Vortex Criticism

[Grestorn]

Thank you very much for the very detailed insight into your decision.

 

I can't say that I agree with everything you wrote. I do have some experience with callback-driven development (having done my share of JavaScript / jQuery coding), but I'm not so convinced that this kind of coding is really superior. For me, this is just another thing that encourages a quick and dirty coding style - which is so common these days, because most software products are so short-lived.

 

But that's all opinion and you made your decisions. The future will show if you're still happy with it in 5 years or so :smile:

 

Your statement about the vastness and short-livedness of new technologies, which are outdated faster than they were created, and the issue of finding competent developers for them, is right on the spot. I've been wondering the same thing. I've done some WPF/XAML myself (not much, just one project), and this technology is extremely complex and powerful. But, as you said, before people even had a chance to learn it properly, it was already discontinued.

 

So in the end, the whole world moves towards technologies which were created for a whole different purpose with a lot of quirks, compatbility burdens and shortcomings. I can't say I really like this development.

 

But that's a discussion for another place and time.

 

You wrote: "And node.js/electron isn't great but (depending on your goals) it's probably the least worst alternative in a sea of horrible."

 

Well, maybe that's true. But it would be sad and I'm happy that I'm already rather close to my retirement these days... :)

 

Thanks again for your insights.

[UhlanB76]

I would just like to add a short comment adding to the OP's original comment concerning interface design as an end user. I have already posted this in Vortex comments but wanted too clarify it a little more.

 

Yesterday was a frustrating day of trying to keep Vortex from CTDs. I have a broad mix of about 30 mods installed while learning how it all works for both SSE and FO4. In SSE, SkyUI worked poorly and new file saves would CTD. In game, I kept getting the error message that SSKE64 was out of date and needed replacement. I tried updating that package several times to no avail.

 

In one of the forums on SkyUI, they suggested for other people having similar problems to not start from within a manager, rather start the launcher from within the SSE game folder. I tried that and it was like new world, everything in the game, including SkyUI worked perfectly. Why the problem? Everything in web references suggested the way to start the game is use the small arrow icon in the upper left corner. It turns out the Vortex launch button does not go through SSKE64 like it appeared.

 

Ok, then how do I start via SSKE64 within Vortex? Uhhhh.. Where is the icon SSKE64? Uhhh.. Turns out, you can't see it at all until you change to the dashboard and it sits in the middle of a bunch of tools. I clicked on that icon and SSE started up and everything in the game worked perfectly.

 

If I'm having this problem, then others more recent to the modding world might also and not have much patience.

 

My suggestion is place a copy of the link to SSKE64 on the normal game box just under the regular start arrow. That way people can decide which to use when, or otherwise when SSKE64 is known to be installed, route the normal start button through that. At least something that says where to find SSKE64 to play the game.

 

Other than that, Vortex is looking very good as a future replacement for NMM.

[pacfish]

@UhlanB76 - issues related to this button - you have to set the default functionality to first find the script extender, then set that option as the default through the dashboard, even though there are 3 locations where the image of the game you are trying to manage can be - the one you want can be accidentally removed the UI without any indication as to where or how to bring it back, but apparently it's located in the first tab of settings at the bottom half (below the white line) titled "starter". Once that is on, you'll need to add the tool button if SKSE / F4SE then refer back to step 1 to make sure everything is done right.

Once you made it past all that nonsense, purposely made confusing to mimic how difficult it actually is for "console modders", you should be able to start the game of your choice with the tiniest of buttons in the upper right hand corner. Though I still experience more CTDs using that then I do with MO for FO4. I haven't tried SSE because I don't want to "import my MO2" stuff because profiles don't seem to actually be file injections, have a way to edit the ini files (even though it has a setting for it), nor have a clear indication as to what save directory belongs to the profile (it's a string of random letters and numbers).

 

But I figured I would give them a break with my "suggestions" since I can be .... annoying in doses greater than 10 minutes.

 

We won't go into the difficulty of actually installing a mod with the various tabs you have to flip back and forth to verify things actually got installed and activated (even with the auto enable feature turned on) or the fact that you can't resize fomod boxes (to view images better or read text in a meaningful way.

 

Protip, don't use BethINI for FO4. It breaks the game.

[pacfish]

Apparently I'm not allowed to post images but I was going to attempt to troll less while still making a point

 

Left menu [GENERAL\SETTINGS] -> Interface tab -> DASHLET (bottom) -> Make sure Starter has a green checkbox.

DASHBOARD -> Look for the game launcher FO4Edit, Loot, FNIS all came displayed by default in mine.

If F4SE is not present click on "Add Tool"

If it is present, click on the 3 stacked menu button (typically called a hamburger menu, but this isn't even a slider) select "Edit"

Make sure the binary is pointing to F4SE.exe located in your game directory. "Target: C:\Program Files (x86)\Steam\steamapps\common\Fallout 4\f4se_loader.exe", if you want an icon, F4SE actually has one built into the exe file, set the icon target to the same location.

 

Click on the not even slider menu button of F4SE, and set as primary. Now when you start the game from the "Starter" main graphic or that tiny play button at the top, F4SE will launch. Your mods will work fine.

I recommend enlarging the window so that you can find the not even a slider menu button.

 

You seem like a really smart guy who understands how to apply this knowledge to Skyrim. However, if you're not, please post here again so everyone knows that average joe really doesn't understand what is going on and why it doesn't work. You look like an idiot and I look like a genius. It's a compromise I'm willing to make. I'll give instructions for Skyrim because we are all trying to be helpful here <3

[UhlanB76]

Thanks for the info on the buttons. I will take a look at those. Below are comments I posted elsewhere concerning Vortex and info videos on youtube:

(Sorry about the highlights - couldn't get rid of them)

------------------------------------------------------------

 

Thanks for all of these videos on Vortex - they helped me a lot in correcting some install errors I made. I have a few comments to add concerning NMM, MO2 and Vortex. I started with NMM a couple years ago for use with Skyrim SE and Fallout 4. Late last year I changed over to MO2 for both and have swapped back in forth, but mostly MO2. I began using Vortex recently when it became available more generally. My comments are flavored by a network connection through my cell phone hot spot that is very limited.

 

NMM notes

I am most familiar with this and it has worked very well for me most times. There can be problems when trying to delete/remove mods or plugins. The profile system seems to be based only on the mods configuration aspect, not the player so have to keep track of what character goes with which game. One thing I like a lot is that when you download a mod, it includes the descriptive info from the website that can be viewed later.

 

MO2 notes

This has worked very well for me and has lots of flexibility for the end user but initial setup can be daunting. I really like the profile system here as I can just start a game and it already combines the player and game items. However, it does not automatically include the web info for mods, so requires another access to have it included. Sometimes I have to refer back to NMM quickly to review that info. Deleting mods usually works well but there can be issues. The virtual folders seem to work very well in protecting mods and game files.

 

Vortex notes

Thanks to your videos, I corrected the locations of both SSE and FO4 files. I really like how easy it is to both install and remove mods (this particularly) plus archives. The drag and drop of the rule assignments seems to work very well when dragging down the screen. At a lower screen and trying to drag up can be frustrating as it may not roll the screen up. Otherwise the rule assignments and priority settings seem convenient and work well. Again, virtual folders are a real godsend here as I prefer to keep these games clean by removing stuff, rather than having multiple variants in place. (note: not during games but after completed for cleanup) I wonder what the profile system will be here.

 

General info

I could have used all those descriptions earlier. In both NMM and MO2 I lost a few hundred mods during initial setup because of terms like delete, archive and disable. I never download a mod directly into a manager anymore. Instead, there are specific folders in my download directory where every file is saved via a manual download. The mods can be installed from file when needed and the entire directory can be saved to external drives.

 

There is a problem that sometimes arises when copying data in Windows, any version. The 'file name' is not actually what one usually thinks, like 'Greatmod-zip'. For Windows that file name actually starts with the drive letter so it would be 'F:\newmods\Greatmod-zip'. There is a maximum length to this name of about 255 characters. You can easily exceed that limit by the time you reach the bottom of some game directories. The result is that some files cannot be copied because of the accumulated length in the name. I have lost several 100's of MBs that way in the past

[pacfish]

highlights - select everything and click on the "eraser" looking button at the top left of the editing features (second button). If that doesn't work, chance the color of the font to be "automatic". It's the button next to the "Size" drop down. If you're still having issues with it, click on the gear icon on the far right of the buttons you've been pressing. Toggle the top option, then copy and paste everything again. One of these is bond to work.

 

That's way too many steps to VERIFY that everything is going to work correctly. And I'm sorry.

 

MO and MO2 lack a clear understanding as to where mods go when you download with manager or how to get them active because it was a very small area on the screen that said "downloads". A youtube video typically fixes this entire process. MO and MO2 don't give clear instructions to what "overwrite" is or how to deal with it, not really an issue for "basic modders". Another issue is that "Sync" never worked.

MO / MO2 also download the contents from the description page. Though it's not immediately visible, right clicking on the mod in the left pane and selecting info -> then you have a plethora of tabs. As long as the ID was kept when installing the mod (it's the string of numbers at the end of the file name) it will pull the site text just like NMM (not every mod needs special instructions, but those that do can still be viewed).

 

Vortex rules can be edited and enforced by default in a separate window with a really confusing graphic. It exists, not sure where I found it, but it also requires you to set up what these mods are, it's not pulling the information from anywhere - yet Loot manages to figure most of this stuff out just fine Vortex does not.

 

Descriptions for what these buttons do in vortex is a must. A lot of my "request for features" seem to already exists but don't actually have a clear indication as to how to use them. And if you read this growing thread thoroughly, downloading manually seems to be the best way to go since my IT solution is "too hard" to implement. Nevermind that the site doesn't function AT ALL if javascript is disabled and could actually be used to bypass Tor and VPNs information to track download information.

 

If you're on Windows 10, give this article a read -> https://mspoweruser.com/ntfs-260-character-windows-10/ if you're on some other version, tell me and I'll find the proper workaround for your path limit.

[Grestorn]

 

Vortex rules can be edited and enforced by default in a separate window with a really confusing graphic. It exists, not sure where I found it, but it also requires you to set up what these mods are, it's not pulling the information from anywhere - yet Loot manages to figure most of this stuff out just fine Vortex does not.

 

 

 

I guess you're talking about the plugin 'groups' dialog?

 

The one you'll find in the plugins tab by clicking on the "Manage Groups" button on the top?

 

That's not meant for rules between plugins, that's meant to set the sorting order for plugin groups. And that's a LOOT feature, which Vortex just provides an easier tool for, to manipulate them. The groups were replacing the much less flexible plugin priorities.

[pacfish]

Grestorn, I'm just going to point out that you've "corrected" me a few times on things that lack documentation and aren't straight forward due to them being the first time a feature has been done like this in NMM ("90%"), MO ("7%"), and in this case Loot. None of this is "easier" - because people HATE learning new things especially when it's drastically different. I have not installed Outlook 365 for a client that did not hate it at first. Unfortunately, I don't talk to these people on a regular and don't know if they still hate it or when it started to grow on them. I also don't know how often they would call IT to try and resolve an issue because they couldn't figure it out.

 

Loot takes 2 clicks -> sort -> apply. Because everything gets set as "default" by this system. To edit the inflexible master list for your pc, groups are right there in main. load after works and has an example (because Fallout 4.esm is right there and greyed out - so you can't F it up), and all the tools have documentation, tooltips, and or an example.

In contrast, if I want groups for loot in Vortex, I need to know what it is I'm editing and why - You say it's a loot feature made easier... What the hell is up with this very confusing graphic then? Why can't I remove groups from this graphic? It's confusing because the arrows cross over at certain points for absolutely no reason.

I can set rules for what content gets loaded before or after specific mods however the text box for it is confusing. I have the name of the mod at the top, a drop down of "load before", "load after", and "conflict with" in another totally separated area followed by the name of the mod, and a "versioning" drop down which. If you were to read this like a sentence like I tried to do, the divider at the top makes my eyes focus solely on the content in the body. "load before what?". If you restructure the sentence to make sense due to the lack of indirect objects it reads "load [conflicting mod] after [version]", now I can't even remember which mod I clicked on because I'm trying to make sense of this poor sentence structure. Oh it's at the top of this window. Okay now it's starting to make sense. Except there's too much damn white space here and the text for the TITLE should be larger. These rules are bi-directional and don't apply the reverse rule to the other mod. Because of this, it's easier to setup infinite loops with just 2 mods if the user isn't paying attention, vortex won't warn you about it, Loot at least realizes the conflict when you sort them and can find larger circles.

 

So what about Loot is more difficult than using Vortex?

[Grestorn]

First of all, you're ranting once again. I'm trying to help you, but you don't make this feel appreciated.

 

Secondly, Vortex is still in beta, so of course the documentation is lacking.

 

Thirdly, LOOT is in no way easier to use, quite the contrary, if you try to set up rules and stuff in there. Don't tell me that it's easier to use if you just use it for sorting... because THAT's even much easier in Vortex, since you don't even have to click a button for that - it does it all by itself.

 

Fourthly, there's no reason to deal with the groups if you don't even know what they're for. They're an advanced feature for people who want to sort plugins into different classes - if their default classes (or groups) as defined in the LOOT's masterlist aren't sufficient for whatever reason.

 

Fifthly, this "hate of change" is something I can understand on one hand - but I despise it all the same on the other. Because something has been someway for a long time, that doesn't mean that it cannot be done in a better way. And people fighting change are the software developers natural enemy. Yes, I say that without an exaggeration or bad feeling. Software is about evolving, and people fighting this process are working against me, the software developer.

 

Having said that, I realize that while getting older (getting 49 next month), I start to fall into the same trap myself. See the discussion some postings ago with Tannin about programming models. Sometimes I feel like I'm losing contact with the newest developments in software myself. But I realize that this is MY fault and I try to fight this, even though it becomes more and more difficult with every year.

[pacfish]

Short and sweet version:

Text lacks tone, sorry.

You shouldn't correct people. The monitor being called a computer is now referred to as the computer. It's hard for me not to do this -- Vortex is in Alpha. You're right it's in beta, but I'm also right that it's in alpha. There's no point in arguing about this.

 

When I installed Vortex, vortex did not automatically sort my mods. I used loot to check, 4 of the 12 were misplaced, oddly in the order I installed them. I have since figured out how to have this not be the case and vortex is now easier, but loot told me that vortex was wrong at first.

 

Why were advanced loot features prioritized before basic user experience? It's not a rhetorical question if 90% of the user base is using NMM.

 

Loot hides these advance features in that menu, while vortex puts them in my face. Now I can click on them and muck everything up. Seems like a disaster waiting to happen.

 

Hate for change, I read both your posts awhile back and responded to it. It doesn't matter what you use as long as you use the same consistent style throughout and the program is secure/safe, libraries only make some things easier. IRS needs an update, but their software has been running fine otherwise for eons. I would LOVE to get a job updating this old tech but I lack some requirements they and other employers want before giving an interview. If that doesn't float your boat maybe you can still get into Standford's ML course offered through Coursena (they offer it every few months and it's free).

 

Happy early birthday. Stop telling everyone how old you are, they might be ageist.