Why Ulfric was right to kill the High King

[MacSuibhne]

As far as I'm concerned, it's the message not the manner--always a clue that someone doesn't want to deal with the issues.

 

This so very very hard. Can't imagine how much it pisses me off to see people denounce me purely because I don't wrap my posts in a bubble of a "good" attitude.

 

 

I'm with you on that one...I may not be the sharpest knife in the drawer but I have made a "career" using words and understanding what they mean. I am not very fond of what I call "weasel words."

 

And while I'm at it...I absolutely detest the sophomoric impulse to recklessly use words like "racist" esp. when they are inappropriate and cannot be substantiated. It really makes me angry---it's slander and nothing short. It's trial by gossip and innuendo. And, more importantly, it diminishes the reality.

 

Part of the problem there is that people who indulge in that kind of thing always remind me of the old saying "It's like wrestling with a pig...you both get dirty but the pig likes it."

 

People wouldn't make those kinds of charges if they didn't have an agenda.

Edited June 22, 2012 by MacSuibhne

[Calamachus]

Funny how this topic tends to generate both a lot of trolling and a lot of genuinely intelligent discussion.

 

"Rebel" is just a concise term for 'tool of the would-be regime'. The Stormcloaks as an organization seem to be made up people with a genuine complaint. Their religion is not only being oppressed but is being violently oppressed by a foreign power with the complicit permission of the government that as members of the Empire they should expect to protect them. There is little doubt that they existed with these same complaints well before Ulfric came along. Ulfric however has taken advantage of the situation to move his own agenda forward. There is also little reason to believe that Ulfric has a sincere attachment to the cause. It doesn't seem unreasonable that if the tactically insignificant but socially flamable caveat in the White Gold Concordat about Talos Worship hadn't been there he would have rallied people around fighting the Forsworn, or helping the Redguards, or even just nationalism. Ulfric wasn't right to kill the High King because his justification was just a lust for personal power. This was just a convenient excuse.

 

The Stormcloaks are an example of a reasonable objection being used as a tool by a charismatic and amoral bastard to further his own ends, which makes the whole movement and its success or failure sullied. It's an incredibly realistic situation all in all and while I can't say I find the civil war an enjoyable part of Skyrim to RP through again and again (I've got over 600 hours into Skyrim but have only played the civil war once for each side) I admit I appreciate what it does for the overall story. It just seems like there are some reasonable 3rd options (Dragonborn decides to be Talos 2.0 anyone) that would be enjoyable to include.

 

The Empires failure is not about the Aldmeri Dominion it's a failure to care. It's that they don't take the Stormcloaks seriously or really care about the civil war at all. Tullius nearly wins with just the troops he has and points out that the Empire has more forces, possibly enough to shut the whole thing down quickly but just doesn't care enough to send them. It's not that they don't care about killing the AD. It's that it's ALL they care about. Their feudal obligations to the Nords as members of the Empire just don't matter now. They did once, clearly, but it feels a lot like the sacking of the Imperial City changed that. The Imperial City hadn't been sacked in a long time. For all the Nord talk about Talos and their ancient history, the Imperial City hadn't been actually sacked since about 3,000 years before Tiber Septim was even born. That was when humans took it from the Ayleids. You can see where a lot is made of just what a social impact the sacking of the Imperial City had on the Imperials.

 

The White Gold Concordat doesn't strike me as being about surrender, it struck me as being about buying time to gear up for revenge. The inevitable war with the AD seems to consume the Imperials, everything else is secondary. At its core its an idea that is actually pretty Nord. Bloody revenge for an insult that can never been forgiven. It's not that they don't see what's going on in Skyrim. They seem to see very well; they know Ulfric is a power-hungry usurper who's playing on the WGC to carry him to power in Skyrim. Tullius seems to see all of this. He just doesn't care. It's not that the Empire doesn't care about the Aldmeri Dominion, quite the opposite. The problem is that it's all they care about. Like a general planning an all or nothing campaign they seem willing to sacrifice individuals and short-term losses in the hopes of a long term victory. The loss Hammerfell turned into a poison pill for the elves and it wouldn't surprise me if Cyrodiil was doing everything it could to make Vallenwood, Blackmarsh and Elswyr as much trouble for the AD as Skyrim is for the Empire. These are places that can be won back in time, at least in theory.

 

Again, a terribly realistic and believable scenario. A government and culture that go an almost irreparable wound to their pride that they're willing to do just about anything to pay back. Caught up with their own need for vengeance and likely a bit of self-pity (so what if you can't worship your god locally; we got sacked and pillaged for a whole freaking year! Cry me a river snowback) they don't have a lot of empathy for anyone else.

 

A good storyline for the sake of the story itself. Just not quite as enjoyable to RP given your inability to wright any of the obvious wrongs. Then again, if you could fix what was wrong it wouldn't be much of a story, would it?

[Archone]

 

 

My analogy would be this:

 

Donald Trump is a fool who says that Obama's birth certificate is a fake...

 

That's a very good point, Sukeban. However, that implies that Ulfric is being... well, a weasel. He's politicking; he's ready to compromise doing the right thing in order to maintain the support of his more radical followers. And that's assuming he doesn't agree with them.

 

My current character (though it's been a few days since I played, so I haven't progressed much since the last time) has been following the Legion path. So far I've had Elisif point out that her husband hero-worshipped Ulfric and would have joined Ulfric had the guy shown up to talk instead of fight; Tullius has begun to grudgingly pay more respect to the local culture, but has never hesitated to emphasize his loyalty is to the empire - and to all its citizens (which means I just went to Whiterun to give the Jarl aid from the Legion against the imminent attack by the Stormcloaks), and have wandered around the city where the Argonians are indeed allowed to be inside the city walls, where Altmer (not Thalmer, mind. Altmer. The first people the Thalmer conquered were their own) live in peace with the Nords, as do Bretons, Imperials, and even a Redguard or two. And there's the fact that the Thalmer secret documents claim that Ulfric is actually a sleeper agent working to advance THEIR interests, by undermining the Empire. Though he may very well be unaware of it; for that matter, it may simply be the Thalmer claiming credit for everything, in a

"Can't Argue With Elves"

sense. (if you check that page, try the "Screw You Elves" link. It directly references Skyrim and the legal punishment for killing a Thalmer in cold blood. "Now, go to the nearest guard to pay the fine for littering." :P )

 

I repeat: I'm not saying that Ulfric's not justified in his grievances. We've got two sides that both make excellent sense... and when I make my NEXT playthrough, I'm going to try something that a friend told me about. Apparently I can ignore the civil war entirely and focus on the main storyline... and when I get far enough, the civil war missions become locked because you get to go make peace between BOTH sides. I'm curious to see how that will turn out. It'll be interesting; most of the leaders on each side harbor great respect for leaders on the other side.

[sukeban]

@Calamachus

 

Much sense in your words, for sure.

 

I would just posit that it isn't Skyrim's responsibility to be Danny Glover to the Empire's Mel Gibson in terms of realizing their revenge in Lethal Weapon TES. Nothing is stopping the kingdoms of men from uniting as separate political entities to ravage the Thalmor. Skyrim being a province of the Empire is not a precondition for a successful military campaign against the Thalmor. Given the psychological import of nationalism, allowing free men to fight for their own homelands in a common cause seems the more potent method of defeating the Thalmor, taking RL history as a reference.

 

Conscripted troops just don't put up the same quality of fight as free men fighting for their homelands. That the great historical empires have crumbled is testament to this fact.

 

As an aside, I suppose I just don't see the institution of empire as being a desirable template for political organization, as by definition it presupposes the primacy of the original imperial peoples over all of their conquered territories. The Empire, even before the Oblivion Crisis, would have been like a dictatorial, dystopic United Nations, with one home province calling the shots for literally ever other province of Tamriel. Such an outcome is unnatural in the real world, and, I suppose, I find it unnatural even in a fictional world as well.

[Calamachus]

@sukeban

 

The Empire was a product of the Nords originally, Tiber Septim was Talos and used cunning tactics, ruthless politics and an ancient Dwemer version of SDF1 called Numedium to conquer every other province. The Imperials more or less rule the empire because they had the organizational skills to do it, not because they conquered it. The Empire was in concept a united force and did well at it. The original line of Kings traces their lineage back to Talos of Atmora. After his death the next emperor was Ocato, an Altmer and a political moderate. The presence of an Imperial on the throne with the Mede line is a recent thing.

 

As to nationalism I admit I don't agree. The Legions of the Empire were never conscripts that I can find a reference to. The Nords served willingly and effectively in the war both against the Aldmeri Dominion and through out the Empires history. A division of the empire into smaller provinces each with their own military reduces the total collective force - this is why larger nations (comprised of smaller states in some form or another) field larger armies - you have a larger unified base for food and resource production which allows you to support more people in your army as you need less total people growing food, baking bread and crafting goods. It also allows for better coordination as instead of several armies of varying training, skill and focus you have a single large, powerful and coherent force.

 

The actual core of the problem IS nationalism. Instead of the Imperials and the Nords focusing on the good of the Empire and defeating the Aldmeri Dominion, each has started identifying themselves separately instead of as a greater whole. Each province focused on what was in their own best interests right now instead of what's in the best interests of the whole. The fanatics in the Aldmeri Dominion took advantage of this weakness and attacked. The problem though can be traced back to the Imperials focusing on who gets to wear the pointy hat and what was best for Cyrodiil, not what was best for the Empire. This however represents a tiny, recent little slice of this history of the Empire. When everyone stays focused on the good of the larger whole instead of their own back yard things tend to work out. Hence why Ulfrics power-grab is so self-destructive, just like the Empire (at this point it's better to say Cyrodiils) willingness to sacrifice unity for a shot at vengeance.

[djinx187]

Honestly this whole thing just stinks. Torygg is young for high king and the moot offical made him after his father died.. I mean if he really was that young under 30 years old that means Ulfric waited until his father died so he could just push for power because he has no kids. The moot comes if the high king dies and there are no direct heirs and if the high king does something that is taboo to the traditions of skyrim(aka refusing to the challenge). Either way it was a win win for Ulfric. He kills the king the moot happens if he refuses the moot happens. He just had to do it before Torygg had children because he would have gotten away with killing the High King twice. It's funny I just realized Torygg was young little more then a boy(as a bunch of npc's say) which would have put him close to a child or not born at all when Ulfric was taken prisoner before posting. Torygg would have to be at least 25 to even be alive when Ulfric got captured which I could see making him just a boy maybe even early 30's. I mean if Ulfric really gave a crap about the Empire and the whole Talos thing wouldn't of he done something when it happened instead of 25 years? I mean a lot of you say that the Empire should not wait to attack the thalmor why did Ulfric wait so long to other then to try to seize power for himself? It's the only thing I can think of that makes sense as to why Ulfric decided to wait so long to do something. If he tried it with Torygg's father and there was debate of him using his Thu'um during the duel Torygg would have became High King because his dad would have course be dead but since Torygg has no children regardless of how legitimate the duel was Ulfric would still have a shot of becoming High King and of course put skyrim in to the state of civil war is if wasn't a legit duel.

 

Kinda wish I knew how old Torygg was just to see if it could hold up.

 

At least when hammerfell withdrew from the Empire and they attacked the people who were causing the problems... the Thalmor not the Empire which is why I agree with what they did and not with what Ulfric is doing.

 

Why aren't people on Ulfric's back about him not starting his rebellion after 25 years anyway? I mean the Empire is getting attacked for waitng at least 30 years to do something I'm thinking Stormcloaks are just as bad at waiting as the Empire now that I think about.

[Kraeten]

The idea that the duel was fair stinks to me. Ulfric forced Torygg into a corner with only two ways to go.

 

1. Refuse the challenge, thereby dishonoring himself and I believe forcing the Moot to be convened to choose a new High King (Let's not forget Nords love their honor, so the dishonoring himself part is a pretty big deal for his people.)

or

2. Fight against a man who is his superior in every martial respect. Sounds fair right? :rolleyes:

 

And frankly, I don't buy Ulfric's justification for killing him either. "How can he protect Skyrim when he can't even protect himself?"

The role of High King doesn't require Torygg to be a great warrior. It's an administration role for crying out loud. All he need be is chosen by the Moot. Which he was. Being an excellent fighter doesn't factor into it at all. Let's be realistic here too, Ulfric didn't need the Thu'um to kill Torygg. Yet he used it anyway.. simply for the sake of posturing "Look how powerful I am!". I suppose I despise Ulfric because he isn't genuine.

 

1. Ulfric claims Skyrim needs a High King who will fight for her. When surrounded by the Empire, just before he finds himself at Helgen, does Ulfric fight against the superior force? No. He surrenders meekly. Some fighter.....

 

2. Ulfric claims he's a defender of Skyrim's traditions. When confronted with the possibility the Moot will choose Elisef as High Queen, he throws a tantrum "Damn the Jarls! And Damn the moot!". Despite Nord tradition that dictates the Thu'um should only be used for veneration of the gods he uses it to further his own ambitions.

 

And then there is of course his victory speech, which really gets under my skin. The speech where he disingenuously makes a show of respecting the Moot's future choice of High King. This is going to sound off topic, but does anyone else find it ridiculous that he gives the Dragonborn ELVEN gear as a reward for his services? Why would he want one of his most prized champions looking like one of the Thalmor?! :sick:

Edited June 25, 2012 by Kraeten

[imperistan]

1. Refuse the challenge, thereby dishonoring himself and I believe forcing the Moot to be convened to choose a new High King (Let's not forget Nords love their honor, so the dishonoring himself part is a pretty big deal for his people.)

or

 

He was High King. No one was going to challenge him if simply threw Ulfric in chains for challenging him. Not to mention that no one would have found out regardless.

 

2. Fight against a man who is his superior in every martial respect. Sounds fair right?

 

Any man should know how to defend himself, regardless of how superior their potential opponent might be. Someone who is supposed to be the physical aspect of an entire nation (and remember, this isn't the modern real world. Skyrim is in a time when monarchs and other leaders still took part in their own wars as an actual soldier, rather than an administrator miles away) but can't even defend himself is a pathetic person undeserving of his throne.

 

But even if we want to ignore that, Torygg still wasn't fit as a king. He left a massively important decision for his nation on the shoulders of some insignificant Jarl's son and has literally shown no backbone whatsoever as a leader other than in not running away from Ulfric or having him arrested.

 

1. Ulfric claims Skyrim needs a High King who will fight for her. When surrounded by the Empire, just before he finds himself at Helgen, does Ulfric fight against the superior force? No. He surrenders meekly. Some fighter.....

 

There's a difference between having all of your men die in a futile battle and simply giving up. That's why Ulfric ordered his men to stand down.

 

There's also the possibility that Ulfric was ready to sacrifice himself in order to garner a martyr status.

 

2. Ulfric claims he's a defender of Skyrim's traditions. When confronted with the possibility the Moot will choose Elisef as High Queen, he throws a tantrum "Damn the Jarls! And Damn the moot!"

 

Yes because its wrong for someone to get angry that something isn't going the way they'd prefer it, particularly when so much is at stake.

 

Despite Nord tradition that dictates the Thu'um should only be used for veneration of the gods he uses it to further his own ambitions.

 

No, thats irrelevant Greybeard nonsense invented by the petty Windcaller. The Thu'um was no different for a Nord than a sword, an axe, a bow, or a spell. It was Windcaller being an arrogant man trying to save face that changed that and completely ruined the original point of the Thu'um in the first place.

 

And I sincerely hope I don't have to explain again why the pure pacifist philosophy is utter nonsense and completely ignores reality.

 

And then there is of course his victory speech, which really gets under my skin. The speech where he disingenuously makes a show of respecting the Moot's future choice of High King.

 

Skyrim may be willing to fight itself to free itself from the Empire, but it isn't going to fight itself a second time just because Ulfric pitches a fit because he didn't win the Throne. Ulfric may have a fair cult of personality surrounding him, but more of Skyrim's warriors are fighting for their homes and families, not Ulfric. So even if he does end up pitching a fit, he isn't going to have many behind him, and his new cause would be met with great hostility as people throw Ulfric in the bin with his irrelevant war mongering. Whatever trouble he could cause wouldn't last long.

 

And besides that, its extremely likely that Ulfric would win out anyway, seeing as he put half of Skyrim's leaders on their thrones and the other half supported him originally anyway. So unless someone whose vastly superior to Ulfric comes along (and honestly this would be my preference. I'm not fond of Ulfric either) he'll end up on the Throne.

 

This is going to sound off topic, but does anyone else find it ridiculous that he gives the Dragonborn ELVEN gear as a reward for his services? Why would he want one of his most prized champions looking like one of the Thalmor?!

 

Its just leveled stuff being given out. Thats why the Axe of Whiterun can be anything from a Steel War Axe to an Ebony Battle Axe.

[Kraeten]

He was High King. No one was going to challenge him if simply threw Ulfric in chains for challenging him. Not to mention that no one would have found out regardless.

 

You're ignoring the fact honor is extremely important to the Nords. Torygg acted as a true High King of Skyrim should by accepting the challenge.

 

Any man should know how to defend himself

 

Except Torygg certainly did have training...but to expect a boy to be able to stand a fair chance against a proven warrior and veteran is nothing less than laughable.

 

But even if we want to ignore that, Torygg still wasn't fit as a king. He left a massively important decision for his nation on the shoulders of some insignificant Jarl's son and has literally shown no backbone whatsoever as a leader other than in not running away from Ulfric or having him arrested.

 

While Torygg lived Skyrim was whole. Ulfric changed all that when he chose the bloodiest path possible. That doesn't make Ulfric a better leader, just more ruthless.

 

There's a difference between having all of your men die in a futile battle and simply giving up. That's why Ulfric ordered his men to stand down.

 

There's also the possibility that Ulfric was ready to sacrifice himself in order to garner a martyr status.

 

If he wanted to die a martyr, he could have simply fought the surrounding forces anyway. Same conclusion. The motivation behind his surrender is left to the imagination. Ralof's optimistic opinion could be in fact true, or perhaps Ulfric was counting on Thalmor intervention who knows.

 

Yes because its wrong for someone to get angry that something isn't going the way they'd prefer it, particularly when so much is at stake.

 

It is wrong, when the very thing he is railing against is a part of the country and traditions he claims to be defending and upholding.

 

No, thats irrelevant Greybeard nonsense invented by the petty Windcaller. The Thu'um was no different for a Nord than a sword, an axe, a bow, or a spell. It was Windcaller being an arrogant man trying to save face that changed that and completely ruined the original point of the Thu'um in the first place.

 

The petty Windcaller?! His Voice was among the mightiest of Skyrim! The Greybeards carry the respect of the Nords for good reason.

 

And I sincerely hope I don't have to explain again why the pure pacifist philosophy is utter nonsense and completely ignores reality.

 

And yet Jurgen defeated the mightiest wielders of the Voice in his day. Our standards aren't consistent with theirs.

 

And besides that, its extremely likely that Ulfric would win out anyway, seeing as he put half of Skyrim's leaders on their thrones and the other half supported him originally anyway. So unless someone whose vastly superior to Ulfric comes along (and honestly this would be my preference. I'm not fond of Ulfric either) he'll end up on the Throne.

 

Which is precisely the point. He's essentially rigged the Moot. Any dissenting voice among the Jarls has been replaced. To claim he supports the process the Moot undergoes in choosing the High King was a blatant lie. And no Jarl would be stupid enough to vote against him, since the Stormcloak army follows Ulfric. And with the Empire gone, the Stormcloaks are the only means of keeping order now.

 

Its just leveled stuff being given out. Thats why the Axe of Whiterun can be anything from a Steel War Axe to an Ebony Battle Axe.

 

While that's certainly true of some of the rewards, I'm not sure that true of all cases. I must have conquered Morthal for the Stormcloaks three times now, and after clearing out the neighboring fort I always get gilded Elven armor. 0.O

[Tidus44]

This is going to sound off topic, but does anyone else find it ridiculous that he gives the Dragonborn ELVEN gear as a reward for his services? Why would he want one of his most prized champions looking like one of the Thalmor?!

 

Considering Ulfric is a Thalmor bootlick and is being used to distract the Empire from more important things, it was probably the only armor he had available and Ulfric not being very smart made a mistake.