Why Ulfric was right to kill the High King

[Daggdag]

it is said many times in the game that Ulfric enjoys the suffering of non-Nords,

 

Uh, prove it? Ulfric doesn't like foreigners this is true, but he has never abused them. The worst treatment a foreigner can expect is to be ignored. This isn't a good trait, but it really isn't that big of a fault either.

 

These people are still citizens of Skyrim, even if they are not Nords. So, Ulfric's lack of caring for their suffering makes me think that, not only is he not fit to be High-King, but he is not fit to be jarl of Wiindhelm either.

 

So, you think foreigners being ignored is worse than allowing Thalmor agents to violently interrogate/kill your people at will? That's what you're arguing.

 

The Empire may not be perfect, but they do not sit around laughing about dark elve children being murdered by bandits, the way, I assume based on what is said about him in the game, Ulfric would.

 

You assume incorrectly. Ulfric simply doesn't care for foreigners. If he truly took some perverse pleasure in the suffering of elves, he wouldn't allow them to live within his city. Or anywhere near it.

 

Many people in Windhelm say that he will let anyone who isnt Nord suffer, and not lift a finger to help. There is an old saying....."The most evil man in the world is a good man that does nothing in the face of evil."

 

The fact that he is content letting innocents suffer because they are different than he is makes him unfit to be High King or Jarl.

 

Both sides are right and wrong.........The Empire is wrong for allowing the Dominion to dictate the religious rights of it' people.

 

 

The Stormcloaks are wrong because they are biggots, who hate anyone who isnt Nord.

[MacSuibhne]

The fact that he is content letting innocents suffer because they are different than he is makes him unfit to be High King or Jarl.

 

 

What you mean is that Ulfric should play nanny to all the disgruntled and unhappy folks in Skyrim. He doesn't have enough on his plate trying to kick the Thalmor and their minions (the Empire) out of Skyrim, trying to raise and support an army both logistically and inspirationally, he now has to acquiesce to some attenuated, pie-in-the-sky, big-rock-candy-mountain, la-la land notion of universal entitlement?!

 

Re: the Dunmer in Windhelm and why they live in the Grey Quarter...from the Lore:

 

Dunmer distrust and are treated distrustfully by other races. They are often proud, clannish, ruthless, and cruel, from an outsider's point of view, but greatly value loyalty and family.

 

The "peaceful" status quo for Dunmer is still quite savage, even when led by living gods. Political machinations are constant. Assassinations are common...

 

And in the past, in Morrowind and after entering the Empire,they were slavers:

 

Slavery used to be commonplace. Mostly Khajiit or Argonian slaves were trafficked, although many men and mer were also enslaved. The Third Empire of Tiber Septim had banned slavery, but Dunmer were allowed to keep their own sacred and traditional laws in their entrance to the Empire.

 

 

And, just out of curiosity, does letting Citizens of Skyrim be arrested, tortured and summarily executed without appeal to Imperial law or justice qualify in your book as "letting innocents suffer"?

Edited June 13, 2012 by MacSuibhne

[Kraeten]

Thing is, this isn't Talos' Empire. That Empire is already gone and has been for some 200 years.

 

Half of Skyrim disagrees, and there are still plenty of Nords who continue to serve the Empire. Ulfric doesn't improve mankind's chances of victory by fighting against the very same soldiers who helped wage war against the Aldmeri Dominion during the Great War.

 

But the issue of freedom of religion is central to any concept of "Freedom".

 

If a people doesn't have a firm belief in Freedom and an understanding that relinquishing it in any detail is ultimately relinquishing it entire, they will never have either freedom or peace.

 

The Emperor had little choice, Cyrodiil, the heart of the Empire had been left ravaged by the war. The Imperial City itself had been sacked. Cyrodiil could not withstand another invasion.

 

The Empire is morally corrupt at this point in Tamriel's history. It is not going to deal with the Dominion soon or even later. Ulfric Stormcloak is simply the tip of the iceberg and more symptomatic of what needs to be changed, and what the inevitable course of history must be, than than anything else. If it wasn't Ulfric it would be someone else. If it isn't now it would be next year.

 

I might agree if all of Skyrim was up in arms over the White Gold Concordant, but it wasn't.

 

I suspect...and more strongly with every post I read...that many folks don't like Ulfric and never will because he is an authority figure and embodies a central, focused power.

 

I honestly totally agree about that. Although I hope you don't count me among those folks you speak of.

 

As the Founding Fathers of this nation once pointed out, people will suffer oppression as long as it is sufferable rather than exert themselves to change it

 

Except in this case, we know the Dominion won't be satisfied with simple oppression. Soon enough they will try again to conquer Tamriel and the races of men will be forced to fight for their survival.

Edited June 13, 2012 by Kraeten

[imperistan]

Half of Skyrim disagrees, and there are still plenty of Nords who continue to serve the Empire. Ulfric doesn't improve mankind's odds by fighting against the very same soldiers who helped wage war against the Aldmeri Dominion during the Great War.

 

Half of Skyrim won't know how to read either. Do you expect the common rifraff to understand the distinction between the two different Empires? Hell, its doubtful that even the Jarl's and other leaders are that well educated.

 

And the Empire leaves him little choice.

 

The Emperor had little choice, Cyrodiil, the heart of the Empire had been left ravaged by the war. The Imperial City itself had been sacked. Cyrodiil could not withstand another invasion.

 

I'm not explaining this again, so I'll just quote from another topic.

 

So some people are "expendable"...like the poor sods picked up by Thalmor patrols for worshiping their gods and tortured and beheaded?

 

Not to mention the others slated for execution in the Thalmor Embassy basement for who knows what crimes...certainly the Imperial Judiciary system has no say in it.

 

grow a pair. its commendable that you place such a high vaule on everyone's life, but in practice the way the war ended was the best that could have happened given the circumstances.

 

 

I've already shown that you're wrong about the war, multiple times in fact. (First Page) The Empire could have came out of that war far better if it would just stuck with it and used its assets correctly.

 

Giving up some rights is better than forcing hundreds/thousands of civilians to give up their lives to protect those freedoms, like when the cost of the war is too high to justify the reward of keeping it.

 

Problem is, NO ONE WHO WASN'T GOING TO BE IN THE FIGHTING ANYWAY WOULD HAVE BEEN IN THE FIGHTING.

 

Sorry for that but I can't help but hammer this point in. You guys act like if the Empire didn't end the war then and there that the Dominion would have invaded everybody and plunged the whole continent into war, but fact of the matter is, that the Dominion didn't do this shows they never could have. If the Dominion could actually invade the rest of the Empire, why would it wait? It has no reason to accept a modest sampling when it could have the whole damn pig.

 

both sides were badly beaten from the war, i do not think either side had the military power to make anymore demands, the emperor had little strength and could not make any demands. That is the WGC, the result of a war that ended with little strength left to make any demands, so the AD stuck to the original.

 

Except the Empire had all of the strength to make demands. Compare the two forces:

 

Dominion: Three provinces. One's exhausting its troop supply (which make up almost its entire army), one is slowly killing itself while also exhausting its troop supply, and the other isn't getting involved militarily and is at best only providing supplies.

 

Lost an entire invasion army + the reinforcements they needed to push out the Legion in Cyrodiil. Also currently wasting away an entirely separate invasion army on a force that it is doomed to stalemate against.

 

 

Empire: 5 Provinces. One can't fight anymore, another is being invaded and is going to be relatively okay no matter what (even despite the ravaging). Two haven't seen the war and never will. And the other is irrelevant as it blew up a century prior.

 

Lost only half its main grouping of its army, and half of that force can still fight. Still has the forces in Hammerfel fighting (which are going to do well even without any real support from the Empire), and Skyrim and High Rock are prime to provide fresh troops and supplies to support Hammerfel and Cyrodiil. Meanwhile, the forces in Cyrodiil have no reason have no reason to go on the offensive again and what troops can still fight can simply be used in a purely defensive capacity on Cyrodiil's borders (which are mostly abandoned at this point, so even if the war reaches the border again, no civilians will be caught in the cross fire)

 

 

Long story short, the Empire had everything even despite its lossses whereas the Dominion was on its way to the grave.

 

And the post that I linked within that quote:

 

Nope. The Dominion couldn't have destroyed the Empire after the War of the Red Ring. If they couldn't waltz over Hammerfel, one province, in the 5 years they spent fighting them, they weren't going to waltz over the rest of the Empire. There might not have been the ability to invade the Dominion at the time, but there was no way the Empire was going to lose against the Dominion. Hell, after the War of the Red Ring, the Empire could have easily demanded the surrender of the Dominion, or at the least a non-negotiable, non-conditioned truce. The Empire had more than enough resources to draw on to both support Hammerfel and defend other borders. (without committing exhausted troops mind you)

 

And no, you can't just take the time (or rather, this much time) to recover with the Dominion, and certainly not in the way that they did. You're giving the Dominion back their advantage by waiting things out with them and giving them free reign to undermine your entire Empire. Indecisiveness hesitation, and appeasement will not win you the war against the Dominion.

 

No, the Empire gave up because the Empire only cares about Cyrodiil. Cyrodiil was the ONLY province during that war that was suffering heavily that the Empire actually cared about. Hammerfel was suffering just as bad as Cyrodiil was, but the Emperor ordered it abandoned in an attempt to take back the Imperial City. Did you catch that? The Emperor, ordered Hammerfel abandoned, to save Cyrodiil. And then he decides to give the Dominion what it wanted, purely because Cyrodiil was in bad shape, but according to the Empire's leadership, they were "sparing" the rest of the Empire.

 

But lets look at the facts here. Cyrodiil was in bad shape. So was Hammerfel. At the wars conclusion, Cyrodiil was completely empty of Dominion forces and had enough troops to at least defend borders. Hammerfel was still fighting the Dominion. Skyrim and High Rock were comfortable up in the North, never seeing the war in any shape or form. Morrowind was already more or less ravaged and destroyed even before the war, and it wouldn't have been important to base any decision on sparing it from a fight. (as there's nothing there to defend really)

 

So, that's one province that's actually seeing the war, and is going to see it regardless of whether or not the war ends. Two provinces wrecked (one destroyed before the war, one destroyed during), with one completely void of the force that wrecked it but still with the capacity to defend its own borders, the other totally unimportant to anything. And two provinces that haven't seen any damage and can totally support everyone else if managed correctly.

 

So what was the Emperor sparing exactly? Only Cyrodiil from the utter "horror" of having another enemy soldier step foot in it, even though the Dominion would have been stupid to even order of their own to do so at that point. Any man with the knowledge of what was going on in Tamriel at the time and a fairly decent intelligence would have been able to see that. And its not like you could say it was out of fear of some magical Deus X Machina that the Dominion was holding back, because if the Dominion had that why would they have stopped fighting? If they could take the Empire down after the War of the Red Ring, they would have. They had zero reason not to if they had such an ability. But they didn't have such an ability, which is the only reason the Dominion even gave the Empire's truce a bother. (also didn't help that the Empire was offering everything they demanded of the Empire in the first place). The fact that they couldn't take Hammerfel after 5 years proves that even further, as well as the fact that they couldn't have taken on the rest of the Empire in that time either.

[breakwind]

I don't know where you got the idea that the High King is the final word in Nordic Law, as I thought that the Moot, or council of Jarls were the final word of law.

 

From the Lore:

 

Skyrim's Rule:

An Outsider's View

by Abdul-Mujib Ababneh

But as mighty and influential as each individual Jarl is, Skyrim's true power comes from the strength of its High King. The High King is ruler above all, and is always one of the Jarls, selected by a body called the "Moot" - a specially convened council of all the Jarls, who meet with the express purpose of choosing Skyrim's High King. Or so it is, in theory.

 

The reality, however, is that the High King swears fealty to the Emperor, and as Solitude is the city most directly influenced by Imperial culture and politics, the Jarl of Solitude has served as High King for generations. The Moot, therefore, is more formality and theater than anything else.

 

And if you hate the Thalmor, why in the world would you join with those most subservient to them, most in thrall to them, and who aid and abet Thalmor policy in Skyrim more than any other faction/force?

 

The Empire...

 

 

I suggest you get the 'insiders view' from the court of the Blue Palace. The Moot has the power to choose who is the High King....therefore they are the High Power of Nordic Law. Torygg didn't become king just because of his position as heir...the Moot had to decide for him to become High King. Ask the court wizard. As for choosing the Imperials because I hate the Thalmor....there are plenty of hints throughout the game to suggest that it is in the best interests of the Thalmor that the civil war continue. Logic also dictates that a united Empire would better stand another war than a fragmented one. As for some thinking that the treaty with the Dominion calling for the outlaw of Talos worshipping, being a reason for siding with the Stormcloaks....did the Empire have much choice in the matter?

[Kraeten]

Half of Skyrim won't know how to read either. Do you expect the common rifraff to understand the distinction between the two different Empires? Hell, its doubtful that even the Jarl's and other leaders are that well educated.

 

If so many Nords were as ignorant as you seem to claim, Ulfric should have had little opposition at all from his countrymen.

 

I'm not explaining this again, so I'll just quote from another topic.

 

That's an impressive piece of conjecture, but it would appear you give the provinces more credit than they're due. From the book titled the great war, we have this interesting statement "Despite the warnings of his generals of the Empire's military weakness, Emperor Titus Mede II rejected the ultimatum."

 

That's before the war mind you. When the Empire's armies were still fresh. Now let's fast forward to the end of the war. "The entire remaining Imperial force was gathered in Cyrodiil, exhausted and decimated by the Battle of the Red Ring. Not a single legion had more than half its soldiers fit for duty. Two legions had been effectively annihilated, not counting the loss of the Eighth during the retreat from the Imperial City the previous year."

 

The losses were considerable, and Cyrodiil arguably paid the highest price of all. Had the Dominion continued to send forces like they did to Hammerfell, who is to say there would have been anything left of Cyrodiil to defend? Leyawinn, Anvil, Bruma, and the Imperial City were all sacked. Hammerfell's capital on the other hand, Sentinel, which was also the heart of the province's commerce meanwhile still stood. To put it simply, Hammerfell could afford to continue fighting. Cyrodiil could not.

 

Make no mistake, Cyrodil is the key to a victory over Tamriel too. Strategically, if you control Cyrodiil you have the perfect territory with which to stage the invasion of the rest of the provinces.

Edited June 13, 2012 by Kraeten

[imperistan]

If so many Nords were as ignorant as you seem to claim, Ulfric should have had little opposition at all from his countrymen.

 

Yes, because there totally isn't an opposite power fighting to convince the same population of their cause as hard as Ulfric is trying to convince them of his. Because this is a totally hypothetical discussion based around the idea of there being two opposing powers rather than just the one and some insignificant other.

 

That's an impressive piece of conjecture, but it would appear you give the provinces more credit than they're due. From the book titled the great war, we have this interesting statement "Despite the warnings of his generals of the Empire's military weakness, Emperor Titus Mede II rejected the ultimatum."

 

Problem is, there's massive amounts of evidence to support what I laid out. And need I mention the obviousness of common sense?

 

And despite that warning, the Empire still managed to completely destroy the Dominions army in Cyrodiil (granted, at a great cost to the Legions there, but thats totally beside the point) and then for the next 5 years a fraction of a single Legion (to compare, the army that took back the Imperial City was composed of several legions.) stalemated what the Dominion had left. That's complete and total fact, from that very book you just quoted. Go a little further and look at the state of the provinces at the time (which there is also evidence for, scattered across the game), and it becomes clear that the Empire had far more at its disposal than the Dominion did.

 

The losses were considerable, and Cyrodiil arguably paid the highest price of all. Had the Dominion continued to send forces like they did to Hammerfell, who is to say there would have been anything left of Cyrodiil to defend? Leyawinn, Anvil, Bruma, and the Imperial City were all sacked. Hammerfell's capital on the other hand, Sentinel, which was also the heart of the province's commerce meanwhile still stood. To put it simply, Hammerfell could afford to continue fighting. Cyrodiil could not.

 

As I've already said, the Dominion could only just barely maintain a war with Hammerfel, a single province without a proper army. How do you think they'd do if they had to split forces between two provinces? Do you honestly believe they'd even try after the loss they sustained in Cyrodiil?

 

Make no mistake, Cyrodil is the key to a victory over Tamriel too. Strategically, if you control Cyrodiil you have the perfect territory with which to stage the invasion of the rest of the provinces.

 

When you're in a position to invade another province may be, but not when you can barely hold on to half of a province. Even if Cyrodiil fell, it would have helped the Dominion much. Their performance in Hammerfel (and the fact that they'd have to build an entirely new invasion force to replace the old one, that was rediculously reinforced mind you) shows they wouldn't have been able to hold it (such a central location with such an easy to traverse terrain would be a nightmare for an invading force to defend unless you have overwhelming forces, which the Dominion didn't have), very much less put it to much use.

[Kraeten]

Yes, because there totally isn't an opposite power fighting to convince the same population of their cause as hard as Ulfric is trying to convince them of his. Because this is a totally hypothetical discussion based around the idea of there being two opposing powers rather than just the one and some insignificant other.

 

A fair enough response, point taken.

 

Problem is, there's massive amounts of evidence to support what I laid out. And need I mention the obviousness of common sense?

 

I know where you get the evidence to use your argument, but its the conclusion I'm hesitant to consider true. As for common sense, well that seems to vary from person to person. I'm sure someone has mentioned in the last few pages that its only "common sense" that the races of men would stand a better chance united as opposed to fractured. And I suppose I'm reluctant to consider that true as well....considering Tituse Mede II isn't exactly a brilliant leader.

 

That's complete and total fact, from that very book you just quoted. Go a little further and look at the state of the provinces at the time (which there is also evidence for, scattered across the game), and it becomes clear that the Empire had far more at its disposal than the Dominion did.

 

Did the Empire have enough to protect the entire southern border of Cyrodiil however? Watching the sea for Thalmor ships is a bit different than finding enough men to watch the northern borders of Elsweyr and Valenwood in addition to being ready for an invasion by sea.

 

As I've already said, the Dominion could only just barely maintain a war with Hammerfel, a single province without a proper army. How do you think they'd do if they had to split forces between two provinces? Do you honestly believe they'd even try after the loss they sustained in Cyrodiil?

 

Considering the Dominion's maniacal goals there's little they could do that would surprise me.

 

When you're in a position to invade another province may be, but not when you can barely hold on to half of a province. Even if Cyrodiil fell, it would have helped the Dominion much. Their performance in Hammerfel (and the fact that they'd have to build an entirely new invasion force to replace the old one, that was rediculously reinforced mind you) shows they wouldn't have been able to hold it (such a central location with such an easy to traverse terrain would be a nightmare for an invading force to defend unless you have overwhelming forces, which the Dominion didn't have), very much less put it to much use.

 

Another fair point. I think I must concede that the Emperor did indeed have a fair choice to make and it would seem he chose the easier of the two.

Edited June 13, 2012 by Kraeten

[MacSuibhne]

 

 

I suggest you get the 'insiders view' from the court of the Blue Palace. The Moot has the power to choose who is the High King....therefore they are the High Power of Nordic Law. Torygg didn't become king just because of his position as heir...the Moot had to decide for him to become High King. Ask the court wizard. As for choosing the Imperials because I hate the Thalmor....there are plenty of hints throughout the game to suggest that it is in the best interests of the Thalmor that the civil war continue. Logic also dictates that a united Empire would better stand another war than a fragmented one. As for some thinking that the treaty with the Dominion calling for the outlaw of Talos worshipping, being a reason for siding with the Stormcloaks....did the Empire have much choice in the matter?

 

 

Right, let's go on the opinion of people who have a vested interest in portraying Ulfric in the worst light possible. Let's get the opinion of every disgruntled bystander, malcontent and Imperial apologist that can be mustered and dismiss every other source of information...esp. source material. Might as well get the opinion of the drunk outside the Winking Skeever while we're at it....which is OK when there is no other frame of reference but in this and so many instances to ignore or reject the Lore is myopic at best. I understand why there is so little agreement in this discussion.

 

What it comes down to is that Imperial apologists almost universally rely on speculation and hearsay and wishful thinking. And never on what the actual facts, verifiable evidence, observable behaviour, and Lore says.

 

At one point, people start playing a very different game than what was written. And that's OK. What's not OK is to come to a public forum and insist that everyone else play that same game.

 

In the Thalmor dossier on Ulfric StormCloak...sorry for another factual piece of Lore...the Thalmor state unequivocally that "Ulfric's death would have dramatically increased the chance of an Imperial victory and thus harmed our overall position in Skyrim. "

 

Rather than interpret, I will simply restate the obvious--the Thalmor don't want either side to win. In keeping with their racial make-up they are subverting the Empire, esp. in Skyrim. They are actively working to create unrest and disunity and strife. They are provocateurs. If the Rebellion were to simply evaporate overnight, the Thalmor would still be in Cyrodill and Skyrim and throughout the Empire, and nothing...nothing...would change in their operations. They'd still be doing everything in their power to sabotage and vitiate the Empire.

 

The only difference...as all events from the WGC to the Imperial arrest of Ulfric prove...the Empire are "cooperative" agents* of the Thalmor and actively colluding with the AD.

 

If you follow/actually read (for content) these discussions and the posts of Imperistan and if you actually read and look at the Lore--the single most important frame of reference for what happened and what is happening in Skyrim--not only did the Empire have a choice (it was clearly stronger and in a better position militarily to reject Thalmor demands) it had a moral imperative not to sell its people into thralldom.

 

 

* one who is authorized to act for or in the place of another: as a representative, emissary, or official of a government Merriam-Webster Dictionary

Edited June 13, 2012 by MacSuibhne

[breakwind]

Um...MacSuibhne, your quote from the Thalmor dossier only enhances my opinion....that it is in the best interests of the Thalmor that the war continues and Ulfric is not defeated, hence my willingness to take the side of the Imperials. The books? A lot of them are based on myth and conjecture...I was a Nightingale, and yet I read a book from a researcher clearly stating that the order of the Nightingales was a myth. And I have read Imperistans posts...in fact I had read through this thread before my first post. Everyone is entitled to post their opinion and I posted mine. I have played the main quests with 7 characters now, read dozens of books and have formed my opinions based on history and motives. JUst the fact that Delphine immediately accuses the Thalmor of producing the dragon event at Helgen, so freeing Ulfric and prolonging the war explains part of the political climate