Why Ulfric was right to kill the High King

[Kraeten]

OK...I'll be your huckleberry.

 

Crony: a close friend especially of long standing...Merriam-Webster Dictionary. Do you feel mocked now?

 

Oh please. There isn't a close knit friendship among pro imperial debaters and you know it. You used the word crony in the same spirit as the word lackey or toady.

 

I suspect you're just looking for someone to openly mock you so that you can vent.

 

Well allow me to ease your suspicion, I'm mocking you because you felt compelled to take this debate personally and insult people who disrespected a fictional character. I'm also mocking some of the others who take your side, because they think some well put together speculation is the equivalent of absolute truth.

 

Frankly, I just hate to see your posts. It means that I have to read through a lot of disjointed, irrational and irrelevant blather.

 

Well I'd say I take your criticism seriously, but who am I kidding? My posts are dandy. You're just attacking the quality of my posts because you're apparently unable to defend yourself otherwise.

 

Wrap a towel around your head....

 

Tell you what, maybe I'll take that under advisement if you knock it off with the attitude. It doesn't help the thread, and it sure as hell doesn't help your arguments. And now to interrupt our regular broadcast with some sorely needed humor. *inserts image*

 

http://i804.photobucket.com/albums/yy327/Adamant19/what_have_the_imperials_ever_done_by_skunkworker-d4lr0ebcopy.jpg

Edited June 16, 2012 by Kraeten

[BrettM]

Revyn Sadri, the Dunmer who runs Sadri's Used Wares, gives you a ring belonging to Viola Giordano and asks you to sneak it back into her house. If you give it directly to Viola instead, she says that she's going to report Revyn to the Jarl and get his taxes doubled, or even tripled. That doesn't sound like much of a threat unless he actually PAYS taxes to begin with.

 

Other than that, the only evidence I know of regarding taxes is that Windhelm has charged a tax on an inheritence my Dunmer character received from a deceased citizen of Eastmarch.

 

Is it possible that the "no tithe" bit simply means that Dunmer refugees don't have to hand over part of whatever wealth they managed to bring with them into Skyrim just to get permission to stay? Possibly foreigners who wish to settle in Skyrim are normally expected to pay a fee to the hold where they want to establish residence. Many refugees, however, might have escaped Morrowind with little more than the clothes on their back, so the jarls were being magnanimous in waiving the customary payment.

[Deleted4666244User]

i think really Ulfric had no reason to kill Torygg. Talos worship still exists in the empire-skyrim. heck A priest in whiterun is openly preaching and you do not see people telling him to quiet down or get arrested. Since no one in Skyrim seems to care about Talos worship being banned i think i have no real reason to side with Ulfric or think that Ulfric did the right thing in killing the high king.

[MacSuibhne]

Revyn Sadri, the Dunmer who runs Sadri's Used Wares, gives you a ring belonging to Viola Giordano and asks you to sneak it back into her house. If you give it directly to Viola instead, she says that she's going to report Revyn to the Jarl and get his taxes doubled, or even tripled. That doesn't sound like much of a threat unless he actually PAYS taxes to begin with.

 

Other than that, the only evidence I know of regarding taxes is that Windhelm has charged a tax on an inheritence my Dunmer character received from a deceased citizen of Eastmarch.

 

Is it possible that the "no tithe" bit simply means that Dunmer refugees don't have to hand over part of whatever wealth they managed to bring with them into Skyrim just to get permission to stay? Possibly foreigners who wish to settle in Skyrim are normally expected to pay a fee to the hold where they want to establish residence. Many refugees, however, might have escaped Morrowind with little more than the clothes on their back, so the jarls were being magnanimous in waiving the customary payment.

 

That does suggest that merchants pay taxes...but I stipulated that in the beginning. I still haven't heard where and from whom the quote that Archone cites is to be found.

 

The rest is is "might've in light of"...it's possible but still speculation.

 

Just as the paying of taxes by the Dunmer is within the realm of possibility (as almost anything is), but it doesn't make Ulfric a racist esp. since Ulfric simply inherited the economy and the Grey Quarter (as will Brunwuff if the Empire wins) nor does it bear on whether he was right to kill Torygg.

Edited June 17, 2012 by MacSuibhne

[Kraeten]

i think really Ulfric had no reason to kill Torygg. Talos worship still exists in the empire-skyrim. heck A priest in whiterun is openly preaching and you do not see people telling him to quiet down or get arrested. Since no one in Skyrim seems to care about Talos worship being banned i think i have no real reason to side with Ulfric or think that Ulfric did the right thing in killing the high king.

 

I almost wish the Thalmor would grab that preacher. Hearing him raving every time I go through the town square gets old very fast. :tongue:

 

Seriously though, that's a good argument you've made.

[MacSuibhne]

i think really Ulfric had no reason to kill Torygg. Talos worship still exists in the empire-skyrim. heck A priest in whiterun is openly preaching and you do not see people telling him to quiet down or get arrested. Since no one in Skyrim seems to care about Talos worship being banned i think i have no real reason to side with Ulfric or think that Ulfric did the right thing in killing the high king.

 

 

Who are the many Thalmor patrols leading away to torture and behead? Are they Imperial citizens? Citizens of Skyrim? Or just a bunch of nobodies who won't be missed, trash that probably should've been eliminated anyway, and inconsequential riff-raff who are necessary sacrifices to appease the Empire's masters?

[Archone]

Wow. I spent a few days away from this post (among other things, actually playing Skyrim) and I peek back in...and I see MacSuibhne is still at it...

 

That does suggest that merchants pay taxes...but I stipulated that in the beginning. I still haven't heard where and from whom the quote that Archone cites is to be found.

 

Which quote are you referring to?

 

Crony: a close friend especially of long standing...Merriam-Webster Dictionary

 

One: I've never met the pro Imperial folks before. I started posting on this forum a few days ago, when I went looking for assistance with a bug (caused by a mod conflicting with the recent upgrade; thanks again to those who helped). Two: your own definition provides me with furhter support for my side. Right now, as in "in between moments spent typing up this post," I am casting Courage spells on Jorlief while waiting for daylight so I can sell the loot that's overburdening my character. And I'm listening to Galmar assuring Ulfric that what's needed is to murder everyone who doesn't agree with them. "Let them die with their false kings!" "Anyone who isn't with us is against us!" He's literally ready to murder anyone in Skyrim who doesn't want to help them fight the Imperials, and Ulfric certainly isn't dismissing his advice.

 

While I've been wandering around Windhelm harvesting alchemy reagents and slaying a dragon and recovering a certain... wedding ring... *blushes* ...I've been talking to the people. Including the ones at Brandy-Mug Farm, and Kynesgrove. I've been listening to the farmers, and to the Dunmer in the Grey Quarter who state outright that they are forbidden from dwelling anywhere else. I've listened to the Nords living in Windhelm spouting hatred against Dunmer. And I repeat: if Ulfric's the Jarl, then he's in charge. That makes him responsible for what his people do. His words not only dictate policy, but also guide the actions of his followers. If he were to denounce the racism of those within his hold, then they would say, "we shouldn't do this. Ulfric wouldn't like it." And yet he has never said any such thing.

 

Just as the paying of taxes by the Dunmer is within the realm of possibility

 

No, the paying of taxes by the Dunmer is both established by the statements of multiple NPCs, as well as by basic economic principles. The blacksmith is hammering as many shields and swords and breastplates as he can, swearing by Shorl's bones that he just might have to hammer hundreds of them if need be. That costs money ,to buy that many sets of arms. The guards certainly need to be paid. And they like to eat, as do the folks in the castle. That wizard who can train you in destruction magic certainly isn't working as the court mage for free. So merchants get taxed. So do the farmers. So does anyone who has money that the government can borrow. Even if Ulfric's not taxing income (not that unrealistic; feudalism combined taxing the peasant income - a portion of their harvest - with their labor - requiring them to work the noble's fields as well. Thankfully the Empire doesn't have feudalism... anymore. One of the things the Septims managed to do for Tamriel), he's still going to be doing everything he can to raise money for the war effort.

 

but it doesn't make Ulfric a racist esp. since Ulfric simply inherited the economy and the Grey Quarter

 

Ulfric could easily allow the Dunmer to purchase homes within the rest of Whitehelm. And not tax them as highly as the rest of his people. He's the Jarl. He is in charge. He has the authority and the responsibility. The authority to change things, as well as the responsibility for whatever happens.

 

Who are the many Thalmor patrols leading away to torture and behead? Are they Imperial citizens? Citizens of Skyrim?

 

This would be why I say that both sides are nuanced and possessed of flaws as well as virtues. I certainly enjoy making a point of annoying the Thalmor patrols into attacking me at every opportunity, just so I can kill them. I know that no matter what city I enter, Whitehelm or Solitude, anyone I sell the elven armor to is going to smile and wink and say, "anyone asks, I'll tell them you simply found it somewhere." I've never said that Ulfric didn't have good reason to be annoyed about things, merely that he's not a pure paladin of righteousness.

 

Now, I repeat my challenge. I and others have provided examples, evidence, facts, even links to other websites. Can you provide even one example of Ulfric openly renouncing or criticizing the racism shown by his followers, subjects, and/or friends?

[fraquar]

There ought to be some achievement award for selling 50/100 complete sets of Elven Light Armor/Thalmor gear. Pretty sure everyone would agree on that.

 

Actually, if you believe any of the texts in the game they say that Ulfric is actually less tolerant than his father was of the wealthy families in Skyrim causing all the ruckus with the Dunmer. Less tolerant is relative, but it does mean things could, and have been worse.

 

Before I condemn Ulfric for the Dunmer situation I want to see how it's handled elsewhere on the scale that it is in Windhelm. Closest to Windhelm is Riften and they are herded in the Bunkhouse. Everywhere else you are looking at a couple independent entrepreneurs, not a whole clan infiltrating a city proper. Seriously, it's quite possible the numbers of Dunmer/Argonians would equal the numbers of Nords in Windhelm - if the numbers are just representative figures.

[MacSuibhne]

 

Which quote are you referring to?

 

"we all pay taxes and one particular group of the population pays more taxes" Or maybe that's just another one of those imagined dialogues that have come to dominate the Imperial mindset.

 

He's literally ready to murder anyone in Skyrim who doesn't want to help them fight the Imperials, and Ulfric certainly isn't dismissing his advice.

 

That's what war is about. It isn't tiddley-winks.

 

Where is the racism in Galmor's words?

 

[What a dark world it must be where innocent words like "crony"...used innocently....take on such threatening overtones that even the correct definition only brings on more paranoia. Where everyone is a racist (or some other equally dismissive pejorative) if they aren't agreeing with you (generic). Or behaving as you think they should. Or on the same evangelic mission to bring enlightenment to the masses...so noble. :wub: ]

 

Galmor is a nationalist. That is not the same as racism. My character is a Redguard. When I challenge Galmor as to whether my race an issue in joining the Stormcloaks he dismisses the whole idea as if it were the laboured product of some naive teenage fantasy...as well he should! It's an apt metaphor.

 

Ulfric could easily allow the Dunmer to purchase homes within the rest of Whitehelm.

Where? Maybe they could buy property outside of Windhelm like several other Dunmer have.

 

And not tax them as highly as the rest of his people.

 

By what agonized definition is that fair?

 

He's the Jarl. He is in charge. He has the authority and the responsibility. The authority to change things, as well as the responsibility for whatever happens.

 

I see, Ulfric is responsible for all the sins of his father's fathers, and all the sins of omission that can be leveled against him by people who are not happy with their own lives; haven't, in 150 years, made any move to change them (the Grey Quarter), and apparently never will be happy about anything.

 

But Torygg, Tullius, Titus and the Thalmor are not responsible for any of their actions--Titus for craven capitulation and betrayal; Tullius for racism against Nords; Torygg for stupidity (not just ignorance--stupidity), and betrayal; and the Thalmor for their genocidal racism and arrogance.

 

You (generic) can't have it both ways, no matter how much you'd like to.

 

I certainly enjoy making a point of annoying the Thalmor patrols into attacking me at every opportunity, just so I can kill them.

 

How righteous! But in fact, it's a drop in the bucket and I suspect more effective at assuaging a sense of guilt than actually bringing justice to Skyrim. Whether that's by conscious intent or just the unwitting result, is neither here nor there. If racism by association is good enough to brand Ulfric, the charge of collusion by association...by omission, by inaction, by apology...is equally valid.

 

If you (generic) can look the other way...policy-wise...or find an excuse/rationale to accept the Thalmor patrols, you're complicit.

 

"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both." Benjamin Franklin

 

But I've learned my lesson:

 

Cite one law, one decree, one writ, one statute, one openly expressed opinion...that Ulfric or the Stormcloaks express or directly support...that persecutes or harasses the Dunmer or the Argonians.

 

The most xenophobic and racist faction in Skyrim is the Thalmor. The Empire actively "cooperates" with the Thalmor; it aids and abets Thalmor activities against Skyrim citizens. Or looks the other way...which functionally is the same thing.

 

The Khajits are not allowed in any city in Skyrim, Imperial or otherwise.

 

The grey quarter in Windhelm is 150 years old. It is not Ulfric's doing. He "inherited the economy".

 

The Lore says the Dunmer are "clannish" and "distrustful" of others.

 

Are there racist in Skyrim? Yes, there are. Not all of them are Stormcloaks.

 

Are there racists in the Stormcloaks? Yes, there are. But, objectively (if such a concept can be contemplated even for a little while) Ulfric is not among them.

 

Whichever side you choose, you will be among racists... and esp. as an Imperial, cooperating with Skyrim's most racist people....furthering their racist agenda.

 

So...if it's guilt by association, no matter which side the Dragonborn chooses it's racist.

Edited June 18, 2012 by MacSuibhne

[Daggdag]

There ought to be some achievement award for selling 50/100 complete sets of Elven Light Armor/Thalmor gear. Pretty sure everyone would agree on that.

 

Actually, if you believe any of the texts in the game they say that Ulfric is actually less tolerant than his father was of the wealthy families in Skyrim causing all the ruckus with the Dunmer. Less tolerant is relative, but it does mean things could, and have been worse.

 

Before I condemn Ulfric for the Dunmer situation I want to see how it's handled elsewhere on the scale that it is in Windhelm. Closest to Windhelm is Riften and they are herded in the Bunkhouse. Everywhere else you are looking at a couple independent entrepreneurs, not a whole clan infiltrating a city proper. Seriously, it's quite possible the numbers of Dunmer/Argonians would equal the numbers of Nords in Windhelm - if the numbers are just representative figures.

 

Argonians are not allowed inside Windhelm. They are forced to live in a single small building on the docks. Dunmer may have around the same number as the nords in the city, but they are still banned from living outside the grey quarter, which is a very small area for that many people, and have little or no protection from the city guards.

 

 

As for Riften....They support the Stormcloaks, so I would assume some of it's leaders share Ulfric's view on non-nords. So it, like Windhelm would be a haven for biggots and it makes since for them to treat non-nords like second class citizens.

Edited June 18, 2012 by Daggdag