Why Ulfric was right to kill the High King

[MacSuibhne]

There are more twists and turns surrounding this subject than there are for the debate of the moon landings :tongue: Skyrim tugs at moral dilemmas throughout the game. From the Redguard woman in Whiterun (name escapes me) to the pesty jester Keeper, and killing Paathurnax through to this threads subject. Did Ulfric have the right? Legally according to Nordic custom...yes. Did Ulfric have the moral highground using a shout to defeat his High King? I would say not. Shouts were uncommon, and hadn't been used in battle much for a long time. The Graybeards know more on that history, if you can bear to listen to their Way Of the Voice sermons. Torygg would more than likely not know any shouts...and I look upon the event as an assasination more than a duel...like taking a machine gun to a knife fight

 

I came to these discussions undecided...neither Stormcloak nor Imperial. I came to get perspectives, from both sides, that would help me decide. I guess I'm in the Stormcloak camp now...as much because I've yet to see anyone in the other camp provide concrete evidence to support their point of view. And more importantly what "evidence" is offered seems based on third party hearsay and rumour. And people confusing contemporary sensibilities with what might, or should be expected of a near alien culture.

 

The idea that Torygg was assassinated or even that the duel was illegal is a case in point. There is no evidence to support this argument and much to invalidate it. Again (and seemingly again and again), Torygg was High King--the final word in what was legal or illegal. If he did not want to duel Ulfric he could have had him thrown in jail on the spot. There were witnesses to the duel...it didn't happen in a fog misted and secluded glen. They could have objected, as well.

 

People throw this bit about "moral high ground" around so recklessly. Sure, it's a game but it is also a testing ground for ideas. Who really and truly has the moral high ground in Skyrim? Who behaves honourably? The Empire? ceding sovereignty and the lives of its citizens to a foe that never defeated the Empire? I think not. Tullius who disingenuously tells Rikke to "embroider" the note to Balgruf? Is lying honourable now?

 

It seems it depends on whose ox is being gored...and that's no honour at all.

 

I'm not trying to make the case that there is dishonour on both sides (there is) or that one dishonourable act is more reprehensible than another. I am pointing out that we don't know enough to pass judgement in most of these cases...esp. with regard to the motives of individuals. And yet people coming to this forum base most of their opinions and decisions on hearsay.

 

I, for one, have not seen anything that convinces me that what Ulfric did in challenging Torygg was either illegal or dishonourable...by Nord or game context standards. I have not seen one shred of evidence that Ulfric was honor bound to accede to the Greybeards' expectations. Nor have I seen anything to suggest that using a shout...one probably almost insignificant compared to Dragonborn or Greybeard capabilities...was dishonourable.

 

Duels, since time out of mind, are usually set up in advance and rules and weapons agreed to by the seconds of each party. If Torygg knew and respected Ulfric...as is suggested...he knew that Ulfric had this skill. All the more reason to either decline the challenge or to accept only if Ulfric agreed not to use it.

 

It's like bringing a knife to a gun fight. It impeaches the wisdom of the High King.

 

Was Ulfric equally unwise to use a shout? In retrospect...and in the face of Imperial propaganda...probably so. But the only way to gain wisdom is to make decisions based on the knowledge and experience you already have. Sometimes, as in the case of Torygg, it can be fatal.

 

Some (not all) of that is speculation but in the absence of hard evidence on either side, it's just as valid as any other scenario. The point is that once you start relying on speculation, to ignore or dismiss other possibilities leaves you with nothing but emotion and prejudice.

Edited June 12, 2012 by MacSuibhne

[fraquar]

For me, the incident at Helgen forces the burden of proof on the Imperials that they are the better side to back. Once they put me on the block, badmouthing Ulfric simply isn't enough, they need to show me their virtues and they fail at that miserably.

 

If I start the main quest early, I don't back either side. If anything after that the dragonborn would be more of an arbitrator in the "petty squabble" given the dragon situation.

 

If I don't, well until the Imperials never convince me they aren't as bad or worse for Skyrim as the other option - which only leaves the revenge factor to tip the scales. The Stormcloaks weren't the ones trying to take my head off.....

Edited June 12, 2012 by fraquar

[Kraeten]

After taking some time to read other threads similar in nature to this one, I believe it was wrong for Ulfric to kill Torygg. By robbing Skyrim of its leadership and starting a civil war he's only weakening Skyrim and the Empire. The Dominion alone stands to benefit from the strife. I still admire the Ulfric character, but his methods of seeing his ambitions realized don't meet my criteria of sensible. As a closing question I would ask what is more important, the freedom to worship Talos in the open or the empire he devoted his life to building? I'm inclined to think the latter. Edited June 12, 2012 by Kraeten

[breakwind]

@MacSuibhne, for a start...3 party evidence is all that you can go on as the player is only witness to the events at Helgen. I did not state that the duel was illegal. I don't know where you got the idea that the High King is the final word in Nordic Law, as I thought that the Moot, or council of Jarls were the final word of law.If Torryg refused the duel, the Moot could have stripped him of his title and given it to Ulfric, so Torryg was caught between a rock and a hard place. As for you suggesting that Torryg knew before hand that Ulfric had the power of the shout, well that could be, but going by the surprise of everyone else, I strongly doubt it. Also to test the legal grounds, it is confusing somewhat that Ulfric had to escape Solitude as a fugitive after defeating Torryg. Did he break the law? Whose law? The Nordic law or the Empires? Remember the rebellion only started after this incident. As for your moral comments, individually, there are no 'good guys' in the war. Do not think that I look at Tullius as being better than Ulfric....I would sever his head in a minute. The main reason though, that I usually side with the Empire with my characters, has more to do with my hatred of the Thalmor, than any like or dislike for an individual. In the end in regards to the duelling incident, it probably is a case of 'is the glass half full or half empty?' Edited June 12, 2012 by breakwind

[fraquar]

The Empire Ulfric devoted his life to building doesn't exist anymore, thats the problem in a nutshell. They sold out to the AD.

[imperistan]

After taking some time to read other threads similar in nature to this one, I believe it was wrong for Ulfric to kill Torygg. By robbing Skyrim of its leadership and starting a civil war he's only weakening Skyrim and the Empire. The Dominion alone stands to benefit from the strife. I still admire the Ulfric character, but his methods of seeing his ambitions realized don't meet my criteria of sensible. As a closing question I would ask what is more important, the freedom to worship Talos in the open or the empire he devoted his life to building? I'm inclined to think the latter.

 

 

Thing is, this isn't Talos' Empire. That Empire is already gone and has been for some 200 years.

 

The Mede Empire just wears the remnants of Talos' Empire as a shiny, cannibalized hat.

 

So yes, all that is left is faith in Talos, and what will ultimately end up being the last bastion of mankind if the Dominion isn't faced down in the here and now, ie, Skyrim. Freeing Skyrim from the Empire is Tamriels only hope against the Dominion in the long run.

 

Its the only rally point that will be able to successfully combine the forces of men against the Dominion, and the only province that the Dominion couldn't touch without long decades of extensive warring and invasion (not to mention massive upkeep when they manage to take anything) through other provinces just to get to the front door, not to mention the years it would take just to get past the border mountains that surround all 3 sides of Skyrim and the ultimate killbox that would be Skyrim's northern coasts. The Empire is already falling apart come towards the Civil Wars conclusion and its leadership (that aren't dead yet) ultimately corrupted anyway, so even presuming an Imperial victory in Skyrim, things will still fall apart in time. The Legion will shatter, and Skyrim and High Rock will be left to themselves as Cyrodiil tries not fall to far down the rabbit hole its currently gliding into.

 

And even if we want to play up the Empire as being important, fact of the matter is, its on them to be the better men and end the war. Ulfric has no option to end the war when the Imperials will keep coming at him regardless. His cause is right (and as I've proven multiple times now, is the best hope for Tamriel) so its on the Empire to realize that and actually do what it needs to do.

 

If the Empire will end the war and put in motion the expulsion of the Dominion from itself (and indeed, the actual invasion or at least facing down of the Dominion as well) then Ulfric will cede Skyrim to it, and I'll lay my life on that. That Ulfric stands to gain so much personally from either situation is a red herring. Who cares if one man profits when its the future of Mankind at stake? Fact of the matter is, his cause will lead to the Dominion's demise one way or another, so if the Mede Empire wants to continue its existence it either needs to find itself a Deus Ex Machina or realize that the Stormcloak cause is right and cease this pointless war.

[MacSuibhne]

As a closing question I would ask what is more important, the freedom to worship Talos in the open or the empire he devoted his life to building? I'm inclined to think the latter.

 

 

Often forgotten in these discussions is the fact that Torygg and the Empire betrayed Ulfric when they reneged on their agreement with him for his services with the militia...and when, at the craven behest of the Thalmor, they had him arrested.

 

The right to worship Talos is important to Ulfric and the Nords but it is really just the surface of the problem.

 

But the issue of freedom of religion is central to any concept of "Freedom".

 

If a people doesn't have a firm belief in Freedom and an understanding that relinquishing it in any detail is ultimately relinquishing it entire, they will never have either freedom or peace.

 

The Empire is morally corrupt at this point in Tamriel's history. It is not going to deal with the Dominion soon or even later. Ulfric Stormcloak is simply the tip of the iceberg and more symptomatic of what needs to be changed, and what the inevitable course of history must be, than than anything else. If it wasn't Ulfric it would be someone else. If it isn't now it would be next year.

 

I suspect...and more strongly with every post I read...that many folks don't like Ulfric and never will because he is an authority figure and embodies a central, focused power.

 

As the Founding Fathers of this nation once pointed out, people will suffer oppression as long as it is sufferable rather than exert themselves to change it.

 

People really would rather have a corrupt and incompetent bureaucracy with almost unlimited and arbitrary powers than a strong individual whom they regard as no better nor more qualified to lead than themselves.

 

Nothing else explains the irrational, unsubstantiated antipathy to Ulfric.

[MacSuibhne]

I don't know where you got the idea that the High King is the final word in Nordic Law, as I thought that the Moot, or council of Jarls were the final word of law.

 

From the Lore:

 

Skyrim's Rule:

An Outsider's View

by Abdul-Mujib Ababneh

But as mighty and influential as each individual Jarl is, Skyrim's true power comes from the strength of its High King. The High King is ruler above all, and is always one of the Jarls, selected by a body called the "Moot" - a specially convened council of all the Jarls, who meet with the express purpose of choosing Skyrim's High King. Or so it is, in theory.

 

The reality, however, is that the High King swears fealty to the Emperor, and as Solitude is the city most directly influenced by Imperial culture and politics, the Jarl of Solitude has served as High King for generations. The Moot, therefore, is more formality and theater than anything else.

 

And if you hate the Thalmor, why in the world would you join with those most subservient to them, most in thrall to them, and who aid and abet Thalmor policy in Skyrim more than any other faction/force?

 

The Empire...

Edited June 13, 2012 by MacSuibhne

[Daggdag]

it is said many times in the game that Ulfric enjoys the suffering of non-Nords,

 

Uh, prove it? Ulfric doesn't like foreigners this is true, but he has never abused them. The worst treatment a foreigner can expect is to be ignored. This isn't a good trait, but it really isn't that big of a fault either.

 

These people are still citizens of Skyrim, even if they are not Nords. So, Ulfric's lack of caring for their suffering makes me think that, not only is he not fit to be High-King, but he is not fit to be jarl of Wiindhelm either.

 

So, you think foreigners being ignored is worse than allowing Thalmor agents to violently interrogate/kill your people at will? That's what you're arguing.

 

The Empire may not be perfect, but they do not sit around laughing about dark elve children being murdered by bandits, the way, I assume based on what is said about him in the game, Ulfric would.

 

You assume incorrectly. Ulfric simply doesn't care for foreigners. If he truly took some perverse pleasure in the suffering of elves, he wouldn't allow them to live within his city. Or anywhere near it.

 

Many people in Windhelm say that he will let anyone who isnt Nord suffer, and not lift a finger to help. There is an old saying....."The most evil man in the world is a good man that does nothing in the face of evil."

 

The fact that he is content letting innocents suffer because they are different than he is makes him unfit to be High King or Jarl.

[kevkiev]

I started off as an Empire guy (and did my 1st playthrough for the Imperials) but have become persuaded by the arguments on the other side. Pluse, I just met one too many Thalmor on the road who proclaimed in no uncertain terms that they were planning to eradicate the entire Nord (and human?) race. I realized that my idea of the Imperials fighting back against the Thalmor was just based on hope and imagination, while the Thalmor's plan of extermination was real. (Ignoring that this is all imaginary :tongue:) The most difficult part for me is fighting against Rikke (I really like her character) and feeling like I've betrayed Balgruuf. (But, then again, he made his choice.) Killing Tullius, on the other hand, will be a pleasure. ("You Nords and your damn honour." "You people and your damn Jarls." His initial expression of willingness to sacrifice Whiterun if Balgruuf didn't play Imperial ball. The post Imperial victory exchange with Rikke after she blessed Ulfric with a reference to Talos. Like I said... it'll be a pleasure.)

 

Plus, if the Stormcloaks take Tamriel, I'm thinking the Thalmor won't sit still and will either attack or prod the Empire to do so. Would the Empire try to retake Tamriel (as the Thalmor would surely hope for) or would they realize that it's now or never and form an alliance (uneasy as it may be) with the Stormcloaks to end any Thalmor influence in.... Tamriel and, um, other places.... :tongue: (Okay, this is where my complete lack of lore knowledge, except for the snippets I've picked up from the odd post in this thread and the other one kinda like it, shows itself big time.)

 

Unfortunately, technical difficulties ruined my first chance to play as a stormcloak - I restarted at a way earlier save though, and might give it another shot.