My experience with rule-based plugin sorting in Fallout 4

[kamikatze13]

Good evening,

 

i finally decided to both take up FO4 as well as let VO loose onto it. The journey was quite nice, until now...

 

I'm currently trying to get the correct load order between TrueStorms+VividWeathers+DarkerNights+TS-VW-DN-MergePatch - and with >15 plugins involved it's a nightmare.

 

Maybe i'm tired, maybe i'm retarded, maybe even both - but after creating twenty-something rules to cover the relevant plugins (cause LOOT is putting each plugin into the wrong order if i ever exclude it from the rules) i lose track and have to start from scratch, since i've forgotten which plugin i was currently at, which rules i have already created and which i have yet to do. Yes i know i can read it up under 'manage dependencies'. no it's not helping.

 

I tried top-down, bottom-up, "transitive" rulesetting - i end up with unmanageable complexity and start again.

 

I'm both out of ideas as well out of breath. My next move is locking each plugin to a specific index.

 

And since i'm here, scrolling through 200 mods/plugins lags incredibly - is it only on my end?

[kamikatze13]

After a coffee, i decided to create a new profile, disable all but the aforementioned mods, create the supposed load order via index-locking each plugin and finally daisy-chaining the plugin sorting rules.

after over a week of using VO to recreate a specific mod list, this is my verdict on rule-based load order:

 

http://i0.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/facebook/000/024/153/soundsgood.jpg

 

ADDENDUM:

 

 

f***. me.

 

the upper darker nights plugin has a mod index of B1 (lower prio) despite there existing a rule which forces it to load after the plugin at the bottom, which has the index B3 (and thus getting a higher prio and thus breaking the sorting rule). and no it's not index-locked - i double-checked.

 

Consider this a bug report.

 

ADDENDUM 2:

 

 

after a restart of VO, some of my plugins are locked to index 0 (all of the disabled ones), even though they were not locked before restart.

 

removing the index locking on each plugin and restarting VO reverts them to being locked to index 0.

 

This is another bug report.

 

WORKAROUND: for each plugin affected: toggle index-locking off->enable->get it sorted onto a position->toggle index locking on for this plugin->toggle it off again-> restart VO

[SkunkMonkey]

If you want plugins to load in a specific order use priorities. Dependencies aren't really meant to control load order, only enforce a hierarchy based on a plugins masters.

 

By default, all plugins get a priority of 0. So if you want to set the order of plugins at the top, use negative values and positive ones for plugins you want at the bottom.

 

If you wanted them sorted at the top, this would get you your order:

 

TrueStorms - Global priority: -4

VividWeathers - Global priority: -3

DarkerNights - Global priority: -2

TS-VW-DN-MergePatch - Global priority: -1

 

If you wanted them at the bottom:

 

TrueStorms - Global priority: 1

VividWeathers - Global priority: 2

DarkerNights - Global priority: 3

TS-VW-DN-MergePatch - Global priority: 4

 

If you want to group a bunch of related plugins, say item naming patches, set them all to the same Global priority and use Local priority to sort within that group.

 

By using priorities your plugins will also sort the way you want them to.

[kamikatze13]

kudos, priorities seem to be more appropriate

[sopmac45]

If you want plugins to load in a specific order use priorities. Dependencies aren't really meant to control load order, only enforce a hierarchy based on a plugins masters.

 

By default, all plugins get a priority of 0. So if you want to set the order of plugins at the top, use negative values and positive ones for plugins you want at the bottom.

 

If you wanted them sorted at the top, this would get you your order:

 

TrueStorms - Global priority: -4

VividWeathers - Global priority: -3

DarkerNights - Global priority: -2

TS-VW-DN-MergePatch - Global priority: -1

 

If you wanted them at the bottom:

 

TrueStorms - Global priority: 1

VividWeathers - Global priority: 2

DarkerNights - Global priority: 3

TS-VW-DN-MergePatch - Global priority: 4

 

If you want to group a bunch of related plugins, say item naming patches, set them all to the same Global priority and use Local priority to sort within that group.

 

By using priorities your plugins will also sort the way you want them to.

 

 

Brilliant SkunkMonkey .... I appreciate that info ... question please ? I checked my load order and the Unofficial Patch had a Global Priority of -120 ..... what is the "last-negative-number" and the "last-positive-number" allowed in a giving load order ( if there is any ... ) ?

 

Regardless of the number ( -120 ) of my Unofficial Patch, Lanterns of Skyrim is loading before, but it does not have any number ... it was set to be the first one via dependencies. Should I give it -121 ?

 

On the other side of my load order ( bottom ), My Home is Your Home has a Global Priority of 60 but Flower Girls is my last mod before my SSEMerged patch .... is 60 the max positive number or I can go further ? Flower Girls does not have any btw. It was set to be the last one via dependencies.

 

Thanks so much ... :cool:

[spyvspyaeon]

If you want to group a bunch of related plugins, say item naming patches, set them all to the same Global priority and use Local priority to sort within that group.

By using priorities your plugins will also sort the way you want them to.

 

I am not sure if I did well but in my case I did not the priority but rather the index (it worked and never has issue on a specific mod that needs to be strict to the top LO, just after fallout4.esp). The lock mod index at least explains that. I wasn't sure about priorities since I have loads of mods and some of them already has it own priority.

[SkunkMonkey]

 

Brilliant SkunkMonkey .... I appreciate that info ... question please ? I checked my load order and the Unofficial Patch had a Global Priority of -120 ..... what is the "last-negative-number" and the "last-positive-number" allowed in a giving load order ( if there is any ... ) ?

 

Regardless of the number ( -120 ) of my Unofficial Patch, Lanterns of Skyrim is loading before, but it does not have any number ... it was set to be the first one via dependencies. Should I give it -121 ?

 

On the other side of my load order ( bottom ), My Home is Your Home has a Global Priority of 60 but Flower Girls is my last mod before my SSEMerged patch .... is 60 the max positive number or I can go further ? Flower Girls does not have any btw. It was set to be the last one via dependencies.

 

Thanks so much ... :cool:

 

 

The possible values range from -127 to 127 with zero being the default.

 

Some games have a group of predetermined global priorities and they are listed here: https://loot.github.io/docs/contributing/Global-Priorities.html (note: SkyrimSE is not listed, but I assume the regular Skyrim rules do apply)

 

Obviously, you will need to work within the constraints of those priorities, but with the given range of values, there is plenty of room to work with.

 

I would also like to add that sorting by these priorities seems a little wonky at times and I have had to fudge the numbers and do repeated sorts to get things right.

For example, I went to set priority on a few plugins starting with 1 then going up by 5; 1,5,10,15,etc. I was having problems because it would always sort 5,1,10,15.... The only way I could get 5 to come after 1 was to set 5 to 100, sort, set back to 5, sort again. Then the order was correct. I also found that if U used Wrye Bash to move to correct location, it would stick as well. FYI: none of the plugins I was trying to sort had master list rules that would have been interfering.

 

It can be a lot of work setting priorities on a bunch of plugins, but the power to control absolutely where a plugin sorts is a very useful feature IMHO.

[sopmac45]

 

 

Brilliant SkunkMonkey .... I appreciate that info ... question please ? I checked my load order and the Unofficial Patch had a Global Priority of -120 ..... what is the "last-negative-number" and the "last-positive-number" allowed in a giving load order ( if there is any ... ) ?

 

Regardless of the number ( -120 ) of my Unofficial Patch, Lanterns of Skyrim is loading before, but it does not have any number ... it was set to be the first one via dependencies. Should I give it -121 ?

 

On the other side of my load order ( bottom ), My Home is Your Home has a Global Priority of 60 but Flower Girls is my last mod before my SSEMerged patch .... is 60 the max positive number or I can go further ? Flower Girls does not have any btw. It was set to be the last one via dependencies.

 

Thanks so much ... :cool:

 

 

The possible values range from -127 to 127 with zero being the default.

 

Some games have a group of predetermined global priorities and they are listed here: https://loot.github.io/docs/contributing/Global-Priorities.html (note: SkyrimSE is not listed, but I assume the regular Skyrim rules do apply)

 

Obviously, you will need to work within the constraints of those priorities, but with the given range of values, there is plenty of room to work with.

 

I would also like to add that sorting by these priorities seems a little wonky at times and I have had to fudge the numbers and do repeated sorts to get things right.

For example, I went to set priority on a few plugins starting with 1 then going up by 5; 1,5,10,15,etc. I was having problems because it would always sort 5,1,10,15.... The only way I could get 5 to come after 1 was to set 5 to 100, sort, set back to 5, sort again. Then the order was correct. I also found that if U used Wrye Bash to move to correct location, it would stick as well. FYI: none of the plugins I was trying to sort had master list rules that would have been interfering.

 

It can be a lot of work setting priorities on a bunch of plugins, but the power to control absolutely where a plugin sorts is a very useful feature IMHO.

 

 

 

It went "south" in my end, let me explain.

 

Initially I setup my load order based on dependencies ( this mod after this one, etc, etc ). As soon as I saw this post, to use priorities instead, I restarted my game and when I opened my map, it did have several colors of all kind, like the same we got with Ethereal Clouds or nights .... so I knew that something was wrong. Also, when I was casting my magic, I had some "squares" in the path of my magic and my unrelenting force also was leaving streams of squares as it was flying / flowing away from my mouth .... I decided to reset my priorities and I left my load order as it was ( setup by dependencies ), deleted all the saves games and went back to my save prior to setup my load order with priorities.

 

Everything was back to normal, no issues of any kind and I continued playing my game as normal.

 

I think that priorities should be chosen instead dependencies ( from the very beginning when setting up the load order ) but once you setup your load order via dependencies and you try to add the priorities, then everything got screwed up. I do not know. This is my first time ever dealing with dependencies and priorities because back with NMM we did not have to do this at all. Perhaps you or somebody ( perhaps Tannin ) could explain why that happened and add some important information that we are probably missing or I am missing, I do not know but it would be nice to know this from A to Z so we, users, should decide what path to choose when setting up our load order.

 

I am still learning this stuff and I appreciate SkunkMonkey your input and your help because learning is the only thing out there and the more we know, the easier everything is.

 

Question to you SkunkMonkey :

 

>>> When setting priorities, should they be set in the Local Priority window or inside the Global Priority ? I remember now that I entered my priorities in the Global Priority instead Local and I do not know if that was the problem. Any idea ? Thanks so much and thanks in advance to whoever would like to add something else. :cool:

[SkunkMonkey]

A global priority gets sorted across all other globals. Locals only get sorted within the global they are under. So if you set all your weapon mod plugins to 50 so they all group together, but you want one of them to always sort first within that group, set it's local priority to -10 (since defaults are zero). Local priority only comes into play after the global.

 

Did that help or just make it more confusing? lol

[sopmac45]

A global priority gets sorted across all other globals. Locals only get sorted within the global they are under. So if you set all your weapon mod plugins to 50 so they all group together, but you want one of them to always sort first within that group, set it's local priority to -10 (since defaults are zero). Local priority only comes into play after the global.

 

Did that help or just make it more confusing? lol

 

 

My head is spinning ... lol ... :ohmy: ... no, I understand the concept SkunkMonkey .... well, a bit .. lol ... :confused: ... just kidding ... yes, what you said makes sense, thanks again for the explanation ... I am brand new to this to be honest, a rookie, a novice ... I admit it but there is always a beginning and I am very happy to learn from you or anybody else ... thanks a lot ... I just woke up, have my cup of coffee with me and when I did read this, I was like a yo-yo, up and down .. what ? Is it my coffee or am I still dreaming with Vortex ? ... lol ... :laugh: