Why Ulfric was right to kill the High King

[djinx187]

Except we do have evidence, which I cited and quoted just a few posts before yours. That evidence is crystal clear: the Empire sanctioned Talos worship in Markarth and later reneged on the deal when the Thalmor got wind of it.

 

Seriously ask yourself two questions about the Markarth Incident and it will clear things up.

 

1. Who would gain the most out of a sanctioned Talos worship in Markarth lie?

 

if the Nords gave the promise of talos worship what would they have gotten out of it? Jarl Igmund would have gotten control over his land back. A nice plot to remove the leader of the militia who if he tried to control the town. The Silver-Bloods got the silver mine back. As well as revenge for losing their land. Oh yeah added bonus pissing off the Empire and making a rebellion to boot.

If the Empire gave the promise of talos worship what would they have gotten out of it? A war at worst a pissed off Thalmor and a pissed off Nords at best?

That looks like the Nords to me.

 

2. Who would have gained the most out of an Independent Kingdom for the Brentons?

 

The Nords would have gained nothing.

The Empire would have gained a nice little ally and have access to the silver mines.

That looks like a win for the Empire.

 

Also look how the Empire reacted to Hammerfell's loss of land. They didn't do jack for them. What makes you think that they would go out of their way for Skyrim to get land back? Literally makes no sense whatsoever. Jarl Igmund's father lost the reach to the forsworn. It was his rule to be lost if the Brentons took control over the reach. That is more then enough reason alone to break a promise like that. Once you look at the motives behind what the people did then things become clear. Unless the Empire is really that retarded instead of being just sly and only thinking of themselves.

 

Thinking that the Jarl Igmund's father was indeed in fact working on the Empire's behalf is what got Ulfric pissed off in the first place. Seems like it was a good enough trick to fool people outside of the game as well :P

most of the info you get from the Jarl Igmund and his Uncle ingame with the book going about the peace treaty that and a little logic. ( the only guy who says the Empire is a stablehand.but with all of the info from the game The forsworn, Igmund, the Silverbloods, The Imperial Spy, even an exurb from the bear of Markarth about the treaty pushes it towards personal gain )

 

Now about the Dunmer...

 

I just don't see it as being racist. Half of the Dunmer hate the other half of the Dunmer for the same exact reasons as the Nords of Windhelm do. Heck they even have a couple of Altmers going around living just fine after they earned the trust of the people. The Imperial spy line always cracks me up though because when you go upstairs in the New Gnisis Cornerclub what do you find up on the 2nd floor.

 

-edit doh messed up incident with confusing Igmund's father with Igmund but it still leads to the same thing. Loss of land and rule.

Edited July 10, 2012 by djinx187

[Moraelin]

That is blatantly false for anyone who's played the game, as there IS one free house in that city, and, if you've done a certain quest, at least one more. Plus what is actually said in the game is that they're not ALLOWED, not that they couldn't find a house to rent.

 

Other people have equal right to live in the rest of the city too you know.

 

I don't think you have a clue what "equal right" means. Yes, they SHOULD have an equal right. But when one side is forbidden from living in that rest of the city at all, no, that's not an equal right to live there.

 

Again, the Grey Quarter was set aside specifically for the Dunmer to live in. The rest of the city was (and is) reserved for original Windhelm citizens (and in the sort of society that exists in Tamriel, original citizens take some precedence over refugees). The Dunmer are not true citizens of Windhelm and never were.

 

At this point I can pretty much rest my case. Such nonsense as that people born in a country, "are not true citizens and never were", and that that's somehow justifiable along RACE lines (I don't see Nords coming from outside being forced into the same ghetto), is an actual racist argument. If you're telling me that that's Ulfric's reason, then you just made my case.

 

BS. Everyone who has anything relevant on the topic to say, mentions going to the guards and Ulfric. It doesn't indicate at all that it's outside Ulfric's jurisdiction.

 

It doesn't not indicate it either. Quote me some undeniable proof that Ulfric is directly saying "No, we won't help you because we don't like you", and I'll concede. Until then, my point stands.

 

Sorry, dude, you don't get to put conditions as to who has to say it in game to be canon. If it's in the game, it IS canon, unless disproven by something else from the game.

 

So, no, your point doesn't stand, and it really never did. It just shows you're still not getting this newfangled "logic" thing. It's only been around for some 2500 years, after all ;)

 

But apparently all that standing up for rights doesn't apply when it's about the rights of a bunch of people actually discriminated against by race,

 

Can't get over the Dunmer can you? I'm not even going into how its terribly obvious that you're using the Dunmer as a red herring, but the Dunmer are irrelevant to the actual Stormcloak cause. They have all the power to fix their situation, period. That they don't is their own faults. Not the Stormcloaks.

 

It doesn't matter if there really is discrimination (No, there isn't) because no one is forcing them to live there. And unless you're going to try and pull this crap that Ulfric should be a social revolutionary (when even the notion of such thing won't even be invented in his world for another thousand years, if not even longer) then you can't say they can't fix their own situation. They can either leave and make their own lives, or they can get off their asses and fix their problems.

 

After 200 years, it isn't the Jarl's responsibility to help the Dunmer along. IF this was just following the Red Year, then yes, the Jarl would have an obligation to help the Dunmer refugees set up in the Grey Quarter. But this is 200 years after the fact. The Jarls of Windhelm have already given all the assistance they were ever obligated to give them.

 

It's kinda funny to see someone delusional enough to actually use racist arguments as proof that one side isn't racist...

 

Again, "nobody is forcing them to live there" about some people who were born there -- unless you're telling me that all elves were sterile in those 200 years -- or who lived there for 200 years, is not excusing discrimination, but is itself indicative that someone IS racist. Equality means equal rights and privileges right there, NOT basically "you're free to leave if you don't like being a second class citizen."

 

Ditto for blaming the victims for their unequal state. Do you have any evidence from the actual game that the Dunmer are any lazier than the rest of the population? Is Ambarys Rendar working less hours than any other innkeeper in the game? Is Sadri working any less hours than any other general store keeper? Or what the heck?

 

Ascribing negative qualities like being lazy to a group, without any objective data to support it, IS racism.

 

Replace that nonsense with any real RL race to see why it is racist. Try saying "nobody is keeping the Jews here" or "the blacks in South Africa were just poor because they're lazy" with a straight face, and virtually nobody would say it ISN'T racist.

 

So what I'm seeing is basically a racist trying to excuse another racist, with the standard racist arguments. This isn't by association, you're literally sounding like the RL racists with their rhetoric. I can only assume it's some kind of role-playing, since I can't see any real reason for someone sane to actually be bigotted against some virtual characters. I assume you realize the fine distinction between your CHARACTER being all into acting like a proper Nord skinhead, and YOU doing the same thing. You're not a Nord in Skyrim, but I assume you knew that. Though role-playing a fictive character in a serious thread still strikes me as polluting the thread with content-free nonsense. The issue discussed is what can be supported with in-game lore, not what unsupported delusions and preconceptions does your character hold.

 

But at any rate, get this: you can stop repeating that stuff already. It's not making the point you seem to think it is. Spewing racist slogans in defense of Ulfric is the awfully wrong and counter-productive thing to do, if you're really trying to say that he's NOT racist.

 

Also, nobody is asking Ulfric to be a social revolutionary or anything. I'm just noting that he IS leading an Apartheid state and being racist. He doesn't HAVE to stop being that, but as long as he continues his being ok to continue that Apartheid state and unwillingness to assist a racial group in any way, well, he's just that: a racist leader of an Apartheid-type state. I might work for him in some playthroughs (heck, compared to playing a murderer and a thief, helping a racist is kinda small change), but I don't have to pretend that he's some kind of blameless saviour. I can live with a game having an anti-hero, but I don't have to pretend that he's anything else.

 

Actual game content, please, not your own suppositions.

 

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Decree_of_Monument

 

But why should I even bother to quote my source yet again when you're just going to ignore it like you did before? Theres little point in showing you evidence when you're just going to sit there and look the other way for no other seeming reason than because it doesn't taste good when you read it. That is straight out of the game. If you deny it yet again then you're a hypocrite.

 

No, you're still not getting this newfangled "logic" thing. I have explained to you what the objections to it are.

 

But in a nutshell, to have a SOUND argument, you must have both a valid inference AND premises that can be supported as true. You can't take just ONE and then build your own confabulation from there. You need BOTH to have an argument.

 

In this case you do have one premise, but what you confabulate from there relies on other premises that you haven't supported yet.

 

But at any rate, your failure to use logic right isn't making me a hypocrite, it's still just saying that you fail logic. Epically. Again.

 

You also have to wonder why apparently the Dunmer want to stay where they are. I can't imagine why anyone of them would want to stay in Windhelm, regardless of what "discrimination" you say is going on. Explain to me why the Dunmer want to stay in Windhelm and may be I'll concede that they could be deserving of a little more help.

 

Well, see, this is one point where I'd say that actually plaing the darned game and paying attention to what's in it, would beat just making up your own "lore". Because you actually have the chance to ask Malthyr Elenil exactly that question in the game. His answer is: because he's got friends and ties in the city. I.e., basically you know, the same as why RL Americans don't just pack up and go to England, or wherever their ancestors came from 200 years ago.

 

. So far all you offer is just insisting that somehow "self" means they're allowed to govern everyone else too,

 

Every governing body that has ever existed has had the right to govern those who insert themselves within their borders. This is why you can't go to France, murder a bunch of a people, and then come back to the US and expect to get off scott free. If the Dunmer want those two drunken beggars gone, they can raise a guard, evict the two men, and they will be in the right. None of it has to be violent. Lets remember that these two aren't exactly Nordic Warlords, its not like they'd actually be much trouble to evict from the area.

 

That's blatantly bogus, for anyone who knows any history. I already gave you the Warsaw Ghetto as an example that didn't actually have any rights against Germans going in or out. Another example you can find right in the frikken Bible. In Acts, once Paul invokes the fact that he's a Roman citizen, the local courts have no more authority over him, and he gets sent under a MASSIVE guard to be tried in Rome and appeal to the Emperor. (Yeah, appealing to Nero, that's got to be a sane thing :P ) Virtually all the countries the Romans annexed were first set up as (very inequal) "allies", though closer to what we now call vassals. They had the right to govern themselves and their own citizens (which from the Roman point of view weren't Roman citizens, but "peregrini", i.e., foreign residents in Roman territory), but had no jurisdiction against Roman citizens there. Examples of annexed states which self-governed include the Egyptian nomes and Judaea under Herod: they didn't have to conduct a census (the census in Luke happened when Judaea was turned into a Roman province and had Quirinus appointed as governor), were responsible for their own tax collection and administration, had full rights to dispense justice according to their own laws to the non-citizens in their territory, and even minted their own coins. But doing something against a Roman citizen was right out.

 

And it's not just those. Virtually all provinces and cities in the ancient times and middle ages were set up as vassals, with SOME degree of self-governing, but that meant some degree of autonomy, NOT complete independence and sovereignty.

 

And again, rather than navel gazing and speculating, you could look at what is actually said in the game. Stuff like Malthyr Elenil mentioning the mis-treatment they got from Ulfric and his people (he explicitly names Ulfric too, so it's not just oh, poor little Ulfric didn't know what some beggars are doing in his city), or Ambarys Rendar mentioning going to the guards and Ulfric for support and getting none. Both are NOT indicative of full sovereignty. And between that and your insistence to redefine what a word must mean, sorry, in-game canon wins over some fan's unsupported delusions every single time.

 

you don't get to just make up lore or canon

 

Clearly a book out straight out of the game is just made up canon. A site that takes the vast majority of its information straight from the Creation Kit is obviously just all made up fan-fic.

 

Try harder.

 

That was actually about an usupported Wiki quote that Mac had posted. So you try harder. Maybe next time you won't fail comprehension.

 

But even about that book in the game, yes, the book is canon, but your delusional extrapolations are not. You don't get to just make up what it really means.

 

Basing it on a he-said, she-said from the actual game, still beats basing it on your own arbitrary re-imagining canon. It's that simple. Your disbelief is fully irrelevant. You don't just get to make up what's in the game in any case, including your finding the actual content untrustworthy.

 

In other words: I didn't read the topic.

 

In other words, you're still having comprehension problems, if that's what you understood there. Not that it comes as a surprise, mind you :P

[SFBryan18]

Imperials pose the argument that Ulfric is racist and use Windhelm as an example, but has anyone raised the point that Kahjiit are not allowed in the Imperial controlled cities as well? I don't think two wrongs make a right, but I do believe that the Imperials are hypocrites. Plus, in another thread someone raised a good point that the Stormcloaks allow you to join them no matter what your race and they always treat you the same besides the one custom dialogue question that Galmar asks you about why you want to join. After playing the Stormcloak side several times, Ulfric seems to be more concerned about the people of Skyrim than about race. Perhaps the people of Windhelm are racist, along with most of the Nords. Perhaps Nords are racist, so does that mean that they are unfit to rule themselves? Give me one civilization that isn't racist and I'll tell you you're wrong. People are racist. You need proof... Does any country allow animals the same rights as people? Obviously not. In fact, many animals are not protected until endangered. Here in America, 10 states allow cougar hunting. Isn't that racist? The human race believes they are superior to the cougar race... People are racist. In fact, the word racist is actually misused by many people because there is only one human race, so anyone that has a negative judgement to another group of people is actually an ethnicist. In Skyrim though, they are actually different species, and maybe a Dark Elf can be looked at by the Nords the way we look at the cougar. Personally, I wish cougar hunters were put in a cage with a cougar and not given any weapons.

[Moraelin]

Well, bingo, the Empire isn't nice either. Which is why I've said before that the choice is between two a-holes. I just don't need to whitewash one side into saintly freedom fighters.

 

Edit: that said, though

 

A) Yes, the discussion as you enter Windhelm is indicating that it's generally Nords in that city that are bullying everyone who isn't a Nord. So does asking Akhari (a khajiit) about discrimination against her kind.

 

B) I didn't say Nords are unfit to rule themselves, all I've said before is that when I'm playing a non-Nord, I find it hard to get motivated to fight against some people who discriminate against me and my kind. If there were a group of rebels somewhere that openly discriminated against whites, I wouldn't exactly be thrilled to fight for their rights, when they're so happy to deny me mine. No matter how just their cause otherwise might be. If they expect me to take an arrow to the knee for their rights, then literally the least they can do is take it as a two way street.

 

And I still don't have to pretend that the problem doesn't exist.

 

C) Well, it's true about the poor Khajiit, but it's only in Windhelm for example that Argonians are forced to live on the docks. In the only city really under quasi-direct Imperial control, Solitude, there are two Argonians right in the city. Also, IIRC there is one Khajiit too in Solitude. So it would indicate more of a Nord problem than official discrimination by the Empire. In the only city controlled by the Imperials, both seem a bit more allowed.

[SFBryan18]

Well, all people have their faults. Maybe not saintly, but the Stormcloaks do want freedom from the Empire. Right and wrong just depends on your loyalties.

 

Edit: Moraelin, my statements weren't directed at you or anything you said. It was mainly an idea for everyone because I have noticed that Ulfric is accused of being racist a lot. So sorry if you though I was quoting you. Just happens that I read your response and I decided to give my own ideas on the subject.

 

But yea, I always knock that racist drunk guy out when I first visit Windhelm. I think that Nords in general are pretty racist, and maybe, being that he is a Nord too, Ulfric probably does allow a lot of racism. This attitude is meant to fit the storyline to show that the people in that side of Skyrim are sick of outsiders, which would seem likely during a rebellion.

[FreeeLancer]

dunno how to delete post.. Edited July 10, 2012 by FreeeLancer

[imperistan]

I don't think you have a clue what "equal right" means. Yes, they SHOULD have an equal right. But when one side is forbidden from living in that rest of the city at all, no, that's not an equal right to live there.

 

Please show me the acres of land within the city walls that are just sitting there, unused, ready for houses to be built, untouched only because the Dunmer can't touch it. OH WAIT! There isn't any! Zomg.

 

Please take a look at all the Dunmer in the Grey Quarter and show me where they can go live in the rest of the city. Go ahead, show me some maps of where you seem to think all this available space for them is.

 

Such nonsense as that people born in a country, "are not true citizens and never were", and that that's somehow justifiable along RACE lines (I don't see Nords coming from outside being forced into the same ghetto), is an actual racist argument.

 

Here's a massive hint: Everyone in Tamriel is racist. You're accusing racists of being racist against racists. You can't judge whats right in this universe by whats right in ours. They are not the same and in a general time line of social developmen Tamriel is still A THOUSAND YEARS behind our own world, and thats if in a thousand years anything actually changes.

 

And I'm not getting into it again how the Grey Quarter is not a part of Windhelm.

 

Sorry, dude, you don't get to put conditions as to who has to say it in game to be canon. If it's in the game, it IS canon, unless disproven by something else from the game.

 

You're the one accusing Ulfric. Its your burden to prove it. All I see in the game is a bunch of lazy Dunmer whining that they aren't having their asses wiped by Ulfric personally. I can prove that by citing the acres of farmland in Skyrim not being used by any of these Dunmer and the fact that after 200 years the Dunmer have done little if anything to fix their own plight. Black people in the US didn't just sit around and wait for whites to give them everything. They worked their asses off to make life better for themselves.

 

It doesn't take 200 years to have a population like what we see in the Grey Quarter (presuming that the current population is indicative of the general population that has existed over the years) to get back to a state similar to what it was before they became refugees.

 

Again, "nobody is forcing them to live there" about some people who were born there -- unless you're telling me that all elves were sterile in those 200 years -- or who lived there for 200 years, is not excusing discrimination, but is itself indicative that someone IS racist. Equality means equal rights and privileges right there, NOT basically "you're free to leave if you don't like being a second class citizen."

 

Please show me how the WIndhelm guards are barricading the Grey Quarter and not letting any Dunmer leave. Show me, how the Dunmer are just STRUGGLING to get out and go make a living (PS, the city isn't the only place you can do this and honestly, it isn't the best place to do it if you're not a merchant, and not everyone can be a merchant) but no one is letting them leave the city nor their apparent "ghetto".

 

To quote a Dunmer himself:

 

He is very proud of his farm and gladly shares his philosophy, saying, "The best way for us to win the Nords' respect is through hard work." He also comments that the other dark elves in Windhelm complain too much: "Too many dark elves in Windhelm complain about the way we're treated. What good does complaining do?" Lastly, he may say, "I'm proud of my farm. It takes no small effort to grow crops in this part of Skyrim." His employee at the farm, Adisla is seemingly getting too old to work the farm and will often complain, "Starting to get too old to work all day, but hopefully Master Hlaalu will let me slow down a bit."

 

A link, if you feel like just calling that all "fan-fic" in your usual cop-out: http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Belyn_Hlaalu

 

It'd be nice if you'd stop being a hypocrite for once and actually support your assertions with facts, not emotionally charged BS that you like to spew just because you got caught up in the emotionally charged whining of the Dunmer.

 

Ditto for blaming the victims for their unequal state. Do you have any evidence from the actual game that the Dunmer are any lazier than the rest of the population? Is Ambarys Rendar working less hours than any other innkeeper in the game? Is Sadri working any less hours than any other general store keeper? Or what the heck?

 

Ahem:

 

It doesn't take 200 years to have a population like what we see in the Grey Quarter (presuming that the current population is indicative of the general population that has existed over the years) to get back to a state similar to what it was before they became refugees.

 

Also, nice that you quote the only two Dunmer in the Grey Quarter that are holding down substantial jobs.

 

Replace that nonsense with any real RL race to see why it is racist. Try saying "nobody is keeping the Jews here" or "the blacks in South Africa were just poor because they're lazy" with a straight face, and virtually nobody would say it ISN'T racist.

 

Those peoples situations were also vastly different from the Dunmer. You can't use examples like that when they aren't even related to what you're talking about.

 

Though role-playing a fictive character in a serious thread still strikes me as polluting the thread with content-free nonsense. The issue discussed is what can be supported with in-game lore, not what unsupported delusions and preconceptions does your character hold.

 

He says this, yet continually refuses to back up his assertions when the burden of proof is on him.

 

But at any rate, get this: you can stop repeating that stuff already. It's not making the point you seem to think it is. Spewing racist slogans in defense of Ulfric is the awfully wrong and counter-productive thing to do, if you're really trying to say that he's NOT racist.

 

So are you going to get over yourself (and off your high horse) and actually disprove anything or are you just going to sit there and skirt around the issue. If you want to win against me in this argument, destroy my points with facts that I cannot dispute. Assert your claims with indisputable evidence. You have yet do this and are continually skirting the issue just so you can sit there and preach against racism. We get it, racism is bad. Come back when thats relevant to the universe were arguing about, and feel free to get off your soap box any time.

 

No, you're still not getting this newfangled "logic" thing. I have explained to you what the objections to it are.

 

But in a nutshell, to have a SOUND argument, you must have both a valid inference AND premises that can be supported as true. You can't take just ONE and then build your own confabulation from there. You need BOTH to have an argument.

 

In this case you do have one premise, but what you confabulate from there relies on other premises that you haven't supported yet.

 

But at any rate, your failure to use logic right isn't making me a hypocrite, it's still just saying that you fail logic. Epically. Again.

 

Yet again, you skirt around the issue. Stop being such a wart and dispute it. Don't preach, DEBATE. Tell me what there is wrong with that source. Let me bold some things for you:

 

This tower once served as a meeting place where those brave souls who achieved safe passage to Skyrim would find loved ones, and leave notice for others who could not be found.

 

Let it stand in honor of those who had the strength and spirit to accept Skyrim's Offer "untithed to any thane or hold, and self-governed, with free worship, with no compensation to Skyrim or the Empire except as writ in the Armistice of old wheresoever those might still apply, and henceforth let no Man or Mer say that the Sons and Daughters of Kyne are without mercy or honor."

 

That right there proves the Dunmer make their own ghetto. They have free real estate, owe nothing to anyone in Skyrim nor to the Empire as a whole, and are free to settle (and we can reasonably assume anywhere) in Skyrim.

 

We, the Jarls of Skyrim, hereby decree this site as monument to the struggle of those who fled their native home of Morrowind in the time following the Red Year.

 

Well, see, this is one point where I'd say that actually plaing the darned game and paying attention to what's in it, would beat just making up your own "lore". Because you actually have the chance to ask Malthyr Elenil exactly that question in the game. His answer is: because he's got friends and ties in the city. I.e., basically you know, the same as why RL Americans don't just pack up and go to England, or wherever their ancestors came from 200 years ago.

 

Congrats, you explained why one man wants to stay in Windhelm. I asked for why the entire populace insists on it.

 

That's blatantly bogus, for anyone who knows any history. I already gave you the Warsaw Ghetto as an example that didn't actually have any rights against Germans going in or out.

 

:wallbash: You quote history yet you don't even know why the Warsaw Ghetto was the way it was. It should be blatantly obvious to anyone who isn't just clearly looking crap up on the internet as he goes.

 

The Warsaw Ghetto was the way it was because the Germans weren't going to give the Jews anything real there. They never intended to. The administration of the Ghetto was just a puppet for the Nazis. This isn't the case with the Grey Quarter.

 

And I'm not going to even get into how the Jews of the Warsaw Ghetto weren't ******* refugees fleeing a natural disaster and being given free reign to find a place to live in Poland. They were victims of a hostile invading force that forced them from their homes and herded them into the ghetto like rats.

 

Another example you can find right in the frikken Bible.

 

And he misses the point. Shwing and a miss.

 

But even about that book in the game, yes, the book is canon, but your delusional extrapolations are not. You don't get to just make up what it really means.

 

You're too funny.

[BrettM]

Sorry, dude, you don't get to put conditions as to who has to say it in game to be canon. If it's in the game, it IS canon, unless disproven by something else from the game.

It is canon that they said it. It is not necessarily canon for the truth of what was said. NPCs can be biased, uninformed, or liars. No one is obliged to accept their unsupported word as truth in the absence of any solid confirming evidence. Anything said or written does not have to be taken as gospel until disproved, as you claim, but is open to question.

 

This is especially true when one character is speaking of the motives of another. Since the NPCs are not established to be mind readers, anything they say on the subject must be taken as opinion. Their opinion is based on their interpretation of what they've seen or claim to have seen or have been told by others, which hardly makes it Revealed Truth. It is quite proper to have doubts about the validity of an NPCs opinion.

[Deleted4666244User]

why are we even debating the killing of high king Torygg? hwat we should be discussing is was Ulfric right in starting the Civil War to split his people when there were other, more peaceful options? like in the DB quest Breaching Security, He knew the emperor was going to be in Skyrim, why not ruin the plan by showing up to discuss a peaceful secession when the DB shows up to kill Mede.

[Deleted4666244User]

hey, wouldn't killing Torygg, who was not only high king, but also the Jarl of Solitude, not make Ulfric Jarl of Solitude as well? if so why even fight the civil war? he owns the HQ of the empire in Skyrim can't he just kick them out? oh that's right, ULFRIC IS NOT HIGH KING BECAUSE TRADITION MEANS SQUAT IN A PROVINCE OF THE EMPIRE!

 

(going off of the line "when the Jarls start killing each other, then the empire takes notice")

Edited July 10, 2012 by Guest