Why Ulfric was right to kill the High King

[trukittn]

Ulfric only knows Unrelenting Force and Disarm. Likely the former is what he used, though I feel the 'tore him apart' bit is just some melodrama added by whoever decided to grace your ears with that line.

[sajuukkhar9000]

Ulfric only knows Unrelenting Force and Disarm. Likely the former is what he used, though I feel the 'tore him apart' bit is just some melodrama added by whoever decided to grace your ears with that line.

 

Defiantly, in fact several NPCs make mention of how the "shouting him to pieces thing" is made up.

[MacSuibhne]

I've heard over and over again that he did not kill him with the shout but only disarmed him...

[imperistan]

Ignoring the dragonborn, who are not subject to normal rules, there is certainly one rule in modern Skyrim: the Voice is not to be used in combat. Using the Voice for purposes of conquest is deemed an abuse of the power.

 

Only according to the Greybeard's irrelevant mountaintop philosophy. Few down in the real world know nor care about the Way of the Voice. No one is speaking of Ulfric as if he abused some ancient power, they're standing in awe of it. And this is because the Greybeards have withheld this power from the general population for years now, when at its height, it used to be something every Nord took up alongside his sword.

 

I'll say it again, Jurgen Windcaller was an arrogant man who was terribly embarrassed when he was shown that the Voice doesn't make him invincible. He saved face by creating his little philosophy that never applied to the Thu'um. The Way of the Voice wasn't something that was just casually forgotten when Men first received the Thu'um, it was a total fiction created by Windcaller so that he didn't have to admit that he was wrong. That he convinced the other major Tongues of his theory was only because his voice was more powerful than all of theirs. It was literally no different than a master having to show up someone who wouldn't accept their mastery by totally kicking their ass.

 

And do note that after Windcaller's coup, the Thu'um died out among most normal Nords. This is because not just anyone can teach others the Thu'um. You need people who have spent their lives dedicated to it, and the Tongues were the only ones who had done this. Other Nords who knew how to use the Thu'um only knew enough to do simple shouts (as even the masters of the Thu'um only know so much, so common people won't know much more) and over time they died out, leaving only the Greybeards and those they taught (the seldom few) who could use the Thu'um (the Dragonborns likely stopped using the Thu'um after the last few hostile dragons died out).

 

Still, what Thu'um did he use if he did near tear Toryg arpart?

 

Nord's have a great propensity for exaggeration. We already know from fighting Ulfric that his voice isn't anything special, so it isn't likely that Torygg got "torn" apart.

[BrettM]

Jurgen did not out-Shout the other Tongues, he withstood their Shouts. "Jurgen Windcaller chose silence and returned. The 17 disputants could not shout Him down." If he was silent, not using the Voice, then he hardly kicked their asses, though he did demonstrate great mastery in being able to withstand them.

 

I think it's a poor interpretation to claim that he invented the Way of the Voice as a means of saving face. Between the end of the Dragon War and the advent of the Way, the Voice was being used to establish dominance over others rather than protect themselves against or free themselves from dominance. Jurgen came to feel that this was arrogant and an abuse of power. Isn't it? I would certainly agree with him, and all those capable of teaching the thu'um at the time apparently came to agree with him as well. Including Paarthurnax, the original teacher.

 

Paarthurnax adopted the Way of the Voice for the same reason that Jurgen advocated it: to combat his inner urges to strive for dominance. Knowing the thu'um is a constant temptation to abuse the power, both for dov and joorre. Power corrupts. The dov cannot help knowing how to Shout, but the power can at least be withheld from non-dragonborn mortals unless they seem likely to follow the Way.

 

The Graybeards are highly respected by the Nords. Balgruuf, who has made the pilgrimage and read the tablets, is certainly in awe of them, as are those residents of Ivarstead that you can question about High Hrothgar. When the Graybeards speak, Nords listen. To call them "irrelevant" is a disservice, as Nord culture was significantly changed when their philosophy was adopted. Yes, the guards are in awe of Ulfric's supposed ability to shout someone apart, but they also seem to consider such a thing murder, and their awe is tinged with horror.

 

Ulfric was clearly tempted by the power of the Voice and began to use it to establish his dominance and supposed right to rule. How does that make him different from Alduin? The dragons may generally believe that he with the strongest thu'um is the only one worth listening to, but men are not dragons and should not govern themselves by dragon rules.

[imperistan]

Its the same difference really.

 

Except he totally did do it to save face. He fought at Red Mountain against the Chimer/Dwemer and when the Nord's were defeated, he came away embarrassed. He thought the Thu'um invincible and a bunch of elves proved him wrong. No Nord, particularly back then, would have gone through such an event and not come away embarrassed. Again, Nord's exaggerate a lot. I highly doubt that things went the exact way we're told. Another proof of that fact comes in what he was doing when he was proven wrong. He was fighting elves, at the head of a conquering army. Unless you're telling me Windcaller is a terribly written character, there was no way that Windcaller just came to realize something like that all of a sudden (for no reason than it just dawning on him) given what he was doing.

 

And as for Paarthurnax, he's driven to agree by his own guilt. That much is obvious, and quite frankly I'm surprised it wasn't Paarthurnax who came up with the philosophy. His guilt for his species had always lead him to it after all.

 

That may be, but the pacifist philosophy of the Way is irrelevant. It is all well and good and to be wary of being tempted by dominance and trying to stamp that problem out, but to deny yourself the ability to use the Thu'um wisely (using it as the Greybeards do is a waste) is to deny yourself and your people to become greater. To take a quote (which I think I'm about to butcher no less) from the movie Thor, "You carry Mjolnir, a weapon to destroy, and a tool to build. A wise companion for a King". Thu'um is precisely like that. It is that difference that makes me call the Way of the Voice irrelevant (not the Greybeards themselves, though truly they are irrelevant no matter how respected they may be. They only time they even get involved with anything below 10,000 feet is when the Dragonborn asks them to), because its fundamentally flawed. It holds back the potential good the Thu'um can do for mortal men out of an extreme fear of the terrible bad that it could also do.

 

Men are not like dragons. Evil and dominance are not an inherent instinct.

 

They feel terror because they know not of the Thu'um. It is not something to fear unless you decide to make enemy of one with a voice of their own.

 

There's a difference between establishing dominance as the worthier King, and establishing dominance as the potential Tyrant. Ulfric is a better king than Torygg was ,both as a warrior and in the court. If Torygg was as worthy a king as Ulfric was, he never would have died and wouldn't have waited for Ulfric to come and grovel for his support against the Empire. He would have done it on his own, as any true King of Skyrim would have done. He would have mopped the floor with Ulfric's blood (Thu'um or not) or better yet dismissed his petty challenge. The High King of Skyrim has no reason to pay any attention to some insignificant Jarl's son.

 

Dominance of the latter kind is the kind that the dragon's were so fond of, as were the Nords of old when they went conquering. Dominance of the former kind is a worthy and honorable endeavor (and always has been, even in the real world), particularly when your home is in dire need of a King who can truly lead it. Even in the real world, and to this very day, this remains true. If you can demonstrate something that would prove that your opponent is unworthy of his post (or attaining the post you're both going for) then you will use it, and no one will say you were dishonorable for it. And in Tamriel, what Ulfric did was such a demonstration. However, its being thrown in the mud by those who don't understand, those who won't understand (because they're too upset over Toryggs death) and those who will grab at any straw to displace Ulfric's position (because they're at war with him).

[BrettM]

It is all well and good and to be wary of being tempted by dominance and trying to stamp that problem out, but to deny yourself the ability to use the Thu'um wisely (using it as the Greybeards do is a waste) is to deny yourself and your people to become greater.

Somewhere in the Great Beyond, Boromir is beaming with pride at this line of argument. He couldn't have said it better himself. Such folly to throw away the One Ring thu'um when strong and true-hearted warriors could use it to set everything right! I hear Delphine applauding in the background.

 

The thu'um is less dangerous than Tolkien's One Ring in many ways, but in some ways it may be even more dangerous. The possession of the One Ring by someone who is true keeps it out of the hands of those who are not so true. The same can't be said of the knowledge of the Voice. Does the world really need Black Briars and Silver-Bloods with Tongues in their families? Or would this just escalate the fight between them and those who stand against such corruption, leaving the average Nord helpless and ground down between the opposing forces?

 

Everybody loves the old heroic stories and legends. We love stories about Odysseus, Charlemagne, King Arthur, etc. The Nords love stories about Ysgrammor, King Harald, Tiber Septim, etc. But nobody with a lick of sense really wants to go back to life as it was really lived in those times. It's one thing to dream of being a hero leading a grand army, but another thing to actually live as an ordinary person with the great heroes and their armies waging war around you and on you.

 

Ulfric dreams of the great old days when a king ruled by crushing his foes and his people loved him for it. The reality is that anyone who didn't "love" the king would quickly find themselves at the pointy end of a sword. In the end, life was good for the king, but not so much for everyone else.

[imperistan]

There's a massive difference between the One Ring and the Thu'um. The One Ring inherently brings out the deepest evil in you as a matter of how its magic works. The One Ring is a literal entity itself and a totally evil one at that.

 

The Thu'um is nothing like that. Its a power thats virtually no different than the most powerful magics other than in the way its manifested. Thats it. No inherent evil. No inherent temptation to be a total dick. Whatever evil comes about through the use of the thu'um is not truly because of the thu'um but because of the evil those men carried in their hearts.

 

And if thats the basis of withholding it, then we should be banning weapons, magic, and anything else that could be used offensively. Kings and all notions of power should be banned.

 

Call it a slippery slope if you want but that illustrates the ridiculousness of withholding knowledge of a certain power in a world populated by powerful magic and all kinds of powerful weapons and beings.

[MacSuibhne]

Has it gotten to the point where people can't distinguish between fantasies...much lest between reality and one fantasy world?

 

Maybe that's why so many are drawn to the Empire and its unholy alliance with the AD--they're hoping to meet Arwen Evenstar.

 

http://www.thehcc.org/discus/clipart/crackup.gif

[StayFrosty05]

Has it gotten to the point where people can't distinguish between fantasies...much lest between reality and one fantasy world?

 

Maybe that's why so many are drawn to the Empire and its unholy alliance with the AD--they're hoping to meet Arwen Evenstar.

 

http://www.thehcc.org/discus/clipart/crackup.gif

 

I don't know, your telling the story...if this is correct, then what your suggesting is there are those among the Stormcloak supporters who are hoping to meet Adolf.