Why Ulfric was right to kill the High King

[sajuukkhar9000]

And what about the combined forces of Skyrim, Hammerfell and Argonia (Argonians would be really dumb to think Thalmor would deal with them differently then they did with Khajiits). And maybe High rock as well.

 

And to wait too long and miss an opportunity to attack your enemy when he already began to recover is even dumber.

The Hist dont care about The Thalmor, and the Argonians wouldn't do anything until The Hist told them to.

 

As for a Hammerfell/Skyrim alliance, it would be possible for the AD to win.

 

 

Well that is why I said they would attack right before, or right after the Civil War was over, but they would draw it out as long as possible before they do to maximize the damage it does to both sides.

Edited May 26, 2012 by sajuukkhar9000

[imperistan]

Couple things.

 

People on the Empire side always seem to forget about Hammerfel. If the Dominion couldn't break them in 5 years (after being fought to a standstill within months no less) then they'll never be able to do anything a fully fledged force of multiple provinces with full, non militia-aided armies. Unless, of course, they have years upon years upon years upon years (at least a hundred) to rebuild what they lost during the Great War. And they're currently about 50-75 years off of that full recovery.

 

You have to realize that the Dominion's army consisted entirely of elves (primarily Altmer. Bosmer likely were secondary and the Khajiit never actually participated in the war other than in harboring troops. The two kingdoms of Elsweyr likely won't get involved in a next war either. There is simply no indication anywhere that they have any reason to be apart of the Dominions plans of conquest nor ever were in the first place) and the thing about elves, especially Altmer, is that they're extremely long lived (and as such what we'd call mature in our society is still child-like in theirs) and breed extremely selectively. This means that in the 30 years since the Great War ended, the Dominion would not be able to really build up not only what they lost but the forces necessary to take the rest of Tamriel. They'd need at least twice the forces they had in Hammerfel and Cyrodiil (at the height of their occupation no less) combined to take Skyrim alone. (there's a reason every military leader in world history will tell you an invasion through mountains is essential insanity unless the force you're putting into the mountains is obscenely powerful compared to the opponent) Very much less the resistances of Cyrodiil, Hammerfel, High Rock and whatever's left of Morrowind. And Argonia? Good luck getting in the front door without an army already strolling out to meet you just for looking at the province funny. And if any of those provinces banded together against the Dominion? Lol.

 

I'll say it again, the Dominion was, is, and always will be crap. Their only real weapon is cloak and dagger, and the only force on Tamriel thats going to fall for it (and is falling for it) is the Empire. After they've already had it used against them once already no less. The only province they could ever hope to take with any real amount of ease (as the Empire supporters oh so like to act like they can totally do such a thing) is Cyrodiil, and thats only because its national structure is slowly falling apart.

 

And as for Ulfric and the Thalmor, again, that doesn't make him nor his war a bad thing. Fact of the matter is that the war continuing is the problem, and neither side will end it. Ulfric has no reason to cease the war when the Imperials have already made their intentions clear.

[CaptainRC]

You know, I'll admit I took a rather biased view, myself, and made a rather heated argument, and for that, I apologize. But let's all remember that this is just a GAME, people! This is not a political debate, or worse, an argument for an actual war. And yet, here we are arguing over the motivations of someone who only exists as pixels on a screen. It's as if all of the old arguments over George W. Bush's justification for the invasion of Iraq are spilling out all over this forum. So, let's all just tone it down (myself included), ok? Before the moderators decide to take action and lock this forum. Or worse, they decide to suspend our memberships. Peace, people. Peace with a touch of maturity. Let's exercise some for once. Edited May 27, 2012 by CaptainRC

[landy8]

Since this topic in not closed yet...

 

The Hist dont care about The Thalmor, and the Argonians wouldn't do anything until The Hist told them to.

 

Paarthurnax once told your character something like "your su'um is strong". So why not to send the Dragonborn to Black Marsh to convince Argonians, the Hist or anyone else?

 

After the end of civil war in Skyrim High Rock will think twice about its side. And since Talos was born in Alcaire (island or no island), I don't think Bretons (and especially Alcaire's citizens) are very happy about the ban of Talos worship.

 

And don't forget about Morrowind. Sure, Vvardenfell is an uninhabitable wasteland now, but Morrowind is not only Vvardenfell. Give Dunmer living in Skyrim some rights (to get their support), send Dragonborn to Mournhold (if it's still a capital), and...

 

Oh, and old good Paarthurnax, of course! Do you think no dragon will accept his Way of the Voice? Thalmor will be especially tasty roasted by dragonfire!

 

:biggrin:

[BrettM]

I finally held my nose and made a character that took the Empire side just to get some perspective. (Despite my previous posts in this thread, I am NOT an "Ulfric hater", nor do I hold with arguments based on his supposed racism. I simply have reservations about his motives and find some of his acts questionable, though I support his cause for both philosophical and pragmatic reasons.) While strolling through Riften, I triggered a remark from one of the Imperial Guards there about it being good that the Empire had forces in Riften now because it put them closer to Morrowind ... just in case. Hmmm. The Empire's intentions towards Morrowind may be no friendlier than those attributed to the Stormcloaks.

 

As for Paarthurnax, I would hope that not many dragons would adopt the Way of the Voice, since it would forbid them from fighting. (I would like to have a chat with Odahviing, though, and find out why he considers the Way to be just another tyranny.) What I would like to see is the dragonborn working out some kind of accommodation with the dov that allows peaceful co-existence with the people of Skyrim and the possibility of an alliance. A peace conference between the jarls and the leading dov would be quite a scene.

 

After all, men and dov have lived at relative peace before, between the end of the Dragon War and the appearance of the genocidal Akaviri. There may have been incidents (e.g. Olaf and Numinex), but the Nords and dragons seemed to be live-and-let-live with respect to each other during most of the First Era. There were still many dragons around then, according to Paarth, but they weren't trying to dominate humans and humans weren't trying to exterminate them.

[sajuukkhar9000]

Paarthurnax once told your character something like "your su'um is strong". So why not to send the Dragonborn to Black Marsh to convince Argonians, the Hist or anyone else?

 

After the end of civil war in Skyrim High Rock will think twice about its side. And since Talos was born in Alcaire (island or no island), I don't think Bretons (and especially Alcaire's citizens) are very happy about the ban of Talos worship.

 

And don't forget about Morrowind. Sure, Vvardenfell is an uninhabitable wasteland now, but Morrowind is not only Vvardenfell. Give Dunmer living in Skyrim some rights (to get their support), send Dragonborn to Mournhold (if it's still a capital), and...

 

Oh, and old good Paarthurnax, of course! Do you think no dragon will accept his Way of the Voice? Thalmor will be especially tasty roasted by dragonfire!

 

:biggrin:

The Hist are magical sentient trees that have existed since the dawn of time, and even probably since the past universe, who are only known to communicate psychically to the Aroginan leadership, and are very xenophobic, and anti-imperial. The Hist are the one who told the Argonians to break away from The Empire in the first place.

 

Also while it is true Talos was born a Breton, he rewrote his own past, and the Empire has enforced this altered history for so long, no one knows the truth. The Bretons would not be angry over Talos's ban because they dont know Talos was a Breton, born in High Rock. Everyone thinks he was a Nord, born in Atmora.

 

As for Morrowind, the southern parts up to Mournhold are held by Argonians, and the northern parts, Vvardenfell and the two prongs of the U shape of Morrowind, are still nearly uninhabitable. Morrowind's usable landmass is the paltry middle section, and having them on your side wouldn't mean much because without the Tribunal they were aren't really as uber-powerful as they were before.

Edited May 28, 2012 by sajuukkhar9000

[fraquar]

Imperistan hit the nail on the head, the AD are nowhere near in a good position to wage the scale of war that would be required that many think.

[MacSuibhne]

Imperistan hit the nail on the head, the AD are nowhere near in a good position to wage the scale of war that would be required that many think.

 

It ignores the obvious, however--just as many want to believe that the Empire is playing for time, the AD is certainly doing the same. Moreover, they have the upper hand in that regard, with agents and influence (subversive influence) in Skyrim that the Empire does not have in the AD.

 

The AD will get stronger in the interim...while the Empire gets weaker.

 

And when the final confrontation comes, the Empire will never unify Skyrim simply because too many believe that it is corrupt and has collaborated with the Thalmor.

 

If the AD is too weak to wage war now, then the inevitable jockeying for power and influence, and the shaking out that will occur in wake of a resolution to the Stormcloak Rebellion will go a long ways to unifying Skyrim. If the Stormcloaks win most Nords will unite behind them, regardless of previous allegiances, simply because Skyrim is the homeland of the Nords.

 

If the Empire wins it will be just more of the same...appeasement and temporizing until it's too late.

[landy8]

The Hist are magical sentient trees that have existed since the dawn of time, and even probably since the past universe, who are only known to communicate psychically to the Aroginan leadership, and are very xenophobic, and anti-imperial. The Hist are the one who told the Argonians to break away from The Empire in the first place.

 

Stormcloaks are also anti-imperial. Besides, my Dovakiin has persuaded not only mer and men, but also hagravens, ghosts and even dragons! Why do you think she can't convince some sentient trees?!

 

Also while it is true Talos was born a Breton, he rewrote his own past, and the Empire has enforced this altered history for so long, no one knows the truth. The Bretons would not be angry over Talos's ban because they dont know Talos was a Breton, born in High Rock. Everyone thinks he was a Nord, born in Atmora.

 

Then maybe my Archmage of Winterhold College position can help? Besides, I don't think Bretons and Thalmor have good relations. Bretons are the only non-meric race capable of matching the Altmeri magical abilities, so in Thalmor's place I would do anything to cripple Bretons' magic research and education system. And in Bretons' place I wouldn't be happy about it.

 

As for Morrowind, the southern parts up to Mournhold are held by Argonians, and the northern parts, Vvardenfell and the two prongs of the U shape of Morrowind, are still nearly uninhabitable. Morrowind's usable landmass is the paltry middle section, and having them on your side wouldn't mean much because without the Tribunal they were aren't really as uber-powerful as they were before.

 

I don't think they were uber-powerful even with Tribunal. Tribunal was, but not all of the Dunmer. Tribunal didn't remake their people after all (like Dagoth Ur did). Yet Dunmer are skilled craftsmen, they have good fire resistance (useful in magic-involving battles), some of them are trained warriors, some - powerful mages and skilled thieves. Who's the Windhelm Jarl's guard commander? Who's the former Archmage of Winterhold College? And don't forget Karliah! So I don't think alliance with Morrowind is a bad idea.

 

Besides, do you remember the real history? When the real racists - nazi - started the WWII, UK, USA and USSR made an alliance against them. Can you imagine a more strange alliance than one between USA and UK on one side and USSR on the other? Yet the answer is simple. Racists are a threat to everyone! So such alliances are not a matter of sympathy - they are a matter of survival! Why do you think Tamrielic races and leaders are dumber than english, americans and russians (or Churchill, Roosevelt and Stalin) in real?

[sajuukkhar9000]

Stormcloaks are also anti-imperial. Besides, my Dovakiin has persuaded not only mer and men, but also hagravens, ghosts and even dragons! Why do you think she can't convince some sentient trees?!

The Hist are anti-everyone.

 

Then maybe my Archmage of Winterhold College position can help? Besides, I don't think Bretons and Thalmor have good relations. Bretons are the only non-meric race capable of matching the Altmeri magical abilities, so in Thalmor's place I would do anything to cripple Bretons' magic research and education system. And in Bretons' place I wouldn't be happy about it.

Highrock is a place of many nation-states constantly backs-tabbing each-other, you may be able to convince a handful but that would only ever just make the other ones your enemy. The only real way to get them unified is through force.

 

don't think they were uber-powerful even with Tribunal. Tribunal was, but not all of the Dunmer. Tribunal didn't remake their people after all (like Dagoth Ur did). Yet Dunmer are skilled craftsmen, they have good fire resistance (useful in magic-involving battles), some of them are trained warriors, some - powerful mages and skilled thieves. Who's the Windhelm Jarl's guard commander? Who's the former Archmage of Winterhold College? And don't forget Karliah! So I don't think alliance with Morrowind is a bad idea.

Nords allying with Dunmer?

 

BLASPHEMY, it would be a reasonable assumption if the dunmer still had the heart of Lorkhan to bribe the Nords with, but as it stands now there's no way the Stormloacks would ask for Dumer help.

 

Besides, do you remember the real history? When the real racists - nazi - started the WWII, UK, USA and USSR made an alliance against them. Can you imagine a more strange alliance than one between USA and UK on one side and USSR on the other? Yet the answer is simple. Racists are a threat to everyone! So such alliances are not a matter of sympathy - they are a matter of survival! Why do you think Tamrielic races and leaders are dumber than english, americans and russians (or Churchill, Roosevelt and Stalin) in real?

And look what happened immediately afterwards, the alliances broke down and we nearly annihilated each other during the cold war.