Improving Image Share

[shinytickles]

There are already catagories set up for pictures like aethetics, comba, general ... maybe we can refine that and add an adult catagory, and use that to sort out the pictures and have a top 20 in each catagory. I think the catagory list is vastly underused here.

 

To get more votes, we can have a funtion where people can add their picture into a voting pool, asking for more votes. After 5 votes or 7 days, it gets removed from the pool, and user can add it again to the top of the pool, etc. This way people who really want the votes can have a place to show off their pictures.

 

Also in my opinion top 25 formula should also inlude number of views it gets. I see some pictures with thousands of views but no votes. Clearly they were popular for a reason, no? Anyways it'd be nice not to count the times when I look at my own pictures to check comments etc. Maybe we can have an all time top 25 list, and then a recent fav 25 section where it lists top popular pictures of the past month that is based on votes and views?

 

Sometimes I wish there is a bump function, when someone other than the original uploader leaves a comment, the picture gets bumped to the top like in the threads. It'll give these pictures more exposure, and it makes it easier for users to track comments this way. Sometimes people leave me a comment months after I upload a picture, and usually I have no clue the new comments are there unless I check that picture specificly. If not bump, a notify funciton via pm will be cool too.

 

And finally a big thank you to everyone for this awesome site.

[theLeeHarvey]

There seems to be alot of us who think something is wrong with the image share section. Personally, I think several good ideas have been submitted over the course of this thread. Doing away with the top 25 is one that really speaks to me as in my opinion all the top 25 does is engender competition and set fellow site members against each other. As Lisnpuppy said, contests would be good I think because those who want to participate could and those who don't care, well, no pressure. Also, Kalia, your idea about being able to turn off commenting on our pictures in the image share section would save a lot of headaches.

 

Kalia, you have been right about me in one crucial respect. I have a completely different outlook from you. I rate the way I want to be rated as I'm sure you do but here is how we differ. If one of my posted images sucks, I want to be told so. All I ask is that you (and I mean you in the general sense here) don't do it in a Trolling manner, make your comments constructive even if they are negative. It's only going to show me what I need to improve on and chances are I'll thank somebody for a low rating just as I will for a high rating so long as they have left thorough, honest, constructive criticism.

 

I realize that ratings are going to be highly subjective by nature and that's why I try to leave a completely objective comment. I'm not going to wipe anybody's nose and treat them with kid gloves, but I'm not going to kick them in the junk either. I find leaving a constructive comment to be difficult in the extreme sometimes, because I realize there are more sensitive folks than me who belong to this site and ultimately, I don't enjoy making somebody else feel like dog-sh*t (unless they do it to me first and that can be hard to do as I tend to get angry rather than hurt). When it comes down to it though, I'm going to call an apple an apple and an orange an orange, you know what I mean? It's just how I want to be treated and it seems only fair.

 

I also agree that the current rating system isn't maybe what it's cracked up to be, but I don't think it's a failure either. As I've said before, I appreciate the ability to get feedback on pictures that aren't so good and could use improvement. If no one ever rated any pictures low, all we'd have are badly taken and effortless, thoughtless even, screenshots to look at. Nobody is the perfect Screen-Artist and we all can be better, even those of us who do a damn good job already and I can think of a few who are very good.

 

Without a rating system and comments how would you know what to work on to become even better at something you already love doing? Isn't getting better at something part of the fun of it? I just look at this from a model-builder's perspective I guess. A kudos-like system instead of the current rating system, in my opinion, is too ambiguous.

 

When it comes down to the nitty-gritty I'm afraid it's going to be all about the individuals mind set when they read the comments they've been given. I think a certain value should be placed on keeping an open mind and developing a thick skin. Nobody should be leaving malicious comments and those who do tend to get gone in short order thanks to our dedicated moderating staff. We just need to take things with a smile and a grain of salt because really in the grand scheme of things, this is just a game. They're just computer generated images and really, what effect on your life can there be? If getting a rating less than an 8 makes you want to crawl into a dark corner and cry yourself into oblivion (no pun intended), I'd suggest thinking about not posting you work for others to see. When you open yourself to other people's opinions you put yourself in the firing line. If you can't survive a hit, don't pick up the gun.

 

Here is a link to an article I wrote that explains in better detail I think, my outlook on the image share section and rating system and it's uses. I'm sure a few have read it already but, here it is in case others are curious as to the thought processes behind the ratings and comments I leave. :thanks:

http://tesnexus.com/articles/article.php?id=114

 

LeeHarvey

[kalia]

So it seems everyone's pretty much done with the top 25, lol. A random 25 seems to appeal to several folks.

 

If there is no top 25, or top listing, a kudos system does seem somewhat - superfluous. The head-to-head competition, drawn at random, done often enough for loads of screens to go through it, that seems a better way for some sort of "judging" or "ranking".

 

LeeHarvey, I don't dislike the idea of critiquing - but I think the issue comes when attaching a number to it. To you, a "6" means one thing & you'd give it to a certain type of image, to me it means something entirely different - and when I see a "6" I of course immediately react to *my* definition. I'd rather encourage *comments* & leave the number system out of it, myself. I don't need to know this particular picture is 5 slots lower than some person's "perfection" and this other picture is 4 slots lower. *shrug* What do you think of a "feedback" tag? If that were implemented, perhaps it would encourage commenting. I think there are those who are uncertain about leaving even constructive criticism, but if they saw a tag indicating the person desired it.... And then perhaps there could be some actual discussions back & forth in the comments, several varying opinions about the structure & setup of the shot, as those with different backgrounds & tastes offer up their insights.

 

This is I think entirely off-topic (as the topic is more about system changes we can make - and changing people's behaviors is probably a bit beyond Dark0ne's coding skills ;) ), but I'll just say briefly that I somewhat disagree about the "thicker skin" stuff that a lot of people say. It's true, if you're gonna put something on the internet you are opening yourself up to whatever. But I'd rather have someone who is sensitive & emotionally open & pours that into his/her art retain some of that then just close it all down in order to not get offended when their art is torn apart. (And even the most "fair" review can still feel like being torn apart.) I think there's a balance to be maintained. I also think it's impossible to judge any art purely objectively, as in my mind the whole point of art is to achieve an emotional connection, and that's such an individual response. Even the lack of lighting in one shot that just makes it hard to see for me may actually evoke some mood & memories for someone else. But those are just my opinions, just how I approach the subject.

 

 

Shinytickles - the ratings pool idea sounds good, also a bit like the random 25 though. A way to bring images back up to the front. The categories do exist - specifically adult is already a question at least - but there's no way to search by them. So categories or tags, though I think the kind of functionality we're talking about I see more often associated with tags.

[MalachiDelacot]

One other possibility that may (or not) work:

In the Thief 2 community, the modders there have contest missions and who did what are not released until after people have voted on it.

It would not be an easy programing task, but it may be interesting to not have the names of who did what picture for....um say 30 days pop up. It's enough time for people to rate, and at the 30 days, the vote/rates are locked in. It stays the same until the picture is removed.

People would vote strictly for the shot, not because we're friends or they are favourites. (we all do that) Some people have styles that are close enough to each other, it's difficult at times to tell who did what.

But shots like I do that are completely different from the norm would be disqualified since the poster would pretty much be a give away.

[Kresselack]

Well maybe the people who give 10's should give a BETTER reason why they gave it that score. It bothers me when I see a post like "10 as always for you" or "10 because it's been made by (insert author here)" The worst is when someone gives a 10 and leaves a very vague reason like "marvelous" or "great!" Tell us why it is "marvellous" or "great" and tell us your sincere opinions.

[LoginToDownload]

The worst is when someone gives a 10 and leaves a very vague reason like "marvelous" or "great!" Tell us why it is "marvellous" or "great" and tell us your sincere opinions.

That's treading into sort of unclear ground as far as "What makes a good picture". If you can't rate 10 if all you have is opinions/abstracts, then the alternative seems to be either A: Rating pictures by a clearly-defined formula, or B: Needing to include at least one piece of constructive criticism with a rating. If a formula is adopted, I sincerely doubt there's a way of separating basic and uninteresting "posing character with body-mod and custom clothing" pictures from more interesting/stylish ones that are also focused on a posing character using custom clothing and a body mod, (All three of which come hugely in handy for screenshots in general) and one bit of "constructive criticism" justifying a 10/1 (Now that ratings would need to be justified) seems like it would still come back to if the person "likes" the picture, except that the uploaders would get more help from the commenters/raters. If they can find something constructive to point out or still be bothered at all, of course.

[Sarya]

The worst is when someone gives a 10 and leaves a very vague reason like "marvelous" or "great!" Tell us why it is "marvellous" or "great" and tell us your sincere opinions.

I wonder if that could be included as a reason for reporting.

[kalia]

The thing is, the more we "require" for any rating, the fewer people are gonna rate.

 

I think it might be helpful if we accept a few things: there are those who despise the numerical rating system & will never leave less than a 10, because they only want to encourage those they like, and don't feel it's their place to do anything else. I don't think anything said here is going to change those folks' minds. There are those who will only give a 10 on a rare occasion when a picture absolutely blows them away in a way no other picture has, and mostly want to give 6's -- and I don't think anything said here is going to change the mind of those folks. The other thing is, right now, the total number of both is - well, maybe 10 people. :P Seriously, anyone here regularly get more than 4 ratings per picture? Isn't 4, like, "wow I got 4 ratings!" If we had 100 or 200 people rating images regularly, the few like me wouldn't bug the rest of you so much, and the "harsh" ratings (sorry, it's early for me & can't come up with a more neutral term - so just please take that as neutral) wouldn't stand out so much in comparison. But I simply don't see numbers like that coming in.

 

So this is the premise I'm going on: I'm not gonna suddenly start rating more "harshly" than I do. (I actually am rating honestly: the pictures I give a 10 to (which are many) I actually do feel are top-notch pictures. The ones I'd give 6s or 7s to are generally pictures whose style just doesn't interest me - like moszibby's, no offense to him. He happens to take pictures that just don't connect to me. So I wouldn't give 'em 10s, personally, but then again why should I rate 'em at all? Clearly I'm not his target audience, he's going for something different.) People who do rate "harshly" aren't gonna suddenly stop that & give all 10s. And people who aren't rating at all with the current setup aren't suddenly gonna start rating.

 

I'd like to see a lot more input on the pictures. A lot. If we're gonna have a numerical rating system with the top pictures decided by a formula based on imdb.com's, we really need imdb.com-like numbers of ratings being given. That's not happening. Things I see about that: having to come up with a comment for your rating takes some energy, and limits the number of people who rate. But being able to give a low rating with no comment *will* (the internet has shown us this :P ) lead to trolling, to folks rating low because of personal vendettas or crusades or whatever. Now, a general consensus in this thread seems to be that the top 25 needs to go; it only breeds discontent and encourages an undue focus on ratings. But if the top 25 is gone, why do we need ratings at all? Why not try to come up with something else that encourages *comments*? Seems to me those that have problems with so many 10s going out don't so much have a problem with the *10* as with the lack of feedback. Sort of "a 10 & that's it? That doesn't help me at all! How am I gonna improve?" (Obviously, one wouldn't care much if others' pictures are getting 10s, right? I mean, if one isn't caught up in being on the top 25 or being top-ranked then the only concern is the feedback one's own pictures are receiving. ;) )

 

So how about this picture: no more ratings, not even a kudos system. The pictures are there to be shared, not to compete against each other. And without even a kudos system, if you want to give the author praise you will have to leave *some* sort of comment. There's a "feedback wanted" tag, hopefully somewhat noticeable, that you can add to your image when uploading. I think a lot of people would leave more detailed comments when there's an indication the author *wants* such criticism. Note that this wouldn't preclude those who wanted to from leaving feedback on pictures without the tag, with the same reporting standards as we have today applying across the board.

 

For the competitive within us, there's a simpler, more fun, kittenwars type head-to-head battle. At upload, you pick whether to submit your image also in the pool for this, and only so many images can be in from any one artist at any one time. I personally think the battle should be daily, just because we do have a high volume of images uploaded every day. And if possible it's set up so that it's never one artist battling against him/herself. Because it goes quickly, because there's always tomorrow's battle, and because so many images will have a chance to participate, the sour grapes aspect of losing should be very limited. Winners get a little tag that can be searched by. And perhaps every so often there's some sort of run of "prior winner" battles, leading up to some extra tag for the eventual winner of that, like some sort of tournament.

 

Replacing the top 25 is a "random 25", a pull of random images from throughout the database. This is a way to bring past images back up to the "front" to get attention and, again, feedback. Perhaps its also available by "category" or "tag", however that ends up being set up.

 

And that's the other bit - having categories or tags that are searchable (and also hopefully can be used as ways to exclude images from searches, as in "character portraits" but *not* "adult"), so that one can browse images in a category that particularly appeals to one, without have to wade through a bunch of images that one's tired of. Perhaps there could also be some sort of "favorites" thing the user could apply to an uploader, so that you'd have a section populated with screens from your favorite artists?

[rollitlauncha]

Well, after so many words of wisdom spoken in all the posts above I, just a mere uploader, have something to say as well,)

The "+" and "-" system should fit if combined with an option of leaving a comment. I think there is always someone who needs some verbal support, so let's leave a chance for a viewer to say something, even subjective. To mark the positive or the negative things. But unfortunately the comments that lack objectivity will always appear, that can't be fixed.

Top 25 (or top 100), why not letting it live? For someone, maybe, this is a challenging option, a way to compete with others. I really don't care if I'm in the top or out of it - those who get interested with my pics can always see all of them by doing a few clicks. There will always be a lot of people uploading far better images than me - well, I'm always glad to support them. It ain't easy to take a really good shot.

Can't think of anything more right now, maybe I'll have something to say later. But one thing is for sure - there will be no proper working of any rating or commenting system without objectivity, good sense and mutual repect.

Sorry if I'm repeating someone's words, might not have read the previous posts carefully.

[Lisnpuppy]

Kalia--tou said:

 

So this is the premise I'm going on: I'm not gonna suddenly start rating more "harshly" than I do. (I actually am rating honestly: the pictures I give a 10 to (which are many) I actually do feel are top-notch pictures. The ones I'd give 6s or 7s to are generally pictures whose style just doesn't interest me - like moszibby's, no offense to him. He happens to take pictures that just don't connect to me. So I wouldn't give 'em 10s, personally, but then again why should I rate 'em at all? Clearly I'm not his target audience, he's going for something different.) People who do rate "harshly" aren't gonna suddenly stop that & give all 10s. And people who aren't rating at all with the current setup aren't suddenly gonna start rating.

 

________________________________________________________________________________

___________________

 

That is the thing to which I am referring in my prior post. Rating pictures is too subjective. A person may give a lower rating to a style you don't like. But that isn't an objective thing. And indeed why would you rate at all....maybe that is why the ratings system should just go and replaced with kudos or some such. It is impossible to have a rating sytem that everyone can agree based on something so subjective as artistic taste. Look how many issues we have with mod rating and that at least has a bit more objectivity to it.

 

I personally take screenshots and post the occastional one. However I think we should just completely do away with the top 25 images for the reason I have listed before. Unless it is some kind of battle of the pics then really it just seems to be more trouble than its worth. Even if we had a VS system I am sure people would still be unhappy. I don't know why we cant just post the screenies....have a place for people to say they like it or ask questions but not rate, not have a Top 25.