Why Ulfric was right to kill the High King

[fraquar]

Except Solitude doesn't have the mass of Elves and Argonians that Windhelm has, so that comparison is pretty flawed. What you see is a few independent entrepreneurs in Solitude, what you see is a huddled mass in Windhelm.

 

Unless another Skyrim city has the masses of refugees that Windhelm is, it's all speculation as to how other cities would handle the situation. My guess is it wouldn't be much better than Windhelm.

 

Windhelm's situation is unique to Skyrim.

Edited June 15, 2012 by fraquar

[Kraeten]

The explanation of how the Empire can rebuild is that the Thalmor can't do anything effective to prevent it? Sorry, I don't buy that for a second.

 

I'm not arguing that that the Thalmor can't do anything effective, I'm simply saying they would ultimately fail in stopping the Empire from mustering an army.

 

Controlling a defeated enemy does not take as many troops as it took to defeat him in the first place.

 

Assuming the Empire was actually defeated, despite wiping out the main Dominion army during the Battle of the Red Ring.

 

Does that sound like the Thalmor fear the nullification of the treaty?

 

That sounds like typical Almderi arrogance.

 

The Emperor believes it as well, or he wouldn't have signed the Concordat in the first place.

 

Speculation.

 

The Thalmor have had decades now to spread their spies throughout Cyrodiil. In addition, they have surely built a network of informants, collaborators, and assassins. Would they do any less of this in Cyrodiil than we know they have done in Skyrim?

 

The Thalmor want the civil war to go on indefinitely, to weaken Skyrim and and the Empire. Fact. When Tullius had Ulfric in Helgen, ready to cut off his head where was the infamous Thalmor influence? Hm, well there were those three observing agents...but..what did they do? Nothing. It took a dragon to stop the Empire from taking Ulfric's head.

 

 

Meanwhile the Empire would have no equivalent intelligence on the AD, unless you think the new Penitus Oculatus is up to the same standards of espionage and covert operations that the Blades had developed over centuries.

 

Considering how the Blades were so easily hunted down, maybe it was time for a new organization anyway. The remaining blades certainly don't seem to understand their duties.

 

"You're sworn to defend and serve the dragonborn huh? And you're telling me I have to go kill one of my favorite characters for a crime he's spent centuries atoning for, if I want to continue to have your support? Hmmm, how about you two go take a hike?"

Edited June 16, 2012 by Kraeten

[fraquar]

The Thalmor were ready to act, but didn't have to because of the Dragon. At least if we believe their dossier.

[Kraeten]

The Thalmor were ready to act, but didn't have to because of the Dragon. At least if we believe their dossier.

 

If the Thalmor were in fact ready to act, then it strikes me as very peculiar they didn't stop Tullius before he dragged Ulfric to stand before the men waiting to be executed. Or before Tullius made his speech for that matter.

[fraquar]

Actually, you want Ulfric to watch his men getting beheaded. Thats the whole point. The question is would Tullius have even seen a Thalmor blind-side even coming?

[Kraeten]

The question is would Tullius have even seen a Thalmor blind-side even coming?

 

Tullius had Ulfric right where he wanted him, he was ready to end the rebellion. The question should be, would Tullius have even listened to them? The Thalmor were guests in an Imperial Fort after all. They weren't exactly in a position to be making demands.

[MacSuibhne]

 

I'd sooner believe a citizen of Windhelm, before using an old document as proof that the Dunmer aren't taxed. I'm especially inclined to be skeptical, considering Ulfric's statement "Damn the Jarls, and damn the moot!"

 

FTFY...

 

Why am I not surprised? Good old rumour and gossip. Trumps facts every time.

 

He only cares for Nord traditions so long as they benefit his cause.

 

No real evidence of this either.

 

 

Or maybe, some people are just just comparing Ulfric's Windhelm to the Imperial's Solitude. Hm, argonians elves and nords all treated equally....

 

Maybe so but it's apples and oranges and hardly relevant to either the topic or the current discussion.

 

 

Oh how cute, first he gets on his soap box to condemn people for disrespecting a fictional character and now he's decided to slander the REAL people who support the Occupy movement. Way to show you're the more intelligent and moral person there. I especially like how you stereotype the movement too, that's really thoughtful.

 

 

Cute is hardly the word that anyone in their right mind would apply to a broke down old man of 66 winters.

 

As for the Occupy movement, looks like I struck a nerve there but for me it was just a convenient way to point to the cultural and social divide that seems to creep into every conversation on any subject these days.

 

I suspect that despite the disclaimer, the reference to George Wallace in a discussion about racism is hardly coincidence. It's another example of racism by association. Ulfric never supports any expression of racism, Wallace never overtly says "go get them"; ipso facto they must be the same. By that reckoning Mother Theresa=George Wallace=Ulfric Stormcloak.

 

Now, I don't care what you say...that's cute!

 

I'm not more intelligent than anyone here...in point of fact I admire and look up to Imperistan and BrettM. But it's like the old story of the bear...you don't have to outrun the bear you just have to outrun your buddy.

 

But yes, I think I do have a certain set of moral standards that do not vary depending on whose ox is being gored or what the situation is or whether it is cool and politically correct to take a stand or not.

Edited June 15, 2012 by MacSuibhne

[Daggdag]

 

I'd sooner believe a citizen of Windhelm, before using an old document as proof that the Dunmer aren't taxed. I'm especially inclined to be skeptical, considering Ulfric's statement "Damn the Jarls, and damn the moot!"

 

FTFY...

 

Why am I not surprised? Good old rumour and gossip. Trumps facts every time.

 

He only cares for Nord traditions so long as they benefit his cause.

 

No real evidence of this either.

 

 

Or maybe, some people are just just comparing Ulfric's Windhelm to the Imperial's Solitude. Hm, argonians elves and nords all treated equally....

 

Maybe so but it's apples and oranges and hardly relevant to either the topic or the current discussion.

 

 

Oh how cute, first he gets on his soap box to condemn people for disrespecting a fictional character and now he's decided to slander the REAL people who support the Occupy movement. Way to show you're the more intelligent and moral person there. I especially like how you stereotype the movement too, that's really thoughtful.

 

 

Cute is hardly the word that anyone in their right mind would apply to a broke down old man of 66 winters.

 

As for the Occupy movement, looks like I struck a nerve there but for me it was just a convenient way to point to the cultural and social divide that seems to creep into every conversation on any subject these days.

 

I suspect that despite the disclaimer, the reference to George Wallace in a discussion about racism is hardly coincidence. It's another example of racism by association. Ulfric never supports any expression of racism, Wallace never overtly says "go get them"; ipso facto they must be the same. By that reckoning Mother Theresa=George Wallace=Ulfric Stormcloak.

 

Now, I don't care what you say...that's cute!

 

I'm not more intelligent than anyone here...in point of fact I admire and look up to Imperistan and BrettM. But it's like the old story of the bear...you don't have to outrun the bear you just have to outrun your buddy.

 

But yes, I think I do have a certain set of moral standards that do not vary depending on whose ox is being gored or what the situation is or whether it is cool and politically correct to take a stand or not.

 

It is relevant. Part of what would justify Ulfric's challenging the HIgh King would be his reasons. He felt that he would make a better high king. The fact that he is a biggot and ignores the suffering of anyone who is not Nord proves this to be wrong. I would rather have a flawed system where all are treated equally (Though I would like to have freedom of religion, and allow the worship of Talos) over a system where only certain people are treated fairly and everyone else are second class citizens.

[Kraeten]

Why am I not surprised? Good old rumour and gossip. Trumps facts every time.

 

You have absolutely no proof Ulfric honors the terms that monument was made in tribute to. None what so ever. Meanwhile Viola Giordano, the same woman who sends out pamphlets warning the Windhelm citizens to beware of the butcher, claims Ulfric unfairly taxes the Dunmer.

 

No real evidence of this either.

 

The office of Jarl is just as old as the rest of the Nord customs, as is the practice of calling a Moot. But when such traditions work against his cause, he throws a tantrum "Damn the Jarls, and damn the Moot!"

 

Later, after the Battle of Solitude and after Ulfric makes his pretty speech about only accepting the mantle of High King if he's chosen Galmar confides "It's a forgone conclusion you know."

 

Ulfric replies smugly "Oh, I know."

 

He cared nothing for the right of the Moot to choose its King. Ulfric instead used force to claim the throne, the throne he could not claim by any other means. And after the Battle of Solitude, there was not a single Jarl left who opposed him. When honoring traditions would mean he couldn't use the Voice to do harm, he used it anyway. Even when it wasn't necessary like in the case of killing High King Torygg. You'd have to be blind to not see the pattern here.

 

Cute is hardly the word that anyone in their right mind would apply to a broken down old man of 66 winters.

 

I try not to discriminate by age in discussions like this. Of course if you would prefer, I could instead start using words like "pathetic" to give voice to my contempt.

 

As for the Occupy movement, looks like I struck a nerve there but for me it was just a convenient way to point to the cultural and social divide that seems to creep into every conversation on any subject these days.

 

Your ignorance struck a nerve and the only reason this so called "divide" creeps into discussion is because of people like you.

 

"The Dunmer just expect something for nothing." Actually, what they expect is to be treated with equal respect. The kind of respect they certainly would have as citizens of the Empire. The elf in the market place freely admits she had to work exceptionally hard for her right to sell goods in the market. Do you seriously think a Nord would have such difficulty? The Dunmer may very well be capable of doing more for themselves, but it doesn't help that the circumstances they find themselves in are slanted against their favor.

 

Even if they wanted to leave, they would have to do so with the knowledge that the guards of Windhelm can't be expected to rise to their defense if they're attacked by any of the great number of dangers that can be found on the road. Brunwulf Free-Winter's words on this matter can be trusted, especially when he's willing to pay his own gold to see justice done.

 

But yes, I think I do have a certain set of moral standards that do not vary depending on whose ox is being gored or what the situation is or whether it is cool and politically correct to take a stand or not.

 

I can't tell you how many times I've heard a hypocrite say that. I don't suppose you watch Fox News?

Edited June 16, 2012 by Kraeten

[Archone]

 

I'd sooner believe a citizen of Windhelm, before using an old document as proof that the Dunmer aren't taxed. I'm especially inclined to be skeptical, considering Ulfric's statement "Damn the Jarls, and damn the moot!"

 

FTFY...

 

Why am I not surprised? Good old rumour and gossip. Trumps facts every time.

 

 

Actually, a citizen saying, "we all pay taxes and one particular group of the population pays more taxes" is more likely to be taken seriously as evidence in a court of law than a monument that sounds more like a proclamation of "we will allow these refugees to live with us and not be slaves or force them to sacrifice their religious beliefs." That doesn't mean taxation isn't going to be part of the deal. Taxes are an exchange for enjoying the services of the community. Such as guards to patrol against bandits, and maintaining the roads, and so on.

 

 

Or maybe, some people are just just comparing Ulfric's Windhelm to the Imperial's Solitude. Hm, argonians elves and nords all treated equally....

 

Maybe so but it's apples and oranges and hardly relevant to either the topic or the current discussion.

 

No, that's a pretty good example of where Ulfric is lacking.

 

 

One other point, that I missed regarding real life politics...if you even uttered the word "racism" in the world and culture of Skyrim people would either look at you like you were out of your mind and talking in tongues or they would laugh you back to your alternate universe.

 

Or they would remember the ideals which the Empire came to stand for. Despite the arrogance of many Imperials in past games, there was always a generalized sense of multiculturalism. The lore includes books written by Imperials who went to Elsweyr or Valenwood and learned the ways of the locals, or who learned of the developments in magic or armorcraft by the Altmer or the Orks or Argonians. In Morrowind there was an undeniable conflict for the Imperials, between their need to respect local customs and their distaste for the Dunmer practice of slavery (a practice ultimately abandoned). It's quite telling that in Skyrim the Argonians no longer greet their mammalian neighbors with "the prey approaches. What does it want?"

 

I suspect that despite the disclaimer, the reference to George Wallace in a discussion about racism is hardly coincidence. It's another example of racism by association. Ulfric never supports any expression of racism, Wallace never overtly says "go get them"; ipso facto they must be the same. By that reckoning Mother Theresa=George Wallace=Ulfric Stormcloak.

 

Now you're just throwing out things at random. Mother Theresa openly spoke out against bigotry and intolerance. The secret to her success was that she was willing to tend to anyone in need, regardless of their religious or cultural background; the Indians first started paying attention when they noticed that this Catholic nun was caring for a former Hindu priest of Kali who had contracted leprosy. By contrast, Wallace was acknowledged by... everyone, as being a supporter of the Klan and their ilk. He helped them by providing excuses and justification for their depredations, being their public mouthpiece. Your comparism is pathetically absurd.

 

 

 

But yes, I think I do have a certain set of moral standards that do not vary depending on whose ox is being gored or what the situation is or whether it is cool and politically correct to take a stand or not.

 

So far your standards seem to consist of "anyone who disagrees with me needs to be insulted and mocked." You have yet to provide one link, one example, one factual anecdote. You have challenged the evidence provided by others (while they proceeded to defend their evidence), but failed to provide any of your own. I repeat: can you provide any examples of Ulfric openly renouncing the bigotry of his comrades, or of him openly declaring Skyrim to be a haven for all regardless of their racial origins?

Edited June 15, 2012 by Archone