Why Ulfric was right to kill the High King

[BrettM]

Please cite for me the part where you found evidence of Toryg's beliefs and/or political agenda outside of Ulfric (who is bias) calling him a puppet. I didn't see this in the game anywhere, so if I'm wrong I would like the opportunity to be corrected.

I believe the woman who runs "Bits and Pieces" will say something to the effect that Torygg was okay as High King but gave a lot of boring speeches full of "the Empire this and the Empire that". However, Falk Firebeard will tell you that Torygg looked up to Ulfric and could have been persuaded into starting a rebellion, so the only excuse for the duel was Ulfric's ambition to be High King himself. In the end, it sounds like Torygg was rather weak and ineffective, with no strong convictions or political agenda of his own. Perhaps this is just because he came to the throne too young, but stupidity, weakness, and/or corruption does seem to be endemic among the jarls of Skyrim with few exceptions.

 

Too bad Balgruuf couldn't be persuaded to support the rebellion in a manner similar to Dengeir, who supports the cause but is neither in fear nor awe of Ulfric. (Dengeir is a pretty canny old bird, despite his paranoia, and I think he is one of the better jarls. I like him.) Afterward, the Moot would have had a real choice between Balgruuf and Ulfric when naming a new High King. An independent Skyrim under Balgruuf would be ideal, IMHO. However, even with Ulfric on the throne, it would be a good check on his ambitions to have as many jarls as possible around who would not be his lap dogs. As things stand, Dengeir seems pretty much alone in his viewpoint, though perhaps Vignar might dig in his heels at need.

[fraquar]

Skyrim should have done the same as Hammerfell did - and fight for their independence.

 

Anything less is subjecting yourself to being a puppet - as we see when Lady Elysif asks you to take her dead husbands items to a Shrine of Talos. He secretly worshiped Talos but wouldn't defend the right to openly worship - even though Skyrim's neighbors were doing just that - refusing the terms of the White-Gold Concordat.

 

Seems pretty clear to me.

[Stemin]

Please cite for me the part where you found evidence of Toryg's beliefs and/or political agenda outside of Ulfric (who is bias) calling him a puppet. I didn't see this in the game anywhere, so if I'm wrong I would like the opportunity to be corrected.

I believe the woman who runs "Bits and Pieces" will say something to the effect that Torygg was okay as High King but gave a lot of boring speeches full of "the Empire this and the Empire that". However, Falk Firebeard will tell you that Torygg looked up to Ulfric and could have been persuaded into starting a rebellion, so the only excuse for the duel was Ulfric's ambition to be High King himself. In the end, it sounds like Torygg was rather weak and ineffective, with no strong convictions or political agenda of his own. Perhaps this is just because he came to the throne too young, but stupidity, weakness, and/or corruption does seem to be endemic among the jarls of Skyrim with few exceptions.

 

Well who would you choose to believe? A commoner or someone who worked for him personally? Regardless, I'm still waiting for someone to give me a good reason why a rebellion from the empire is a good thing. Throwing the word religious persecution around doesn't do it for me since religious persecution only existed on paper until Ulric threw his tantrum.

Edited May 20, 2012 by Stemin

[BrettM]

Throwing the word religious persecution around doesn't do it for me since religious persecution only existed on paper until Ulric threw his tantrum.

I'm not so sure that's true. Alvor does say that when he "was a boy", people got along by just keeping their own private shrines to Talos. However, it seems likely to me that it took the Thalmor a few years to thoroughly infiltrate Cyrodiil with their "advisors" and "observers" and so forth before they could really start in on Skyrim, especially given their troubles in Hammerfell. I think it was inevitable that this infiltration would reach Skyrim as the Thalmor strengthened their foothold in the Empire, and religious persecution is only the most overt symptom right now. I have no doubt that they always intended to have their people at the elbows of everyone with a position of power in Skyrim, and we came in on the beginning of that. Ulfric didn't throw his tantrum until after the Empire came in and shut down the temple of Talos in Markarth. The Empire had nothing against Ulfric at that point, and they were more than happy that he reclaimed the Reach for them.

 

I would also submit that religious persecution "on paper" is still religious persecution if you feel forced to practice your religion in secret. Having to close down your temples and hide your beliefs is better than being dragged off by Thalmor justiciars, but it is far from religious freedom.

[Daggdag]

Ulfric is a racist peice of crap. He would let anyone who is not a Nord suffer and die, and laugh about it afterwards. He is not fit to be a king, or even a jarl

 

The Empire may not be perfect, but it is not led by a xenophobic a**hole, at least.

 

 

The Nords have been challenged by EVERY OTHER RACE. They have reasons to be racist, I highly agree on all of the racism the Stormcloaks have. Ulfric has lived through the times where Skyrim suffered because of other races, and he only can trust his own.

 

 

If a race of Elven warlords came into Skyrim, and you lived inside as a Nord, and these elves took Skyrim and enslaved everyone, wouldn't you be racist towards them? I know I would.

 

The Nords have done their share of unwarranted attacks on other races. So other races have reason to hate them as well........Such as the Foresworn....the Nords stole their land......

 

The Nords stole Skyrim from the elves to begin with.........

 

The fact that Ulfric openly ignores the suffering of anyone who is not a nord is why I hate him.....No it's more than that, he does not just ignore it.....He takes pleasure in the suffering of all non-nords. He would laugh if he saw a dark elf child being murdered in the street.......He is not fit to rule......He is a pathetic excuse for a man and is a horrible person in general.

Edited May 21, 2012 by Daggdag

[SubjectProphet]

Ulfric is a racist peice of crap. He would let anyone who is not a Nord suffer and die, and laugh about it afterwards. He is not fit to be a king, or even a jarl

 

The Empire may not be perfect, but it is not led by a xenophobic a**hole, at least.

 

 

The Nords have been challenged by EVERY OTHER RACE. They have reasons to be racist, I highly agree on all of the racism the Stormcloaks have. Ulfric has lived through the times where Skyrim suffered because of other races, and he only can trust his own.

 

 

If a race of Elven warlords came into Skyrim, and you lived inside as a Nord, and these elves took Skyrim and enslaved everyone, wouldn't you be racist towards them? I know I would.

 

The Nords have done their share of unwarranted attacks on other races. So other races have reason to hate them as well........Such as the Foresworn....the Nords stole their land......

 

The Nords stole Skyrim from the elves to begin with.........

 

The fact that Ulfric openly ignores the suffering of anyone who is not a nord is why I hate him.....No it's more than that, he does not just ignore it.....He takes pleasure in the suffering of all non-nords. He would laugh if he saw a dark elf child being murdered in the street.......He is not fit to rule......He is a pathetic excuse for a man and is a horrible person in general.

 

You seem to not know much right now.

 

 

The Reach Natives were torturing the Nords, and Ulfric attacked them to stop the events. The Elven slave trade began during the Great War, and the Nords stopped the lines and stole for redemption. They heavily affected the Elven tradelines during the war, supporting the Empire in great ways, but the Imperials turned their backs on them.

[Daggdag]

Ulfric is a racist peice of crap. He would let anyone who is not a Nord suffer and die, and laugh about it afterwards. He is not fit to be a king, or even a jarl

 

The Empire may not be perfect, but it is not led by a xenophobic a**hole, at least.

 

 

The Nords have been challenged by EVERY OTHER RACE. They have reasons to be racist, I highly agree on all of the racism the Stormcloaks have. Ulfric has lived through the times where Skyrim suffered because of other races, and he only can trust his own.

 

 

If a race of Elven warlords came into Skyrim, and you lived inside as a Nord, and these elves took Skyrim and enslaved everyone, wouldn't you be racist towards them? I know I would.

 

The Nords have done their share of unwarranted attacks on other races. So other races have reason to hate them as well........Such as the Foresworn....the Nords stole their land......

 

The Nords stole Skyrim from the elves to begin with.........

 

The fact that Ulfric openly ignores the suffering of anyone who is not a nord is why I hate him.....No it's more than that, he does not just ignore it.....He takes pleasure in the suffering of all non-nords. He would laugh if he saw a dark elf child being murdered in the street.......He is not fit to rule......He is a pathetic excuse for a man and is a horrible person in general.

 

You seem to not know much right now.

 

 

The Reach Natives were torturing the Nords, and Ulfric attacked them to stop the events. The Elven slave trade began during the Great War, and the Nords stopped the lines and stole for redemption. They heavily affected the Elven tradelines during the war, supporting the Empire in great ways, but the Imperials turned their backs on them.

 

The Nords attacked the Foresworn years before that, and stole the land from them. This happened years before Ulfric was born. What the Foresworn did was payback for things done to them when the Nords first attacked them.

 

As for the Elven slave trade. It began years before the Great War.....centuries.....

Edited May 21, 2012 by Daggdag

[Daggdag]

"Racism" is just the politically correct buzzword du jour. I don't think there's any real evidence of racism on Ulfric's part. It's a transposition of a 21st century malaise.

 

Human beings are genetically programed to trust family first, clan second...and so forth, with diminishing trust as more complex and diverse hierarchies develop.

 

In feudal or relatively non-diverse societies, trust doesn't come easy for those who appear different and may not ever come for those who do not share a common culture. If only because "racism" is at least one-third part cultural conflict.

 

Because "trust" is the issue...the real issue. And Trust Must be Earned.

 

I suspect that when you really look closely...and objectively...Ulfric is revealed as being almost indifferent to race. But he doesn't trust people who have not proven themselves.

 

Ulfric has a political objective--to dissolve the unholy alliance between the Thalmor and the putative government of Skyrim. And that's not so hard to understand.

 

One of the warriors in WIndhelm talks about it. He says that Ulfric is always the first to send aid to Nords in trouble, but will never lift a finger to help non-nords. He says there are people suffering throughout Windhelm Hold and Ulfric does not care because they are elves, argonians, ect. The best quote from him is..."In Ulfric's mind, there two types of people....Nords, and everyone beneath them."

[etang2]

This is a double edged blade, on one hand it is wrong for the empire and the Aldemeri Dominion to forbid a clear birthright, that of the fact that any person should be able to worship whoever they want, regardless of their importance in others minds, as long as it doesn't imped on others. On the other hand, Ulfric has proved himself and his people to be racists who casually disregard other with apparent ease, also robbing them of another birth right, the right to safety and equality

[MacSuibhne]

This is a double edged blade, on one hand it is wrong for the empire and the Aldemeri Dominion to forbid a clear birthright, that of the fact that any person should be able to worship whoever they want, regardless of their importance in others minds, as long as it doesn't imped on others. On the other hand, Ulfric has proved himself and his people to be racists who casually disregard other with apparent ease, also robbing them of another birth right, the right to safety and equality

 

 

What are you talking about?!

 

No species, no "race", has a birthright to safety and equality! We don't come into this world with a guarantee of anything...not even our next breath.

 

It's sophistry, pure and simple, to assert otherwise. And I suspect that it arises from a contemporary sense of entitlement that frankly no one in any society similar to those of Skyrim would recognize.

 

Or a deeply solipsistic perception that the universe revolves around us and cares about what happens to us.

 

Sometimes, in some places, and in some eras, people come together to create governments which undertake to offer...not guarantee...a measure of protection to their citizens--universally defined as stakeholders in the government. Such governments and such assurances are wholly constructs of the societies from which they arise.

 

Neither the AD, nor the Empire, nor the Stormcloaks are constitutional forms of government. They are all ruled from the top down. And they all regard their citizens as incidental. None of them derive their power from a mandate of the people; nor are they obligated to fulfill the expectations or wish-lists of the dissatisfied.

 

Ulfric leads a fragile faction that despises the political union of the AD and the Empire. He has one focus--to defeat the Empire and kick out the Thalmor. He is loyal to, and solicitous of, those who support him and his cause. Stakeholders, taxpayers.

 

He is...at least for the time being...indifferent to anyone or anything else that doesn't directly concern his attempt to create a strong and viable opposition/rebellion (there are many revered figures in our own history who behaved the same way).

 

That's not only understandable it is even somewhat admirable. He is not, after all, actively persecuting people who might very well be spies in his midst or dedicated to undermining him and or his efforts.

 

But indifference, esp. in this context, is not racism...despite a rather emotional, even desperate, attempt to define it as such. It is, simply, the way the universe works.

Edited May 21, 2012 by MacSuibhne