Why Ulfric was right to kill the High King

[landy8]

To MacSuibhne

 

:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[sajuukkhar9000]

Ulfric used the Voice "for purposes of conques" only once - when he took Markarth from the Forsworn. Tell me he was wrong!

As for the Graybeards - Ulfric was not a Graybeard and never intended to be one. He just recieved a training to use some Shouts. If Thorygg was a real High King, and not just a... man who thought the Legion can protect him from everything, he would receive some training himself.

 

Except most High-Kings have not had training in the voice since the ancient days.

 

Voice use has not been exactly common since the First Era.

Edited May 24, 2012 by sajuukkhar9000

[landy8]

Except most High-Kings have not had training in the voice since the ancient days.

 

Voice use has not been exactly common since the First Era.

 

Even jarl Balgruuf tells you that he made a pilgrimage to High Hrothgar. What was he doing there? Picking snowberries?

Neither Balgruuf nor the Greybeards explain what was he doing there though. I'm curious. Did he ask old guys to train him? Did they reject?

[sajuukkhar9000]

Even jarl Balgruuf tells you that he made a pilgrimage to High Hrothgar. What was he doing there? Picking snowberries?

Neither Balgruuf nor the Greybeards explain what was he doing there though. I'm curious. Did he ask old guys to train him? Did they reject?

Making the pilgrimage just means he walked up the 1000 steps, while going to all the plaques, stopped at the door, and went back down.

 

That doesn't mean he actually got inside the building and got training, in fact he cant even use the voice himself.

Edited May 24, 2012 by sajuukkhar9000

[landy8]

Making the pilgrimage just means he walked up the 1000 steps, while going to all the plaques, stopped at the door, and went back down.

 

That doesn't mean he actually got inside the building and got training, in fact he cant even use the voice himself.

 

I've noticed it when I stormed Whiterun. But what was a point of climbing 1000 steps, reading the plaques and turning back at the door? Sure, the scenery is great, but did he make it all just to receive that animals' attack preventing blessing? I doubt it.

[BrettM]

Ignoring the dragonborn, who are not subject to normal rules, there is certainly one rule in modern Skyrim: the Voice is not to be used in combat. Using the Voice for purposes of conquest is deemed an abuse of the power.

 

Ulfric used the Voice "for purposes of conques" only once - when he took Markarth from the Forsworn. Tell me he was wrong!

As for the Graybeards - Ulfric was not a Graybeard and never intended to be one. He just recieved a training to use some Shouts. If Thorygg was a real High King, and not just a... man who thought the Legion can protect him from everything, he would receive some training himself

Ulfric used the Voice to defeat Torygg. Using the Voice aggressively to defeat an opponent -- whether the opponent is an army or an individual -- and take something from that opponent -- whether it be a city or a title or simply a life -- is conquest. Using Shouts in a duel is just as forbidden by the Way of the Voice as using Shouts to take a city.

 

Ulfric himself says he was in training to be a Graybeard from the time he was a boy. Where do you get that he never intended to be one? If you join the Stormcloaks before doing "Dragon Rising", Ulfric has a lot of dialog on what it means to be dragonborn and his own history with the Graybeards. The Graybeards do not train just anyone who walks up to their door and asks. They aren't even like the College of Winterhold, which will admit any student who passes some test of ability.

[sajuukkhar9000]

I've noticed it when I stormed Whiterun. But what was a point of climbing 1000 steps, reading the plaques and turning back at the door? Sure, the scenery is great, but did he make it all just to receive that animals' attack preventing blessing? I doubt it.

The point was climbing the 1000 steps and tracing the path of your ancestors, it wasn't about getting voice training.

 

Its like climbing Mount Everest, you do it to do it, not to get magical traning.

Edited May 24, 2012 by sajuukkhar9000

[etang2]

Ignoring the dragonborn, who are not subject to normal rules, there is certainly one rule in modern Skyrim: the Voice is not to be used in combat. Using the Voice for purposes of conquest is deemed an abuse of the power.

 

Ulfric used the Voice "for purposes of conques" only once - when he took Markarth from the Forsworn. Tell me he was wrong!

As for the Graybeards - Ulfric was not a Graybeard and never intended to be one. He just recieved a training to use some Shouts. If Thorygg was a real High King, and not just a... man who thought the Legion can protect him from everything, he would receive some training himself

Ulfric used the Voice to defeat Torygg. Using the Voice aggressively to defeat an opponent -- whether the opponent is an army or an individual -- and take something from that opponent -- whether it be a city or a title or simply a life -- is conquest. Using Shouts in a duel is just as forbidden by the Way of the Voice as using Shouts to take a city.

 

Ulfric himself says he was in training to be a Graybeard from the time he was a boy. Where do you get that he never intended to be one? If you join the Stormcloaks before doing "Dragon Rising", Ulfric has a lot of dialog on what it means to be dragonborn and his own history with the Graybeards. The Graybeards do not train just anyone who walks up to their door and asks. They aren't even like the College of Winterhold, which will admit any student who passes some test of ability.

Thats right, to become a Greybeard, there has to be evidence, not physical, but something else that you are worthy.

[trukittn]

A lot of things changed in the world after Ulfric was summoned to High Hrothgar and began his training. He likely did have every intention of living his life out there on the top of that mountain. But war changed all that.

 

And if you learn anything at all about Ulfric through the course of the game - its that he's a patriot who will do anything for Skyrim. Some misjudge his intentions as a selfish thirst for power or something more sinister, but if you are diligent enough to witness all of his dialogue, I don't think that image can hold water. "I would gladly retire from the world, were such a day to dawn." says he when Galmar says that men like them wouldn't be needed if words alone could win wars. "No, but I belong to her." is part of his last stand when Rikke tells him that Skyrim doesn't belong to him.

 

So its my opinion that when he came back from the great war and saw what was going on, he was willing to do whatever it took to set things right. So what if he used the thu'um during the duel? From the sounds of it, he could have taken Torygg bare handed with a monkey on his head. That Torygg accepted the duel, knowing it was his death, is what got him into Sovngarde I think. Could it have been the first act as High King where he showed some measure of backbone I wonder? Too bad it was his last.

 

As for the legality of Ulfric's shout, that depends entirely on who you ask about it. Just as players argue about the validity of conflicting accounts present in the game now, when the Fifth Era rolls around I'm sure there will be equal amounts of writing and storytelling that call his use of the thu'um a resounding cry for justice as there will be those that call it a monstrous misuse of power.

[etang2]

Still, what Thu'um did he use if he did near tear Toryg arpart?