Nobel Peace Prize

[Luxar]

You say that those which died in these towers were innocent? No one is innocent anymore in the western world, not even I. We are all helping in the worst crime ever to occur. We are all criminals of the worst kind and most of us are not even realizing it. How blind have we become? Do we think that we are invincible? Do we think that we can rule the rest of the world forever? As I said, 11th September was a first reaction, a first sign. Finally, justice will be done. All the blood we spelt and still spill will come back on us. People are dying so that we can live in luxury! Every day, every hour! Blindness has come upon us. I know that I am a criminal and that it would be only just if I would die. But some people, like Bush, are even worse. They acctually believe that their crimes are what is right.

Well, Darnoc, you almost had me thinking until you said that. Clearly, you supported the terrorists who destroyed THOUSANDS of innocent lives in just a few short hours, lives of people who may have done great things...A person in the WTC may have been the one to find the cure for cancer, or be the president who makes all of YOUR dreams come true. But we will never know, because some downright HORRIBLE people decided they wanted to kill a bunch of innocents to further their own cause. And what was the terrorist cause? To bring about the destruction of the western world and all the people who live within it. That is something I can never support. And yes, Darnoc, those people WERE innocent in the World Trade Center. What crimes have they committed, exactly? What crimes have you committed as well?

 

"Not rebelling by sacrificing my life for a cause I don't really believe in" is not a crime.

 

As a side note, I took this little snippet from wikipedia:

 

Other allegations include:

 

* Uday feeding victims into a wood-chipping machine, or throwing them into an acid vat.

* Uday kidnapping young, attractive Iraqi women from the streets in order to rape them. Judith Miller, a senior reporter for the New York Times, said that if the woman showed a "peep of protest," then the woman's family would receive her body parts back in a box, courtesy of Uday.

 

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uday_Hussein

 

I was unable to find any evidence of the rolling pins, I suppose that was just jargon I picked up some time. Sorry about the misinformation. And the term "People Factory" was what it was at first referred to as, and as such that is why I called it that.

[Mojlnir]

Luxar, you missed the point (again) of that particular piece of Darnoc's diatribe. He is trying to point out implicit guilt on the part of all Westerners (not just Americans) for the crimes that Western governments have committed against the rest of the world. But since you don't like history, we'll leave out the confusing historical details.

 

He does not support terrorists either, if you read his argument carefully. What he is arguing about is basically a belief in divine justice. That is not supporting terrorists. You are right to point out that those terrorists were "horrible" people who committed an act so foul it defies logic, but be careful who you run around calling a terrorist supporter.

 

Also, just thought I'd point out that your quote from wikipedia smacks of sensationalism. There's a reason those two little parts are separate from the others, its heresay. I'm not denying that there may be truth to them, but once again you're grabbing the most schocking bits of info and trying to make a case with them. If you keep this up, you could get a job working for Chenny and Rummy up in ol' DC.

 

Uday and Saddam were completely separate people. The son, Uday, was certifiably insane. He was unstable to the point that Saddam replaced him as his heir because he was a political liability. But we didn't go to war to remove Uday Hussein. If you want more info on Saddam and his sons, I'd be happy to supply you with the bibliography I have from a seminar paper I wrote on Saddam.

[ozz]

Before I get started here I want to make 2 points A) I'm a native born american and B) I'm ex-military. So as far as I'm concerned I've earned my right to my say.

To begin it is true that the US routinely tramples on those who are to weak to stand up to us. We interfere in the internal politics of other nations ( which we would not tolerate there doing to us) and we have and do support terrorist groups. For instance the right wing death squads that rampaged through Nicaraqua, the Indonesian government that slaughtered 200,000 East Timorans, Saddam himself and Turkey in their 20 year campaign against the Turkish Kurds.

This country was built on the exploitation and abuse of one minority group after another as they came to this country. The Mexicans are just the latest group to suffer here. We export our jobs to third world sweat shops. The next time you're in a store pick up some of the merchandise and look at where it was manufactured. Most of our toys are made in china.

As to the world being better off without Saddam, that goes without saying. It would also be better off if Rawanda was at peace, if Kim Yong II were deposed, if haiti was quiet and if ethic strife world wide was dealt with. But we have not and will not deal with these issues because there is nothing for us in there resolution. Since this is our guiding principle we can claim no moral superiority to the tyrants we leave in power, after all if it a good thing to remove one it would be a better thing to remove all. Saddam was the weakest of the tyrants and he had oil that is why we attacked him.

If we were really interested in taking the pins out from under some of these people we would do better to conserve. Quit driving gas guzzlers, develop alternate fuel sources, quit being the most wasteful people on the planet. We have only about 2 per cent of the world's population, but we use almost 25% of the worlds resources. Our properity is the worlds impoverishment. Greed is ugly no matter how you justify it.

As to the WMD question our insistence on an ABM system is threatening to spark a new arms race and Bush boy is talking about developing a whole new line of mini-nukes and atomic bunker busters. These weapons are intended to be more useable because of their small yields. They are however still nukes and their use ANYWHERE is a war crime. Anyone who doubts this need only consult the list of such offenses, international treaties forbid the use of nuclear weapons against a civilian population. Bushs' new toys, however, are designed to be used in just that fashion.

I see a great deal being written herein about self interest and looking out for ones citizens and ones nation. There is a great difference between looking out for ones own interests and trampling on everyone elses. Because we are openly doing that the good will of the world, which we enjoyed after 9-11, has been dissapated and wasted, just so we could trash one tenth rate tinkertoy dictator. It was scarcsly worth it.

 

 

Justice must not only be done it must be seen to be done

[Amarant Coral]

A bit on-topic, but...

I live in Norway, and the suggestion that Bush should get the Peace prize is laughed at. The jury said that there was no chance he would win it.

:)

 

Nuff said.

[Breton Thief Oriana]

Oh, thank god (You know, the one I don't believe in?)! for a secon there I thought he had a chance.

[thanateros]

Who here has seen Michael Moore's Bowling for Columbine?

 

We (as in Americans) are a nation built from fear. This country was founded out of fear of religious persecution. When we got here out of fear for our lives instead of learning from the Native Americans we mercilessly slaughtered. Still, this cycle continues, from the War for Independence to Slavery through the Civil Rights movement Americans have always been divided from each other through fear, consumer enterprises, and the grotesquely flawed public education system.

 

Think about how, up until college, we are fed the same mindless garbage for the first 18 years of our lives; by then why would we at all be motivated to change anything? And even if we wanted to, most likely we don't have enough capital to buy our way into a politician's pocket. We are systematically engineered to believe what our government tells us to believe and to accept that the "American Dream" is our ultimate goal. We are a nation of mindless consumer sheep; the only interest left in the country is that of big business. I bet most people don't know that WTO consistently sues the crap out of this country because of our high tarifs against foreign products; we don't want competition stemming from a global market. We live in an era where political interest is big business; modernity is leaning towards western governments needing the support of big business opperations to legitimize their authority.

 

Now about this debate on we Americans being terrorists. You remarks, Shakkara, are the most ignorant rage-filled statements I've read in a long while. I do not support this country's military actions against the middle east, and to call me a terrorist really makes me wonder what propaganda their feeding you. How can you put up such a well crafted argument and propose we are all like our leaders. Calling me a terrorist carries the same meaning as if someone from the KKK were to call a black person n*****. So if you even think for a second that your generalizing our leaders' actions to an entire population has any validity whatsoever you are truly ignorant of the modernity that influences political authority and action in the postmodern world.

 

If that argument will not carry than consider that most European governments would react in the same fashion as the United States should 1) a terrorist attack occur at the same magnitiude as the WTC bombing and 2) if they had the military presence and strength of the United States.

 

http://www.cdi.org/terrorism/europe-us.cfm

 

Furthermore, terrorism in Europe is domesticated (to a much larger degree than the US, though we still have the KKK and racially organized gangs but on a demographically microcosmic level), so the fact of the matter is, judging from your assertions on how evil we are, would be more likely to support an organization hellbent on trying to inject fear into a civilian population rather than looking at the much larger, much more complicated picture.