Managing the Load Order...

[Grestorn]

The guide (what guide by the way) is written for a world without automatic sorting.

 

Just forget about it and use the automatic sorting. It's almost certainly correct. Especially if you're using common and well used mods. Only when using peculiar mods or special patches, maybe even created by yourself, you have to take care of their ordering yourself.

 

The LOOT masterlist covers most common mod ordering issues already. There's little reason to force a specific load order. Also remember that these guids are written to be read and implemented in simple scenarios which almost never happen in real life. If it sais

 

A

B

C

 

then this doesn't mean that there must not be another mod inbetween. So if Vortex creates a load order like

 

M

A

J

O

B

P

G

C

 

It's still fine, because A is before B wich is before C.

[Darkf0rge]

I understand this.

 

However LOOT is not always correct in priority exactly how you describe, and I am having trouble making small adjustments to correct it.

Even get crazy Cyclic violation errors that seems to reference mods without rules in place at all and not even anywhere near the mods I have been trying to adjust.

 

Then with some voodoo and playing around it will finally accept it, only to complain about some other seemingly unrelated violation later.

 

It's extremely cumbersome if it's not buggy....

[Grestorn]

When is LOOT not correct? If LOOT really DOES make a relevant mistake, you should tell the people who manage the masterlist.

 

Another thing:

 

If a guide says

'The Load Order has to be a, b, c"

 

This can also actually mean that both b and c have to be loaded after a. But whether b or c comes first might not be relevant in that particular case. This fact might just not be mentioned in the guide, to avoid confusing the user.

 

So if LOOT ends up sorting a, c, b this wouldn't necessarily be a mistake.

 

If you could give us an example, where you think LOOT really makes an error, I'll look it up for you in xEdit, if that "error" is really actually a problem or not.

 

 

BTW, the message about cyclic rules can also appear, if your custom rules, groups and the masterlist rules are conflicting. So if you insist on a has to be loaded after b and you create a custom rule for that, but b is actually in a group that is to be sorted after the group a is in, then you'll have a contradiction and will see this message.

[Darkf0rge]

Well to give you a big example. I am following the Nordic Skyrim guide on the nexus site and it has a load order doc that goes with it, which suggests otherwise than what LOOT does.

Now normally I would just accept what LOOT decided was correct, but I am seeing some issues in game than I am trying to troubleshoot that seem to be load order issues but hard to pin down.

 

Also I have just reached the 255 plugin limit even with a bashed patch and need to start thinking about merging appropriate plugins.

Vortex's stubbornness around loot order and how it displays such a long list of plugins is making this a bit tricky

 

Keep in mind I am not bashing Vortex it's already the best mod manager I have ever used, but this is the one area of frustration for me.

[Grestorn]

If you create patches or merged mods yourself, you should make certain that they're loaded after all mods they're overwriting. LOOT cannot help there, because your custom mods cannot be in the masterlist.

 

But that's quite easy to accomplish by giving those mods a separate group, as I've already explained.

 

About the 'Nordic Skyrim guide': Can you explicitly tell me where the order of that guide and the order of LOOT contradicts each other? Because I want to check of these contradictions are really relevant or not. Which can be determined with xEdit quite easily.

[Darkf0rge]

Ok thanks for your responses Grestorn.

 

Yes it was due to the groups the mods where currently set too. So I have it sorted out now.

Only issue I really have now is the plugin merges. Every guide I have seen suggest to merge only the esps loaded close to each other. Regardless if this is true or not. It's a bit confusing to go through such a long list to nominate best potential candidates with how loot sorts things. I understand this is not really a vortex issue, but any advice on this front would be appreciated or suggestions how to manage this better

[Grestorn]

Well, there's not 100% right or wrong for this. I'd consider the following points:

 

• Merge only plugins which you probably never want to disable individually
• Merge only plugins which are stable and won't update often (because then you have to recreate the merge)
• Obviously, all plugins you've merged into a single plugin are loaded together, i.e. there cannot be a separate plugin loaded "in between" a set of merged plugins. That's why it's recommended to merge plugins which are "close together" in the load order, but that's just a hint. It's more important to understand what plugin overwrites which records. If a plugin was previously 'in between' a set of plugins you have merged, but is itself not part of that merge, you have to place it before or after that merged plugin - obviously. As long as it doesn't even touch any of the records modified by any of the merged plugins, you're fine either way. Otherwise you should consider to include in in the merge or make sure, that either loading it before or after the merge gives you the intended result.
• Personally, I would always merge plugins which belong together. Like "all armor mods and their patches".
• In the end, xEdit is the one tool which clarifies if you end up with the intended results. Get familiar with that tool :smile:

 

Hope that helps. :smile:

[coreypikes]

First, I haven't used Vortex yet, planning on giving it a try after I get through FO4 at least once.

That being said, the only issue I have with the whole LOOT controlled load order is simply this. LOOT can completely bork a load order quick, fast, and in a hurry. Take Oblivion for example. When LOOT was first released, I was working on a new LO for Oblivion. Now, with Oblivion, I have a core set of mods I always use. So much so I know exactly where they go. I know what they overwrite, what they need to overwrite, and what needs to overwrite them. After completing the installation of all my mods I went ahead and gave LOOT a try in sorting my LO. The result was bad. Train wreck bad.

Since then I've used LOOT with FO3, with the same result. Mods in places they should not be. That's not because I say they shouldn't be there, it's because the authors of said mods, xEdit, modding common sense, and the community as a whole, says they shouldn't be there.

For newer games (New Vegas, Skyrim, etc) LOOT is good at putting mods in the correct area (i.e. this mod needs to overwrite this one, etc), mostly, but still makes some pretty questionable choices. However, when playing the older Bethesda games, LOOT can be absolutely clueless to what it's doing.

Now, I'm well aware that the BOSS crew are the makers of LOOT. I'm also well aware that they're the one's updating the masterlist. However this new algorithm their using or whatever witchcraft it is, can and does make mistakes.

Now the point of this ramble is simply this. LOOT isn't all knowing, and solely depending on it to sort a LO is a terrible idea.
But, this is just my opinion and my personal experience.

[Grestorn]

Without proper examples, this rant doesn't help much. And if you see a blatant error, which results in a malfunctioning setup (and not just an aestheticly worse load order), you should tell the LOOT team instead of complaining here.

[coreypikes]

Without proper examples, this rant doesn't help much. And if you see a blatant error, which results in a malfunctioning setup (and not just an aestheticly worse load order), you should tell the LOOT team instead of complaining here.

I do/have report/ed the issues. Also, I'm not complaining, simply voicing my opinion.