Who are the "Good Guys" in this war?

[imperistan]

No I cannot, because the game provides precious little information about the Great War.

 

Yeah, only that play-by-play that is the book "The Great War".

 

When have I ever argued otherwise?

 

Makes me wonder how you think you can legitimately criticize my argument for speculation when yours hinges on the same thing.

[Kraeten]

Yeah, only that play-by-play that is the book "The Great War".

 

A book that mentions little besides the most influential events of the war. Army composition etc are all left to the imagination. We don't even know how many legions the Empire possessed at the time.

 

Makes me wonder how you think you can legitimately criticize my argument for speculation when yours hinges on the same thing.

 

The only reason I've taken pains to criticize your argument, is because you've tried to make it appear as something more than speculation. I'm sorry, but it isn't.

Edited June 23, 2012 by Kraeten

[MacSuibhne]

I would like to see some evidence that the Empire has been rebuilding.

It's just common sence. Country has been crushed by war once finished it starts to rebuild. There oportunity for profit everywhere, so there are many traders from the world coming, economy starts to grow once again.

Aside from private/foreight investors and traders as well as normal production the Empire still had money incoming from other provinces as well as Eastern Empire Trading Company profits.

 

It's common sense?! Maybe 'cuz it "says so in the good book"? I haven't been to Cyrodil, I don't know how the economy is doing but economies are not going to defeat the Thalmor unless the Empire intends to get into a bidding war with them.

 

Again, I'd like to see evidence that he Empire is markedly stronger than it was after the Great War. I'm not asking for proof positive, just some indicator that might lead a person to have a bit of hope....after 30 years of stagnation. I don't see it in Skyrim. I do, however, vaguely recall hearing grumbling and complaints among Imperial soldiers about morale.

 

The resources England devoted to the American Stormcloak Rebellion were far from insignificant and should have been sufficient to the job.

Or so they say in American schools. It's called patriotic education I believe.

 

That's sophistry. Read any objective history...read British history. The British Empire was the strongest military force on the face of the planet in the 18th century.

 

In 1776 the British began serious operations against the Continental army by sending 21,000 troops under General Howe to America--just one command and it augmented forces already there. These were highly trained, highly disciplined troops and well equipped.

 

Additionally at least 25,000 Tories (Imperial apologists) fought on the British side. Among them one of America's heretofore most respected generals--Gen. Benedict Arnold.

 

At the beginning of 1776 there were only 20,000 men under arms in the US and many of them were in militias--under equipped, under fed, poorly led and reluctant to fight.

 

And the British navy was already world renown esp. by comparison to what the once and future Stormcloaks could muster. Britain had over 130 men-of-war, some mounting over sixty guns (although admittedly many were deactivated or in poor shape), but America had none. As the war went on some of the smaller British ships were captured and put into service but the US relied mostly on privateers for the duration of the war.

 

Britain, like the Empire had no allies or friends. It's main reason for resisting American Independence was, like the Empire in Skyrim, to extract raw materials, resources and men to prop up their economy. If it hadn't been for the intervention of the French and others, well, who knows what would have happened.

Edited June 23, 2012 by MacSuibhne

[RighthandofSithis]

 

 

 

@RighthandofSithis

I agree, skyrim is rought (not considering dragons because rebelion occured before their arrival). But Thalmor has one huge strenght which is magic and Skyrim lacks in it a lot.

 

You can't really compare Skyrim/Hammerfell power to USSR/Alliance(mainly America), but Dominion/Third Reich is good power comparasion. More accurate would be France+England vs Germany which as we know failed horribly (before Hitler attacked they also believed they can win against him).

 

Yes, the Thalmor have magic, and the Nords don't. However, the Redguards (strongly against magic in their own right) held off the Thalmor, and the Nords managed to defeat the Falmer in the Merithic and First Eras, who where competent at magic (and guessing from encounters with them in Skyrim, they were adept at shock magic). Furthermore, a well trained shieldsman can negate magic attacks.

 

And war isn't just about who has the technologically (or in this case, magically) superior army, its largely about which general has the better tactical ability. A good Hammer and Anvil would finish off a Thalmor army.

 

And my point about the USSR and the Western Allies allying was intended to point out that even mortal enemies will unite when faced with a common foe.

 

:wallbash:

 

Wasn't talking about the UESP.

 

 

And besides that, the Imperial Libary is the best place for lore, even though its still in the process of taking in everything from Skyrim. UESP is better for information on the game part of the games. Stats, codes, walkthroughs, etc.

 

Some of the things in the Imperial Library are either fanfiction or opinionated.

 

For example, the UESP had used this as a sources on its White Gold Tower article, but pointed out that it was not an in game source.

http://www.imperial-library.info/content/nu-mantia-intercept

Edited June 23, 2012 by RighthandofSithis

[MacSuibhne]

 

Some of the things in the Imperial Library are either fanfiction or opinionated.

 

 

That said, The Great War is to be found in the Imperial Library and while written by an Imperial...and might even be open to "interpretation" depending on your point of view and propensity to interpret...contains a fair account of the strategic situation during and after the Great War.

Edited June 23, 2012 by MacSuibhne

[fraquar]

I can't think of a single war in history where a side won a major engagement (retaking the Imperial City) then sued for piece and gave up massive concessions. That pretty much defies common sense.

 

Reconstitute your remaining forces and defend till such time as you can go back on the offensive, because quite frankly the blow you put on the AD by retaking the Imperial City would suggest they themselves aren't going on the offensive anytime soon either.

[StormHammer81]

Arrrggghhh I'm so tiiired... Been working 9-10 hours a day this week. Filling lots and lots of sandbags to because the damn 18+ inches of rain keeps pouring in.

 

So... I think we can all agree TM2 is a d*ck. No matter what happened, at least for me, that dude's as good as dead. If he could retire, I might even let em, but either way he need to leave. Damage done, but hey, I'm an optimist after all. Not sure why exactly, but I am.

 

Now. Given the Thalmor's ahhh tactics and you know, just they crafty devils that they are, I have a theory I'm working on. Just a theory. It's possible. What if... the Thalmor let Hammerfell get away. Just sayin' what if the Thalmor saw that skittles face was going to give them what they wanted, then they learned that TM2 planned on renouncing Hammerfell. So, the Thalmor never wanted a treaty. Their main objective also shifted shortly after the war began, to completely destroying the Empire. They didn't think it was possible and well, you know the rest of that story.

 

At the peace treaty Elenwen is like hmmm "Now I know why we're here." So, the Thalmor were weakened from the devastating defeat at Red Ring but I'm sure they still had forces left, although they were no doubt greatly diminished. So, I'm thinking the Thalmor changed tactics, changed gears. See even if they won at Hammerfell, that's still not doing anything about the Empire, which could counterattack if the AD got any weaker from the Hammerfell conquest, if they had won.

 

My suspicion at this point, is that the Thalmor let Hammerfell go and are after something else. If they can't take the Empire, then there's no real point to taking Hammerfell. I think the Thalmor are waiting for the Empire to keep breaking up. From their standpoint, all they have to do is wait us out. Let us kill each, other, divide ourselves, then they make a day of it because by then and by not keeping the fire going against Hammerfell, the Thalmor would be strong enough to do some damage.

 

Remember, these guys are Mages. And the Camoran's are prob in bed with Dagon or almost certainly receiving support from Daedric authorities. The elves think in long term. :thumbsup:

 

We can all argue till were Blue in the face over why TM2 surrendered, but for whatever reason he did it, it was a mistake. Fate gave the man another chance when Hammerfell was like look, we love you guys, always been there for you, but this is WRONG and we will not stand fer it. Did TM2 listen, no he basically said to hell with you people.

 

Now, like I said, TM2 is at fault here but his Generals and advisers and most of the Empire didn't want this, hence the many years it took after several assassination attempts to get rid of TM2. Some of you folks are for Ulfric but if you think about it, TM2 and Ulfric have much in common. Oh yes. TM2 renounced Hammerfell because they went against *his* policies. Ulfric renounces the Empire, non-Nords, Elves and other Nords because they go against *his* policies. TM2 was more than likely most concerned with Cyrodil. Ulfric only cares about Skyrim. TM2 was in contact with the Thalmor, so was Ulfric after he was released. TM2's family took over things by force, so does Ulfric, killing the owners. TM2 was for splitting up the Empire and his family really didn't do a whole hell of a lot when the Empire was breaking up, same with Ulfric because Ulfric doesn't care about what happens outside of Skyrim, which I suppose is not necessarily a bad thing. However, the Thalmor do care and that is the problem.

 

You can't hold the entire Empire accountable for the evil done on us by TM2. Just like you can't hold all of Skyrim accountable for the crimes Ulfric has committed. The best thing for everyone, whether it be Skyrim or Empire or the other free provinces in Tamriel (for now) is to look to the future and not keep making this same mistakes. The Empire, Skyrim, everyone needs a new beginning here. Because sadly, what's done is done but that's life.

 

Getting rid of TM2 and Ulfric would be a start, along with Destroying Northwatch keep and killing enough Justicars until they get the message. Because after you destroy Northwatch keep, everyone's like "lol the Thalmor got knocked down a peg hahahah."

 

One last point. Ulfric says something interesting in one of his speeches. He's like now we're going to have to fight abroad huyuck Which is basically him going against what he said originally about Oh the soldiers are dying on foreign soil blah blah blah So which is it, no dying on foreign soil or now that my a$$ has power were going to die on foreign soil. Don't be at all surprised now, if Ulfric sends his little crew out fighting Imperials. Ah-hah!!! Oh yes, and in that day I'm sure they'll have an excuse for that too. Well, uhhh Titus Mede adircka dircka blah blah blah Talos, this los, that los.

 

The man's dead by then! I think if that every was to happen, I mean, for me seeing the lie from Ulfric is Crystal clear but by then it would be blatenly obvious that Ulfric is doing the bidding of the Thalmor. Then the Redguards yeah, we're going to get them now and uhh... Well why they haven't threatened us? Oh yeah uhhh hey Galmar group huddle... Oh yeah it's because Titus Mede, Talos this, Skyrim that, Titus Mede.

 

Kind of reminds me of that Family Guy episode where the wife was running for Mayor, she answered every question with 9/11. 9-11, 9/11, 9/11. I would also LOVE to know what he meant by, well we're going to remake Skyrim into what she was before. Ahh yes I see. So, roughly 60% of Skyrim (The Imperial Side) has good infrastructure, good economy, nice folks, good roads, well defended, rule of law (Even if u don't like it). The Stormcloak side is a mess. You have to judge a King not just based on how he does in War but how he governs. Their cities are s*** except for Riften but there is another story which explains that. Ulfric is ruining Windhelm and Eastmarch again, BECAUSE OF HIS POLICIES. I wonder what will be left of Skyrim once he's finished with it. Once he's satisfied that he can force everyone to do thing his way. Again, just like Titus Mede II, trying to force everyone to do things his way and then acting like a little biotch about it when someone calls him on it. No different. Jarl B and some of the others are trying to do right by theirs and survive, Ulfric won't leave things alone. Like some other people I once knew.

Edited June 24, 2012 by bigmagy1981

[sukeban]

Remember, these guys are Mages. And the Camoran's are prob in bed with Dagon or almost certainly receiving support from Daedric authorities. The elves think in long term. :thumbsup:

 

We can all argue till were Blue in the face over why TM2 surrendered, but for whatever reason he did it, it was a mistake. Fate gave the man another chance when Hammerfell was like look, we love you guys, always been there for you, but this is WRONG and we will not stand fer it. Did TM2 listen, no he basically said to hell with you people.

 

One last point. Ulfric says something interesting in one of his speeches. He's like now we're going to have to fight abroad huyuck Which is basically him going against what he said originally about Oh the soldiers are dying on foreign soil blah blah blah So which is it, no dying on foreign soil or now that my a$$ has power were going to die on foreign soil. Don't be at all surprised now, if Ulfric sends his little crew out fighting Imperials.

 

So, roughly 60% of Skyrim (The Imperial Side) has good infrastructure, good economy, nice folks, good roads, well defended, rule of law (Even if u don't like it). The Stormcloak side is a mess. You have to judge a King not just based on how he does in War but how he governs. Their cities are s*** except for Riften but there is another story which explains that. Ulfric is ruining Windhelm and Eastmarch again, BECAUSE OF HIS POLICIES.

 

1. I dusted off Oblivion and kept eavesdropping in the taverns: "I hear that Daedra worship is gaining popularity in the Summerset Isles... these are indeed troubled times in the land of the Altmer." I'm certainly no loremaster, but I wouldn't put it by the Thalmor to be in league with various Princes.

 

2.. TM2 surrendered because he was fooled and desperate. If memory serves me, the Battle of the Bulge was Hitler's last ditch attempt at ending WW2. His objective was to inflict a crippling blow on the Allied armies and then come to them with peace terms on equal footing. He knew that he wouldn't win the war at that point, but he gambled that one great victory might leave his regime intact and with Germany still holding some of its conquests. I imagine the Red Ring battle to be sort of like this, one last ditch attempt to achieve parity rather than victory. TM2 messed up in this because he achieved his objective (unlike Hitler), but failed to actually achieve peace on equal terms.

 

3. I don't even think that TM2 was that bad of a guy. All things considered, he did relatively well given the ridiculous 100X Pearl Harbor situation that was handed to him. As a warlord and general, his skills should not be questioned, but his shortcomings lie in political affairs. I give him credit for allowing Hammerfell to leave. He even allowed portions of his Legions to stay behind and fight with the Redguards in a guerrilla campaign against the Thalmor, inflicting damages on them indirectly. I just do not understand why he did not apply this same methodology to Skyrim. If he lets Skyrim go without bloodshed then the two states are easy allies. All Skyrim wants is self-determination; if self-determination were given by the Empire without violence, Skyrim would still view the Empire quite favorably for honoring their wishes.

 

4. Larger states don't automatically mean better states. Sometimes countries just become too large for all of their constituent peoples to live together in harmony, as it is difficult to align the interests of all peoples within one government. Look at any colonial empire, look at the USSR, heck, look at the United States. Fantasy empires present an idealist's view of people living together, when in reality, empires ruled by promoting one ethnic group's (the "home province") interests over those of all the rest. In the best case, that just means that peripheral regions are politically ignored, in the worst case it means that they are suppressed and mined for their resources and/or labor. The Empire wants gold/silver and soldiers from Skyrim. It obviously does not care about what Skyrim has to say about being ruled against its will, as a sort of general strip mine and military spawning pool for the Empire. That is not equality, but is exploitation and repression.

 

In any colonial scenario there are always a few "upper class native" families/clans whatever that make friends with the colonists and use that position to become "king of the ant hill" over their longtime ethnic rivals. Colonists, if they know what they are doing, are only too happy to accept this assistance, as it gives them an "in" with the local population as well as deflects some of the negative externalities of their rule onto the collaborative local chiefs. This model fits Skyrim like a glove, with the Jarl of Solitude playing the "cooperative chieftain" that represses the outlying provinces in the name of the larger Imperial state. Other Jarls, bought with chests of Imperial gold, serve as the local "satraps" enforcing Imperial interests over those of their own local people.

 

5. Finally, how do you know that the condition of Windhelm has anything to do with Ulfric's policies (we do not even know what such "policies" you are talking about). We never saw Windhelm when it was ruled by Ulfric's father. From a lore perspective, it seems as though Windhelm (and the Eastern side of the map in general) has been deteriorating ever since Solitude seized political power after Ysgramor's royal line died out.

 

I refer you again to the Washington DC subway system versus the BART system of the California Bay Area. Areas geographically closer to the seat of centralized government power WILL receive far more largesse from that government. This holds true also for the most "loyal" regions of the country, given a particular government. It is a fiction to think that all areas of a state receive equal resources from its central government. Resources are a means of ensuring control, and why, from a ruler's point of view, would you want to reward regions for anything other than eager submission? When the central government says "jump" local political bosses better say "how high?" as otherwise they are likely to miss out on the goodies. The Western holds of Skyrim have better infrastructure because for hundreds of years they have been only too enthusiastic to jump whenever Solitude demanded that they do so.

 

Dispensing resources is not egalitarian or meritocratic, it is strictly "what have you done for me lately?"

 

EDIT:

 

6. I think that Ulfric is obviously referring to taking the fight TO the Thalmor, not the any of the other Imperial (or former Imperial) provinces. He knows what the Thalmor are and what they want to do (he was their prisoner after all), and he is sick of watching the Empire sit on its hands and practice its whittling. Maybe he figures that if he is the one to strike the first blow for the human cause, that everybody else will be more or less forced to back him up. He knows that the Thalmor are only growing stronger and that it is unlikely that the Empire has any serious plans for attacking. He knows that there is a short "window of opportunity" to attack the Thalmor, and he doesn't want to waste it.

 

As for HOW he would go about attacking the Thalmor... lol, I have no idea. I doubt he intends to send longboats to the Summerset Isles. Attacking Valenwood seems like the best course of action, but that is far, far from Skyrim. But who knows, maybe Ulfric intends to ally with the Redguards and set sail for Valenwood or the Isles from Hammerfell? Or else just march through Anvil and dare the Empire to stop them.

Edited June 24, 2012 by sukeban

[StormHammer81]

Ahh but we do know it is the result of his policies and we also know there is bad blood between Hammerfell and Skyrim. TM2 was not a good Emperor at all. He should not have just let go of Hammerfell or surrendered. If Abe Lincoln had you're attitude there would be no US.

[sukeban]

Ahh but we do know it is the result of his policies and we also know there is bad blood between Hammerfell and Skyrim. TM2 was not a good Emperor at all. He should not have just let go of Hammerfell or surrendered. If Abe Lincoln had you're attitude there would be no US.

Not gonna lie, bigmagy, I would have been 100% okay if Abe HAD let the South go its own way :-)

 

But where is this proof about Ulfric's policies? We never really hear much about Ulfric really doing anything in terms of actual governance (which is one of my main critiques of the man), there just aren't enough lines for his character. He obviously neglects his duties as a Jarl, but we have no idea as to how things used to be before he ascended Ysgramor's throne.

 

Joking aside, bigmagy, but there has been so much blood spilled in useless colonial wars through the ages, wouldn't all peoples have been so very much better off if the ascendant colonial powers of the time had just said "whatevz" and allowed their colonies to leave on their accord. So much animosity averted, so many lives saved. No Revolutionary War, no Simon Bolivar, no Mexican Revolution, no Philippines, no Sinn Fein, no Gandhi, no Algeria, no Vietnam, no Afghanistan, no ridiculous African conflagrations, no (or much reduced) problems in the Middle East. Remember the Canadian Revolution, you know, the great war where they defeated the English in order to gain their independence? Er, wait... that never happened. England just let them go, let them go free as an independent nation. Ditto for Aus, ditto for NZ. And you know how all of these countries vehemently hate England for letting them go... er, that never happened either.

 

Sometimes states just have to know when to cash it in when it comes to territories that they cannot and should not seek to control. Self-determination is the right of all people, even in Tamriel.

Edited June 24, 2012 by sukeban