Questions about resource loading

[LawrenceFB]

I have some questions about Vortex and Skyrim resource loading.

As I understand it there are two parts to installing mods. The first is plugin (esm,esl,esp) load order. This order, using 'the rule of one', sets the record used in the game to the last copy of the record loaded and can lead to conflicts that can be ignored, with the favored plugin been loaded last, or requires someone to provide a patch that merges the conflicting records in some way.

Vortex uses LOOT in an attempt to minimize the requirement for patches by using a 'masterlist' to sort the plugins so record conflicts do not produce undesirable results in the game and allows the user to provide extra information, possibly from the author or community, to help resolve issues unknown to LOOT . This can be enough, but the person installing may be required to install or make the patches mentioned above.

Then we come to the second part of game setup, ordering the loading of the other game resources. This is meshes, textures, sounds, scripts, dlls and whatever else is needed by a mod to make the desired game changes. Here we come to the difference between bsa and loose files.

To load a bsa, which is basically a zip file with all the resources for the mod in it, a plugin is required, even if it not modifying any records. Due to the 255 plugin limit this is a problem for heavy moders as this 'wastes' a plugin slot. Also all bsa are loaded first, in plugin order, and all the resources in each bsa are 'logical' loaded into the game to be overwritten by later bsa or loose files.

Mods, with or without plugins, that have loose files have their resources loaded after all bsa files. For loose files the file that wins is the last loaded and any loose file always win over a file in a bsa. This can also lead to issues as resource loading for plugins with loose file may not respect plugin order and so the wrong script/dll may be used.

So if my uderstanding is correct I have the following questions.

How do I ensure the plugin load order honors the resource order when the plugin rules do not have conflicts? E.g I like mod A resources over mod B where there is a conflict, so if the plugin rules do not required mod A to be loaded before mod B and mod A is not a bsa while mod B has loose files, mod A will have its resources added after mod B.

Is there a warning if scripts/dlls are from loaded from the 'wrong' mod?

Is there some way to load a bsa without a plugin, or arrange to unpack the bsa but load the loose files as if it was still a bsa?

If/when single file override is provided will this be done by using a loose file? Unpacked from a bsa if required and not by renaming files. E.g If mod A has every thing I want but has a really bad texture for one item, when I indicate I do not want this texture or want to use a texture from another mod, Vortex will put a loose file with the desired texture in the 'Data' directory unless a later resource already satisfies the request.

I have endevored to not be contentious. Any mistakes are my own.

[Deleted3897072User]

This confused me at first but it does work out. There are two different things that are being called 'load order'

1. The order that mods are deployed into the data directory (which is important for resolving conflicts between identically-named loose files)
2. The order that plugins are loaded into the game (which is important for resolving conflicts between what is inside esp's and bsa's)

They are each controlled by rules but they are two different sets of rules. If you drag the little icon from one mod over another mod in the Mods window, it creates a 'deployment rule' whereas doing it in the plugins window creates a 'game load' rule and it's those that generate what is generally understood to be 'load order'

 

Hope this helps..

[kamikatze13]

To load a bsa, which is basically a zip file with all the resources for the mod in it, a plugin is required, even if it not modifying any records. Due to the 255 plugin limit this is a problem for heavy moders as this 'wastes' a plugin slot. Also all bsa are loaded first, in plugin order, and all the resources in each bsa are 'logical' loaded into the game to be overwritten by later bsa or loose files.

[...]

 

Is there some way to load a bsa without a plugin, or arrange to unpack the bsa but load the loose files as if it was still a bsa?

 

This is the reason i haven't jumped ship to SSE yet - MO2 doesn't support BSA loading w/o dummy plugins.

 

We BSA unpack now? ^{Arthmoor and Tannin will be overjoyed :'D}

[LawrenceFB]

This confused me at first but it does work out. There are two different things that are being called 'load order'

1. The order that mods are deployed into the data directory (which is important for resolving conflicts between identically-named loose files)
3. The order that plugins are loaded into the game (which is important for resolving conflicts between what is inside esp's and bsa's)

They are each controlled by rules but they are two different sets of rules. If you drag the little icon from one mod over another mod in the Mods window, it creates a 'deployment rule' whereas doing it in the plugins window creates a 'game load' rule and it's those that generate what is generally understood to be 'load order'

 

Hope this helps..

 

Thanks for the mention that there are two sets of rules in play. I had not seen that in any of the posts I read except for a vague reference in 'Feedback'.

 

So do 'Mod' rules have any affect over 'Plugin' rules if 'Plugin' rules do not require a reorder?

 

E.G I have mods A and B which have loose files that I want be deployed in that order. They have plugins that appear in the plugin window in the order B A. I set a 'Mod' rule of A B. I sort my plugins, does that sort ensure that if there is no reason to reorder the plugins based on 'Plugin' rules that they will placed it the order A B or do I have to have a 'Plugin' rule as well even though the reason is not esp based but resource based.

 

I understand that reordering esp to reduce/resolve conflicts is a good idea and then using xEdit to patch or suggest user rules, but I would concerned to have to use 'Plugin' rules to resolve 'Mod' loose file deployment.

[HardwareSc8]

Basically, it works like this: If you want a file from B (like a texture, say), let's call it "C.dds," to overwrite the file C.dds in A, you would set up A to load before B in the Mods tab. Therefore the file C.dds that the game reads as installed is the one from B. As far as it's concerned, the C.dds from A doesn't exist at all. No matter what order the plugins are in, only the C.dds from B is going to load in-game, because as far as the game engine can see, it's the only one there.

 

So, no, plugin ordering and rules have no effect whatsoever on what assets are installed by install ordering and rules.

[LawrenceFB]

Is the 'Mod' window updated by the 'Plugin' window esp load order for bsa?

[HardwareSc8]

No, the tabs stick to whatever sorting scheme you've got selected at the top of the window; by default in the Mods tab, alphabetically by name. The only way that would change is if you selected another way to sort them, or added new mods.

[LawrenceFB]

 

So, no, plugin ordering and rules have no effect whatsoever on what assets are installed by install ordering and rules.

 

 

So if 'Plugin' rules disagree with 'Mod'/'Install' rules for mods with loose file even though there as scripts, dlls or some other resource the esp relies on you have to use rules in both windows to keep them synchronised? Or is this simple a case that could not happen? This is not a new problem and most likely cannot be resolved without user intervention.

 

I guess 'Mod' rules cannot be set on mods with bsa.

[LawrenceFB]

No, the tabs stick to whatever sorting scheme you've got selected at the top of the window; by default in the Mods tab, alphabetically by name. The only way that would change is if you selected another way to sort them, or added new mods.

 

Sorry, you now have me really confused. I am talking about load order nor display order. If I have a mod called AAAA with loose files and another mod called ZZZZ with a bsa, then the resources from AAAA will always 'win' over ZZZZ. Nothing I do in the Mods tab will change that.

 

I do mean it when I say I am confused :) . I do not mean to be contentious or argumentative, I am just trying to understand.

[HardwareSc8]

Oh, sorry. Guess I was confused, too...

 

No, as far as I know the "loose files over .bsa" behavior is hard-coded into the game engine, so no, nothing you can do will change that.