Why Ulfric was right to kill the High King

[MacSuibhne]

 

Rediculous? Have you like, never been in an discussion like this before? I mean, what you're saying is like saying that I can't talk about other movies when discussing the merits of a single movie. Its rather ridiculous on your part.

 

But indeed, that comparison is fair. Though I don't remember where it was ever said that Torygg was for the Dominion being in the Empire's business.

 

It's apples and oranges...that's why it's ridiculous. The post in question was using works of fantasy to compare and evaluate issues of situational ethics. In fantasy anything goes...so no comparisons are possible.

 

Fantasies are free--there is no cost associated with them. So it is easy to believe that appeasement and passing the burden of a much more powerful AD onto the next generation is unimportant. And in the context of Skyrim, that might be true. But in the context of a forum and a thread such as this one, and in the face of charges of racism (which are pointedly aimed at people who think that the Stormcloaks and Ulfric represent a more honourable path) they are non-trivial.

[CaptainRC]

As I play the game, it becomes more and more clear to me that Ulfric was wrong, not in just killing the High King, but starting this whole civil war. Reason being:

 

Ulfric Stormcloak may be a strong leader, but he is definately not a smart one. His reasons may be noble (personally, I believe that freedom of religion is a right and that anyone should worship whomever they please) but his goals are far too shortsighted. He just wants to drive the Legion and the Thalmor out so that they can get back to worshipping Talos and honoring the "old ways." But despite the fact that he is a Legion veteran who fought against the Thalmor (and got captured) during the Great War, he completely underestimates the dangers of what he is doing. Anyone who has fought against the Thalmor who has two brain cells to rub together knows that the Thalmor are not satisfied with the White-Gold Concordat and plans to finish what they started. General Tullius and Legate Rikke know it. (They subtly hint it to the Dragonborn after taking Windhelm.) Paarthurnax knows it. (Informs the Dragonborn that defeating Alduin is not his ultimate destiny.) Delphine outright SAYS it. ("The Empire barely survived the last war. They [the Aldmeri Dominion] don't intend to lose the next one.") And if Ulfric had any sense in that mass of protoplasm that he assumes to be a brain in his skull, he would realize this as well, and know that starting a civil war to secede from the Empire would not only weaken the Empire, and thus allow the Thalmor conquer it, but also leave Skyrim defenseless once the Thalmor are done with the Empire.

 

And should that happen, the ban on Talos worship and the lack of honoring "old ways" would be the LEAST of their concerns.

 

But... he doesn't. Because he's just an raging egomaniac obsessed with power and too stupid to realize that he's being played by the Thalmor like a secondhand lute. Read their dossier on him when you infiltrate the Thalmor Embassy if you don't think so.

Edited May 26, 2012 by CaptainRC

[fraquar]

There is not a "right" time for a civil war - there is simply a point where you cannot tolerate the status quo any longer. It's not gonna get better by waiting either.

[cooltrickle]

For people who hate Ulfric, do you also feel the same way about the Redguard leader who is responsible for Hammerfell rejecting the White-Gold Concordat treaty and leaving the Empire? And let's not forget the leaders of the Black Marsh or Elsweyr who seceded from the Empire. Didn't they "weaken" the Empire? Why aren't their motives being judged or is criticism only reserved for Nords? Due to the actions of these provinces, the "Empire" only consists of Skyrim, High Rock and Cyrodil and I expect the latter is full of Thalmor soldiers. Skyrim and High Rock have the advantage of tough, rocky terrain populated by some of the toughest warriors in Tamriel making it a nightmare for any attacking force to conquer. So, why should Skyrim or High Rock for that matter, give up and make it easy for the Thalmor with these advantages?

 

Ulfric, is the only Jarl who has has the guts to defy the Thalmor openly. Other Jarls are less decisive; they support the Empire but still let their subjects worship Talos. This is cowardly. If they disagree with the terms of the treaty then they should show it, like Ulfric. If they had, perhaps Ulfric would not have felt it necessary to kill Torygg. Torygg died because he was indecisive. He should have made an effort to get a feel for where the other Jarls stood and act accordingly. He was lazy and placed his faith in the "Empire". The same Empire that incompetently lost half of its provinces. He failed so Ulfric killed him. Good riddance.

 

I would say right now, as always, the future of the Empire lies with the actions of the Nords not the Imperial City. When the Nords have wiped the floor with the Thalmor, perhaps they will offer the throne to one of Andorak Septim's descendents and Ulfric will be the undisputed High King of Skyrim.

[fraquar]

Last I remember that dossier said dormant contact, uncooperative and that a Stormcloak victory is NOT in the Thalmor's best interest. The real question is who is playing who here?

[CaptainRC]

Did you notice that it also says that an Imperial victory is not in their best interest, either? And that it mentions that when Alduin attacked Helgen, the Thalmor assisted Ulfric (without his knowledge, of course) in his escape? Notice that when the Dragonborn and Hadvar encounter Ralof again before entering the keep, Ulfric is nowhere to be found? Notice that it also mentions that when they had captured him the first time, they allowed him to escape, knowing full well that what he would do could only benefit them? And also that direct contact was also a possibility? Did you even bother to read it all the way through? The Thalmor WANTED the civil war to continue, and took advantage when the opportunity presented itself. Yes, he is most definitely being played. And, of course things don't get better by just waiting... you have to WATCH while your waiting. Impulsiveness can cost you a country just as easily, if not more quickly. Edited May 26, 2012 by CaptainRC

[landy8]

Yet the siege of Solitude is not followed by AD attack. Nor does AD attack the Empire (what's left of it) or Skyrim in the middle of the war, when both sides are weakened.

Let's not forget that not only the Empire was weakened by the last war, but Dominion too. And attacking Skyrim unified under Ulfric's rule will not be the smartest thing.

 

Besides... Being afraid to worship Talos (the founder of the Septim dynasty, the most powerful dynasty in Tamriel's history), allowing Thalmor to do what they want on your own territory, obeying semi-suicidal emperor (anyone completed the DB line knows what I mean), and being unable to deal with the Stormcloak rebellion swiftly and effectively after all...

 

That's not the Empire I fought for in previous four chapters!

[sajuukkhar9000]

Yet the siege of Solitude is not followed by AD attack. Nor does AD attack the Empire (what's left of it) or Skyrim in the middle of the war, when both sides are weakened.

Let's not forget that not only the Empire was weakened by the last war, but Dominion too. And attacking Skyrim unified under Ulfric's rule will not be the smartest thing.

The AD not attacking after The Siege of Solitude is entirely due to gameplay and not lore.

 

The game's scope doesn't go past the end of the civil war/Alduin's defeat, the AD would never attack no mater how long you waited, just like no matter how long you wait in Oblivion the Empire wouldn't fall apart as it did in lore.

 

However that doesn't mean that, in lore, the AD didn't attack right after The Siege of Solitude, just like how, in lore, The Empire pretty much stated falling apart immediately after Martin turned into Akatosh.

 

 

Also the AD wouldn't attack during the civil war, that defeats the purpose of them starting it. They would only attack after keeping the civil war going as long as possible and when they see that even with their interference one side is gonna win.

 

Attacking before you have drawn out a conflict for as long as possible, when your entire goal was to make the conflict last as long as possible, is dumb.

 

 

Furthermore the weakened combined forces of Alinor, Elsweyr, and Valenwood would be more powerful the the combined weakened forces of Skyrim.

Edited May 26, 2012 by sajuukkhar9000

[trukittn]

And if Ulfric had any sense in that mass of protoplasm that he assumes to be a brain in his skull, he would realize this as well, and know that starting a civil war to secede from the Empire would not only weaken the Empire, and thus allow the Thalmor conquer it, but also leave Skyrim defenseless once the Thalmor are done with the Empire.

 

And should that happen, the ban on Talos worship and the lack of honoring "old ways" would be the LEAST of their concerns.

 

But... he doesn't. Because he's just an raging egomaniac obsessed with power and too stupid to realize that he's being played by the Thalmor like a secondhand lute. Read their dossier on him when you infiltrate the Thalmor Embassy if you don't think so.

 

Baseless insults (which the anti-Ulfric crowd always seem to throw into their arguments... wtfins. 6.6; ) aside, a weakened Empire is not Skyrim's problem anymore. If the Empire wanted what was left of it - which isn't much! - to remain strong and united, it should have acted like it. Instead, they sell Skyrim's beliefs to the Thalmor. Just as they sold them a portion of Hammerfell. Hammerfell didn't stand idly by and let this happen either. As I said in another thread, there's really no Empire left at this point and they've no one to blame but themselves for caving in to the Dominion. It is they who openly and knowingly push the Aldmeri agenda of world domination closer to success. That dossier is proof only of Ulfric's past and the Thalmor's underestimation of his ability to win this war.

 

As for whether or not Skyrim can stand against the Dominion without the Empire: look only to Hammerfell, who is currently doing just that. Skyrim doesn't need the Empire. As far as I'm concerned, its the other way around.

 

Let's not forget that for either side, winning requires dovahkiin support. Therefore, in my game, it is almost certain that Skyrim will recover from Imperial/Thalmor Occupation and be stronger for it. After all, Ulfric has the Dragonborn on his side. ;) Meanwhile I believe the Empire will either succeed to the Thalmor like Elsweyr did, or possibly see its own revolt where the people shrug off their association with the Dominion with their blood and their steel. But that's just my little slice of Tamriel. I figure all you Empire-joiners are hosed and might as well pick up your pointy-ear hats and fake gold suntan lotion so you can blend in with the new world order, because your leaders are running out of things to sell. :P

[landy8]

Furthermore the weakened combined forces of Alinor, Elsweyr, and Valenwood would be more powerful the the combined weakened forces of Skyrim.

 

And what about the combined forces of Skyrim, Hammerfell and Argonia (Argonians would be really dumb to think Thalmor would deal with them differently then they did with Khajiits). And maybe High rock as well.

 

And to wait too long and miss an opportunity to attack your enemy when he already began to recover is even dumber.