Why Ulfric was right to kill the High King

[MacSuibhne]

Leadership based on physical prowess is an open invitation to tyranny.

 

 

Leadership based on compromise and equivocation is an invitation to slavery...

 

Or suicide.

 

And the case could be made that Unrelenting Force is an intellectual if not spiritual prowess.

Edited May 18, 2012 by MacSuibhne

[Georgiegril]

But Ulfric knew Torygg didn't know it. Using the voice on someone without it is like bringing an AK to an arm wrestling match. Where's the honor in that?

 

This is a red herring.

 

Do you play the Dragonborn? Have you learned Unrelenting Force?

 

How many Dragonborn are in Skyrim?

 

Do you use Unrelenting Force or any other shout on enemies? If they're not Dragonborn or schooled in the ways of shouts, where's the honor in using a shout against them...or anytime?

 

Unless all you care to activate is Kyne's Peace.

 

Any warrior...any general...any king...that will not use the weapons at his disposal to win, isn't fit to lead...on any level.

Well as it happens I mostly do use Kyne's peace, but I am not opposed to sneaking up and throat slitting throats when it suits me--but I am not a Nord, and don't profess to use their code, as he does incessantly. Also, averting the word's end is really not comparable to a power grab. Ulfric is a coward by Nord standards because he was afraid to fight with evenly matched weapons. If he had won in that circumstance, he would have had a better claim. And it seems unlikely that he would loose, but he played dirty to avoid even a small chance. And that's why the other Jarl's did not trip over themselves to support him.

 

If Ulfric's real concern is the good of Skyrim, and not his own ego, then why is his last breath spent, not on the people, but on what form of his death will make a better story? It's all about him.

Must really gnaw on Ulfric (as he draws his dying breath) that the Dragonborn, the savior of the world, isn't a Nord. At least in my Skyrim.:tongue:

[etang2]

Based purely on a humanitarian and moral ethics view point, it has been continuosly stated, historically, that on a fundemental basis, it is not within one mans parameters to make a judgement based purely on said mans intellegence. This being said, this view point has been comprehensively abused throughout the corse of history and indeed, Skyrim on a cataronic level is designed with the express goal of forcing the player to make this morally compromising descision. Yes, in literal sense, the player is really crunching numbers with no real world implications and no repercussions of a more visceral and vivid nature but on a sun-conscious level, greater forces come into play with thisethical dilema.

Indeed, in the game, social conventions involving the questioning of the moral rigiality and integrity are questioned regually, causing a rift between many ingame characters.

In the end, all of the concepts boil down to one coherent question.

"Who is Right"

Although the empire is a foreign agent within the skyrim boundries, it was morally bound by the social incorruptions decreed by basic human constraints whilst the concepts brought about by Ulfric ceeded more to the side of anarchy and more primitive instincts rather than that of the empires unified theory of human existance. ONe also must consider the true intentions of Ulfric and whether he was hiding "Un Autre Faire" or another thing, another path he wished to pursue.

[robanybody2000]

The use of complicated wording as an overall literary technique needs to encompass graphic and individual comprehension to allow the reader to become acquainted with the unique terminological aspects employed by the author whilst not detracting from the application of the specific innuendos influencing the particular methods involved which reflect the tone of the major works in question, thereby altering the quality of the outcome.

[SubjectProphet]

The use of complicated wording as an overall literary technique needs to encompass graphic and individual comprehension to allow the reader to become acquainted with the unique terminological aspects employed by the author whilst not detracting from the application of the specific innuendos influencing the particular methods involved which reflect the tone of the major works in question, thereby altering the quality of the outcome.

 

That had NOTHING to do with the post.

 

People, I'm not asking which side you're on, I was explaining why Ulfric was right to kill Toryg.

[MacSuibhne]

 

Well as it happens I mostly do use Kyne's peace, but I am not opposed to sneaking up and throat slitting throats when it suits me--but I am not a Nord, and don't profess to use their code, as he does incessantly. Also, averting the word's end is really not comparable to a power grab. Ulfric is a coward by Nord standards because he was afraid to fight with evenly matched weapons. If he had won in that circumstance, he would have had a better claim. And it seems unlikely that he would loose, but he played dirty to avoid even a small chance. And that's why the other Jarl's did not trip over themselves to support him.

 

If Ulfric's real concern is the good of Skyrim, and not his own ego, then why is his last breath spent, not on the people, but on what form of his death will make a better story? It's all about him.

Must really gnaw on Ulfric (as he draws his dying breath) that the Dragonborn, the savior of the world, isn't a Nord. At least in my Skyrim.:tongue:

 

Do you believe that sneaking up on somebody and slitting their throat is honourable? Is that a fair fight?

 

I think that most of these discussions about Ulfric fall short on several counts--the first is the propensity to impose modern sensibilities on an ancient world and a very different class structure. If nothing else so few of us are really warriors it is almost ludicrous to think that we can understand a warrior's perspective. Skyrim is a game but real warfare is not...no one gets up and reloads.

 

And that raises the other issue...if we think so little of the developers that we not only cannot play the game they wrote but doubt their depth and subtlety, then why play the game at all? Surely they would not have made Ulfric so unequivocally evil that the Empire is the default choice.

 

To the extent that they had a motive, I think the developers want to make us take a deeper look at the choice between committing to a difficult and uncertain future...and all the occasional even unsavory choices such a future may entail... and playing it safe even if it means compromising everything we say we believe in. And maybe even condemning our children (and theirs) to misery and hopelessness.

 

Ulfric is a man of his times and his milieu--he is a warrior and he is ambitious. He has a vision and believes it is right and that he should have some say in bringing it to fruition...if he can.

 

Ulfric says he doesn't want to be king...so did George Washington.

 

The issue of using a shout is misleading (maybe deliberately so)...the shout is a weapon. There is no question that it is a better weapon than a sword in some instances, just as a sword is a better weapon than a knife...except when sneaking.

 

If one party to a dual brings a knife and the other guy has a sword...someone hasn't taken the issue seriously.

Edited May 18, 2012 by MacSuibhne

[Rossum]

So... rulership in Skyrim is based on physical combat ability? Cool! I think I'll go befriend a giant and ask him to challenge the High King!

 

Though seriously, I can see why a duel for combat prowess would be a big thing in Skyrim since they do live in a land filled with hostile wildlife, monsters, undead, magic, and other stuff. In the game of chess, the King is the weakest piece but taking it out wins the game. A warrior culture like the Nords would be wise in making sure that their leader is skilled in combat and self defense in case he ever has to go into battle or face an opponent or assassin.

 

I haven't gotten to the end of Skyrim but I did get to Solitude and was rather upset at that public execution where they killed the guy who manned the gate. I'll admit he did let out the man who killed the king and a decent gatekeeper should be able to keep people in as well as let them out or in. But the fact that Ulfric challenged that duel, won (by whatever standards the duel had), and then got chased out and accused of killing the King tells me he didn't really think things through enough. If you're going to challenge someone to a duel to the death at least do some preparation to ensure that the outcome is understood by everyone.

 

He may have been right to have that duel and kill the King, but not having the duel public enough that they could see it wasn't murder was a mistake. Of course, he might have worried that the current King might set up something to tweak things in his favor if he had given too much time to prepare but then that just kind of proves the system has flaws.

 

All in all, the system has good intentions but all sorts of problems can happen and that results in stuff like this.

[Stemin]

Leadership based on physical prowess is an open invitation to tyranny.

 

 

Leadership based on compromise and equivocation is an invitation to slavery...

 

Or suicide.

 

And the case could be made that Unrelenting Force is an intellectual if not spiritual prowess.

 

I never said anything about compromise or equivocation. But since you brought it up....

 

A. I think you need to re-learn the actual definition of compromise.

 

B. Regarding Equivocation.... we know an awful lot about the Empire's actions... we know an awful lot about Ulfric's actions.... but unless I'm mistaken we know very little about Toryg (sp?)'s policies and political actions.

 

C. If you really believe what you said about suicide, then I think you need to find more value in life, because having poor leadership is not cause to off yourself. We have some pretty poor leadership in america right now, and there were some pretty strong people who made a name for themselves persevering against terrible conditions such as nazi's, and the slavery you speak of.

[MacSuibhne]

So... rulership in Skyrim is based on physical combat ability? Cool! I think I'll go befriend a giant and ask him to challenge the High King!

 

That's silly. Only those wanting to make a point that can't be made embrace that kind of thinking.

 

As I previously pointed out, shouts are hardly physical combat ability. What rulership...in any land/polity...should be (and for the most part is) is based on is having the ability to react quickly and with certainty. Lots of things can happen on the way to the forum.

 

Even the best warriors get taken down...in real life...by unforeseen events. What makes the difference is being able to adapt and end it before luck or happenstance can intervene.

 

As for thinking things through...Ulfric had the right to challenge the king. Where public opinion goes from there is anybody's guess. Or the way the AD manipulates their subjects (and cronies) in the Empire.

 

Ask Churchill or Lincoln about public opinion and thinking things through.

Edited May 18, 2012 by MacSuibhne

[Stemin]

 

Well as it happens I mostly do use Kyne's peace, but I am not opposed to sneaking up and throat slitting throats when it suits me--but I am not a Nord, and don't profess to use their code, as he does incessantly. Also, averting the word's end is really not comparable to a power grab. Ulfric is a coward by Nord standards because he was afraid to fight with evenly matched weapons. If he had won in that circumstance, he would have had a better claim. And it seems unlikely that he would loose, but he played dirty to avoid even a small chance. And that's why the other Jarl's did not trip over themselves to support him.

 

If Ulfric's real concern is the good of Skyrim, and not his own ego, then why is his last breath spent, not on the people, but on what form of his death will make a better story? It's all about him.

Must really gnaw on Ulfric (as he draws his dying breath) that the Dragonborn, the savior of the world, isn't a Nord. At least in my Skyrim.:tongue:

 

Do you believe that sneaking up on somebody and slitting their throat is honourable? Is that a fair fight?

 

I think that most of these discussions about Ulfric fall short on several counts--the first is the propensity to impose modern sensibilities on an ancient world and a very different class structure. If nothing else so few of us are really warriors it is almost ludicrous to think that we can understand a warrior's perspective. Skyrim is a game but real warfare is not...no one gets up and reloads.

 

And that raises the other issue...if we think so little of the developers that we not only cannot play the game they wrote but doubt their depth and subtlety, then why play the game at all? Surely they would not have made Ulfric so unequivocally evil that the Empire is the default choice.

 

To the extent that they had a motive, I think the developers want to make us take a deeper look at the choice between committing to a difficult and uncertain future...and all the occasional even unsavory choices such a future may entail... and playing it safe even if it means compromising everything we say we believe in. And maybe even condemning our children (and theirs) to misery and hopelessness.

 

Ulfric is a man of his times and his milieu--he is a warrior and he is ambitious. He has a vision and believes it is right and that he should have some say in bringing it to fruition...if he can.

 

Ulfric says he doesn't want to be king...so did George Washington.

 

The issue of using a shout is misleading (maybe deliberately so)...the shout is a weapon. There is no question that it is a better weapon than a sword in some instances, just as a sword is a better weapon than a knife...except when sneaking.

 

If one party to a dual brings a knife and the other guy has a sword...someone hasn't taken the issue seriously.

 

 

Lots of very very good points in this post. I will say this though. There seems to be a large amount of variance in people's opinions of what qualifies as a duel, let alone the honorable part. I don't think they come out and say it in the game, but it doesn't sound like Ulfric challenged Toryg and there was a formal preparation. It sounds like Ulfric came in, announced his challenge and then proceeded to attack. To me, that's a very distinct difference.

 

@ Rossum. I brought it up in the other thread, but someone immediately started this one after... Again, while the game doesn't clear cut come out and say it, it's pretty clear from listening to people that the whole "duel" thing is a NORDIC tradition, but completely illegal under Empirical law. The Jarl's continue to try to act as though Skyrim is a separate nation (or at best a democracy with them being the congress) and this is just simply not the reality.