modder3434 Posted June 11, 2012 Share Posted June 11, 2012 The game makes that clear in its own way too, since the Dominion wasn't threatening Torygg for the Talos worship but was instead specifically threatening the Reach. Igmund himself doesn't mention the High King in any way when he speaks of the Markarth Incident. Wiki's can be edited by anyone, so its no surprise some of the pages like the one you cited are a bit dubiously written. I myself edited the UESP skyrim wiki where it was once written that Ulfric was a Thalmor agent, and obviously that was wrong. Ok...I could quibble but accepting what you state is fine by me. But you quoted the UESP wiki yourself in your original response. What makes one quote from the wiki more factual than the other? And just as importantly...if we cannot trust the Lore section of the wiki what can we trust? What is a definitive source in other words? Bethesda Game Studios, and Todd Howord Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MacSuibhne Posted June 11, 2012 Share Posted June 11, 2012 Bethesda Game Studios, and Todd Howord OK...I'm with you all the way. Where do we get a "reading" from them (either or both)of this and all the other questions that keep popping up? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kraeten Posted June 11, 2012 Share Posted June 11, 2012 (edited) Ok...I could quibble but accepting what you state is fine by me. But you quoted the UESP wiki yourself in your original response. What makes one quote from the wiki more factual than the other? In this case, what made the one I used more accurate was the fact I had first hand knowledge of exactly where they were getting the information. I simply used their words, since the Markarth Incident was so succinctly explained. This really isn't one of my best explanations, I'm embarrassed to say. :sweat: And just as importantly...if we cannot trust the Lore section of the wiki what can we trust? What is a definitive source in other words? Well, I'm rather fond of this Skyrim wiki here. All of the important articles have a lot of discussion behind them, making them pretty accurate. Actually, their "Markarth Incident" is quite well put together. Edited June 11, 2012 by Kraeten Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imperistan Posted June 11, 2012 Share Posted June 11, 2012 One does have to wonder about Ulfric's claim that he doesn't use his training lightly, though. In the fight with Rikke, she was outnumbered three-to-one: Ulfric, Galmar, and you. Was it really and truly necessary to send her flying across the room while taunting and laughing at her? He looked like a guy on a serious power trip during that fight. Once the adrenaline started flowing, a really brutal streak came out. I don't remember that fight, but I'm fairly sure that fight wasn't scripted to happen in any particular way. So the Ulfric NPC using the shout doesn't say anything about the actual man himself. If it was scripted that Ulfric would specifically use a shout, then yes, you would have a point, but I'm fairly certain it was just his AI being AI, not emulating his actual beliefs, motives, or even real actions as a character. Again, that was Jarl Igmund who had him arrested. Regardless of who actually had Ulfric put in chains, Torygg still had the final word on it. Igmund doesn't matter, it was Torygg's word that mattered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kraeten Posted June 11, 2012 Share Posted June 11, 2012 Regardless of who actually had Ulfric put in chains, Torygg still had the final word on it. Igmund doesn't matter, it was Torygg's word that mattered. And Torygg, to the best our knowledge, was silent. This isn't encouraging evidence, but it is different from the claim that Torygg had Ulfric arrested by his personal order which is all I was getting at. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MacSuibhne Posted June 11, 2012 Share Posted June 11, 2012 (edited) And Torygg, to the best our knowledge, was silent. This isn't encouraging evidence, but it is different from the claim that Torygg had Ulfric arrested by his personal order which is all I was getting at. From my perspective it is near-as-nevermind moot. More important is reliable evidence one way or the other. I am not encouraged by dueling wikis. One says Torygg was responsible, the other is essentially silent on the matter of Torygg's ultimate involvement. Yes, I understand Igmond is the man on the scene and the principle but in a hierarchical society, I find it hard to believe that Torygg was not informed. Maybe he didn't pay attention, maybe he didn't think it important but as much as anything that speaks to his fitness to be High King. Edited June 11, 2012 by MacSuibhne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kraeten Posted June 11, 2012 Share Posted June 11, 2012 (edited) From my perspective it is near-as-nevermind moot. Well in my perspective, the distinction is rather important. From Torygg's advisers we learn the young King admired and respected Ulfric. So to see Torygg's absence in this regard is rather interesting. Was Torygg disappointed to see Ulfric arrested or was he torn between duty to his people and his duty to the Empire? We just cannot know. Not with so little information available regarding the character. I am not encouraged by dueling wikis. One says Torygg was responsible, the other is essentially silent on the matter of Torygg's ultimate involvement. The game itself just doesn't offer anything about Torygg regarding the Markarth incident. I'm sure you own the game yourself, these wiki's are made from the same information available to you. When you look at the Markarth Incident, there really aren't many sources to research. Yes, I understand Igmond is the man on the scene and the principle but in a hierarchical society, I find it hard to believe that Torygg was not informed. Maybe he didn't pay attention, maybe he didn't think it important but as much as anything that speaks to his fitness to be High King. Now we get into some very strong opinion territory. On one hand, you can certainly argue that Torygg was a weak and stupid king. On the other hand, should he really die for that? This is a tricky question especially if we believe Torygg's advisers, who claim that Torygg would have seriously considered splitting Skyrim off from the Empire if Ulfric had simply asked him to. Which begs the question, could the civil war have been avoided altogether? And if it could have, what does that make Ulfric? Does he truly value the lives of his countymen? Or is he really just after power? Edited June 11, 2012 by Kraeten Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick2me Posted June 11, 2012 Share Posted June 11, 2012 Toryg also only wanted to impress the High Queen, Elisif. Why try to impress when you lead a land? It made no sense. Ulfric wanted Skyrim to be free from the AD. He wanted the slavery to end. If you follow Hadvar in the beginning, his uncle Alvor will tell you that the AD had very little presence in Skyrim until the Ulfric started the rebellion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MacSuibhne Posted June 11, 2012 Share Posted June 11, 2012 Toryg also only wanted to impress the High Queen, Elisif. Why try to impress when you lead a land? It made no sense. Ulfric wanted Skyrim to be free from the AD. He wanted the slavery to end. If you follow Hadvar in the beginning, his uncle Alvor will tell you that the AD had very little presence in Skyrim until the Ulfric started the rebellion. Yet , at the very least, they had enough of a presence in Skyrim to negate a promise made to Ulfric on behalf of Torygg and Skyrim and enough of a presence to arrest Ulfric...all before the rebellion began. In fact, I suspect a case can be made...regardless of which Wiki we rely on...that the rebellion might not have ever gotten off the ground or even been considered if Ulfric had not felt betrayed by Imperial "agents"--ie, Igmond and Torygg. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imperistan Posted June 12, 2012 Share Posted June 12, 2012 There's a difference between obvious presence and actual presence. A smith from some little down in Falkreath hold isn't exactly someone whose going to be privy to whether or not the Dominion actually has a real presence in Skyrim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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