking steroids and GH, the strongest woman raised from birth to compete (understand this has happened in China and the USSR-if not wide-spread) cannot match the strength of the strongest natural male. It's not even close!

 

Yes there are women out there who are stronger than men out there and average men who don't train are closer to average women who don't train but you line up all the people who eat and train average in the world and the men are stronger. This isn't a social or political argument. Testosterone isn't lacking in women because their parents raised them as girls

 

T

 

Logically speaking, who is to say the biology of the people who inhabit Nirn isn't different than ours? Perhaps women in Nirn compensate for smaller muscle mass by having muscles that perform better. In a world of magic, demons, and dragons, our science no longer dictates how things work. Personally, I like it better when games ARE politically correct. What better escape than a world with more common sense than ours?

[eodx9000]

An interesting mod idea, but as a male that almost exclusively plays female characters I'd want to at least see more dialog where the FMC can prove herself in a manner to embarrass the male characters.

 

Strength-wise--under the right circumstances, training and upbringing, a woman can NOT be all that a man can be under those same circumstances. This isn't sexist, it's biology. Even taking steroids and GH, the strongest woman raised from birth to compete (understand this has happened in China and the USSR-if not wide-spread) cannot match the strength of the strongest natural male.

 

While I agree with your assessment (that males are biologically stronger than females) and perhaps the poster you quoted was using the wrong terminology, I'd like to counter the exact part I'm quoting by saying strength isn't always the best offense, and it definitely is not the only offense. Women have faster/quicker agility and dexterity, are more alert and graceful, and can often be wiser than their male counterparts. Then there's the fact that humans are a seemingly minority in the animal kingdom when it comes to Male/Female relations (while males are often seen as fiercer and more dangerous in the human species, it seems for the most part the female in other animal species is the fiercer and more dangerous counterpart, like for instance the preferable guard dog is female).

 

Edit: Also the above poster said it best, we don't even know what the biology is of the "human" species in the TES series is.

Edited May 8, 2012 by eodx9000

[Lisnpuppy]

ENOUGH!! This is a request for a mod (though I have to say your choice of topic name is terrible.) Requesting this without all that went with that post would have been helpful since it opened all this can of worms in the first place.

 

Regardless this is to discuss the mod request not to engage in philosophical diatribes on sexism in gaming and the internet. Take it to the debate forums as it doesn't belong here. Keep your discussion to the facts of the mod and its development and not the rhetoric. Any more of this vein and I will close this thread.~Lisnpuppy

[xxhelikaonxx]

Well, yeah, but those are the ones who a lot of males think are female. For example, many people would assume that you're a brony because of your avatar :laugh: , meanwhile a dude in his parent's basement uses a girl in skimpy clothes as an avatar and convinces all the teen guys to give out their addresses.

I'm pretty sure nivea's avatar is from Brave (a Pixar movie); not from MLP.

 

 

EDIT:

 

 

ENOUGH!! This is a request for a mod (though I have to say your choice of topic name is terrible.) Requesting this without all that went with that post would have been helpful since it opened all this can of worms in the first place.

 

Regardless this is to discuss the mod request not to engage in philosophical diatribes on sexism in gaming and the internet. Take it to the debate forums as it doesn't belong here. Keep your discussion to the facts of the mod and its development and not the rhetoric. Any more of this vein and I will close this thread.~Lisnpuppy

 

I'm sorry I wrote the above comment before reading this.

 

Locked due to a now removed necropost.

-LM