Who are the "Good Guys" in this war?

[robanybody2000]

"(Jarl B is indeed a good man, even though he is bribed by the Imperials with chests of gold)" - I think that shows good skills in economics. Keeping Whiterun on the thin line between the war and making a pile of cash out of it. It is exactly how a competent jarl should act. The Empire is paying him and will defend the city if needed. (so security and money at the same time :thumbsup: ).

[BrettM]

The entire Markarth Incident was illegal in every respect and transformed Ulfric into a Master Butcher. The then "Reachmen" reclaimed their land (the 10 kingdoms) and for 2 years had a peaceful, strong kingdom in the Reach. The Empire was working with them to establish a treaty when the Jarl Ingman's sons made a deal with the Devil. Neither the Jarl or Torygg had any knowledge of what was really going on until after the attack on Markarth had already started.

 

Read the Bear of Markarth (If you haven't already) it and other sources talk about how Ulfric murdered, raped and pillaged his way through that Kingdom. He put Men, women, children of all ages to the sword for not coming to his aid when the city finally fell. Ulfric and the Stormcloaks killed so many innocent people it was like the Rawandan genocide and it's because of this the Reachmen went crazy over it and became the Forsworn we all know and love today. The Empire actually did give in to Ulfric's demands and for a time allowed Talos worship. Then, not too long thereafter, the Thalmor found out about his (like they didn't already know) and used this fcked up situation to gain a foothold in Skyrim.

The Bear of Markarth, written by an Imperial, is not exactly an unbiased source. I have no doubt that the Empire was more than happy to regain full control over the Reach, and they were only trying to treat with the Forsworn because the Legion didn't have the strength to reconquer it themselves. Ulfric did them a huge favor, and the Empire had no problem repaying him by agreeing to allow Talos worship since the Thalmor didn't yet have a notable presence in Skyrim. (Yes, it provided the excuse the Thalmor were looking for to establish a foothold in Skyrim. But, the Thalmor would have found -- or created -- that excuse in any event. The Dominion plans for the long term and it was inevitable that they would turn their attentions to Skyrim. They had a lot on their plate at the end of the War or they would have been in Skyrim sooner.)

 

Why do I say this? One of Ulfric's complaints is that the Empire is bleeding Skyrim of resources, including the wealth of the Reach. It would seem that this complaint is factual, because we know that the Empire wanted Cidhna mine so badly that Tullius sent an agent with orders to get the deed by hook or crook, stealing it if necessary. They were so greedy for silver that getting some of the output of that mine was not enough; they wanted it ALL. How much of that silver do you think a treaty with the Forsworn would have given them? I have no doubt that the Empire was quite pleased with Ulfric for retaking the Reach for them.

 

The author of The Bear of Markarth is trying to spin the situation to place all the blame on Ulfric and paint the Empire as the innocent victim of a blackmailing war criminal. Just like The Talos Mistake, also written by an Imperial, it is a transparent attempt to suck up to the Thalmor and portray themselves as good little clients who will follow the party line. Blech.

 

As for the bit about the Forsworn being peaceful exemplars of sweetness and light during their two-year rule, I don't believe it for a minute. There are plenty of Reachmen around Markarth who don't exactly find the Forsworn and their cause palatable. Talk to the proprietor of the Hag's Cure or the assistant at the Markarth stables. The Forsworn committed their own atrocities during that time against Nord families who had lived peacefully in the Reach for generations. Perhaps they were living on land that their ancestors stole from the ancestors of the Forsworn hundreds or thousands of years ago. So what? By that standard, if the Dwemer returned they would have the right to wipe out Nord and Forsworn alike as trespassers.

 

In fact, I was a Stormcloak myself until I heard the two of them talking about torching Whiterun and running a sword thru Jarl B's gullet. For me, that was it. We're here for freedom and all that cushy stuff and now we're going to go attack a city... that is free... and yet, is Imperial... just because the Jarl and people there don't agree with you? Am I doing this so Ulfric can be High King or? Oh no, in fact hell no. Ulfric's ethics seem somewhat selective. Jarl B is however, a good, generous and enlightened man and Empire or otherwise, I will follow where he leads.

Balgruuf, as much as I admire the man, was a fence-sitter. (I blame this on his steward, who is a regular Wormtongue, always counseling inaction. Do nothing! This will blow over! It has nothing to do with us! Sending guards to Riverwood will be seen as a provocation in Falkreath!) He believed the Empire deserved support despite his hatred of the WGC. He admitted the justice of the view that he should be supporting freedom for his people. So he tried to walk the razor's edge and make no commitment to either side. He was getting away with it only because the Thalmor had not yet turned their attention to Whiterun, having bigger fish to fry first. But he was a fool if he thought his balancing act could be maintained forever.

 

In the end he made his decision based on his personal distaste for Ulfric and a view of the Empire that came out of old history books. The Empire he praised died with Martin Septim and the corpse was buried with the WGC, but he couldn't see it. He made a mistake and either paid for it immediately (if the Stormcloaks win) or will pay even more dearly for it later (if the Empire wins).

Edited June 20, 2012 by BrettM

[MacSuibhne]

From the Lore:

 

"Although Arrianus wrote that Ulfric initiated the Nord militia on his own initiative, Jarl Igmund contradicted Arrianus' claim and revealed that the Empire gathered a Nord militia to overthrow the independent kingdom of the Reach with the promise of permitting the free worship of Talos."

[Deleted4666244User]

then Alduin comes in and destroys Solitude/Windhelm (depending on whether you side with Legion/rebels, respectively) Edited June 20, 2012 by Guest

[RighthandofSithis]

The Imperial cities are totally different, kind of a business atmosphere but that's good!

 

As a communist, I would disagree with you there. But that is not what this forum is about.

 

In fact, I was a Stormcloak myself until I heard the two of them talking about torching Whiterun and running a sword thru Jarl B's gullet. For me, that was it. We're here for freedom and all that cushy stuff and now we're going to go attack a city... that is free... and yet, is Imperial... just because the Jarl and people there don't agree with you? Am I doing this so Ulfric can be High King or? Oh no, in fact hell no. Ulfric's ethics seem somewhat selective. Jarl B is however, a good, generous and enlightened man and Empire or otherwise, I will follow where he leads.

 

Sadly, that's war. Particularly civil war. It ruins lives, and families.

 

But its the nature of class struggle. The Nordic aristocracy wishes to and liberate itself from the Empire. Its the way history is. Look at France and Russia (albeit, this is neither a bourgeois nor proletarian revolution).

 

Class struggle is by its very nature, violent.

 

Furthermore, the Empire is dying. Ever since the Oblivion Crisis, the empire has been collapsing. When an Empire collapses for that long, its dead.

Edited June 20, 2012 by RighthandofSithis

[StormHammer81]

@robanybody2000

 

Not accurate according to lore. Any other Jarl, it's possible. Jarl B however, is independent. That's kind of a malicious thing to say about a Jarl who is really sticking his thumb up at *both* the Empire and the Stormcloaks, especially when the Jarl allows Freedom of Religion, Freedom of Speech, Allows Heimskr to conduct services in his house and doesn't allow the Empire to garrison troops in his city. If the Jarl were taking Imperial coin then Tullius could have just ordered him to allow the Empire into his city but no. Because that's not true, the Jarl is an HONORABLE MAN who is not taking bribes or taking SH*T from anyone. Jarl B is STANDING UP for himself and his people. Funny you Stormcloak folks would choose to attack Jarl B. Because he doesn't need the Empire or the Stormcloaks and his people have freedom of speech and religion. True he leans toward the Empire but that is because for a long time, he an Ulfric have not seen eye to eye on everything and now I can see why. The Jarl B believes in taking care of his own and not imposing his will on everyone else around him, he's not oppressive, unlike Ulfric, who wants to force everyone into doing what he wants, much like the Thalmor.

 

@MAC

 

Well, you can believe whoever you want, the catch here is eventually the Empire had to take responsibility and so it's going to fall on them one way or another because Jarl Ingman is Imperial either way. However, Ulfric took the deal a couple of steps further and started murdering and destroying everyone who would not take his side or join the Stormcloaks campaign in Markarth. No one ever told him to commit genocide, apparently it was just in his nature.

 

@BrettM

 

Right, well that's your take on things, like I have mine and so I respect that. Although it's not that Jarl B was as much a fence-sitter as much as he didn't want to get involved or have any part in a needless, pointless War. He openly admits, I'm on the side of Whiterun. And that's how it should be, he's providing freedom and protection and good economy for his people and he's taking care of sh*t. Which is how it should be everywhere. Jarl B like myself, is not out to save the world or force others into anything. He's just trying to live and be the best man he can. Hehehe (Not talking about anyone on here) It's his neighbors that have the problems and they keep trying to drag Whiterun down with them.

 

Another thing, Cidna mine is run by the Silverbloods, not the Empire. Fruthermore, heh, Markarth and ALL that Silver are the FIRST thing Tullius puts on the table at the negotiation. Yeah. Tullius even against the other Imperial reps present is willing to give up Markath and it's Silver in the name of peace. You left that part of the story out. And here's another part you left out:

 

"Margret, an undercover operative of the Imperial Legion, was sent to Markarth by General Tullius to retrieve the deed to the mine. The Legion feared the Forsworns and Silver-Bloods were Stormcloak sympathizers, who wanted to exploit the violent criminals imprisoned in the mine and use them against the Empire." Tullius doesn't want the Silver he's more interested in the corruption and exploitation of the workers in said mine. And as it turns out, Tullius was right.

 

Also, The Reachmen became the Forsworn AFTER Ulfric's slaughter of them, which is still a strong memory in their hearts. Before then it was different. They were honorable and they were fair. And then Ulfric massacred them for power. Also, I don't think it's right to murder my neighbors in the name of the Almighty. I deal with my own problems.

 

@RighthandofSithis

 

Well, heh first of all, if you are a Communist than I really don't think you're someone to advise us on the economy. Because I have several friends from Russia, Chec and even a Greek friend and they told me all about the horrors that came out of Communism. Although I'll give you this, there are different flavors of Communism and to this day only China has ever been able to make it workout for good and Canada made Socialism work, but that's them too. Although they have their issues over their but I'm not Chinese. Europe and the US are dying from Socialist policies. We just can't keep paying for socialism and socialism is a cousin of Communism. I'm not a communist and I'm also not Capitalist. It's also too bad these damn Hospitals and CEOs are screwing people so bad over in the US. But I digress.

 

The Empire of Talos will only die if you let it by taking up with the Stormcloaks. Then I would agree, it's dead and that would be a tragedy. Then you would basically have (3) kingdoms competing against each other, which is exactly what the Thalmor want. The Empire has changed from what it was. It's not dying it's just a survivor of the changes taking place in Tamriel. For some reason, too many people view a loss of power as "Death". Not true. Sometimes loosing something is the best thing that can happen to you, although it may not seem so at that moment. The Empire of Talos is very much alive and fighting for it's life. If something is fighting for it's life than it's not Dead. Quite the opposite actually. Skyrim is much the same. Their fates are linked. If Skyrim dies, then the Empire dies. Granted though, there is much class struggle going on probably not just in Skyrim but throughout Tamriel in general.

Edited June 20, 2012 by bigmagy1981

[sukeban]

@bigmagy

 

Jarl B definitely does accept chests of Imperial gold, Stewart Avenicci himself says as much after you take over the city for the Stormcloaks. "I'm sure that all those chests of Imperial gold didn't hurt things either, eh?" is more or less exactly what he says. Jarl B doesn't deny it and just gets mad. Not his finest hour as a Jarl.

 

But, don't get me wrong, Jarl B is probably my second favorite Jarl in Skyrim, second only to Idgrod Raven-Crone, the Jarl of Morthal. Truth be told though, nearly every Jarl in Skyrim is a tool in one way or another, so that's not really that high of praise. Jarl B does have the luxury of not having Thalmor patrols taking place within Whiterun city, a luxury that other Imperial Jarls do not seem to share. He is thus not experiencing the true consequences of being allied with the Empire. Perhaps if the Thalmor were to insist that they be allowed into Whiterun and then started purging Heimskr, the Grey-Manes, Jarl B's brother, etc. he might suddenly begin to see what Ulfric was talking about with respect to leaving the Empire.

 

Jarl B is in a privileged position, but that position cannot possibly last forever (i.e. even with an Imperial CW victory). Sooner or later the Thalmor will want a tour of Dragonsreach and will have some interesting questions for his brother. Perhaps losing a blood relation will cause him to re-evaluate his decision to spurn Ulfric. Better yet, an Imperial victory means Thalmor purges in Dawnstar, Winterhold, Riften, and Windhelm. I am sure that all Nords in those cities would thank the Dovahkiin mightily.

 

TLDR; You've got rose-colored glasses when you're looking at Jarl B. He is a good Jarl, for sure, but he's also really, really lucky. And any gambler will tell you that sooner or later your luck runs out.

 

EDIT:

 

bigmagy -- Just remember that you can't take "The Bear of Markarth" as the gospel truth of the situation. It was written by an Imperial and is definitely pushing a certain (anti-Stormcloak) agenda. It is not an un-biased source. It might contain some factual material, but I would trust it about as much as I would trust "Nords Arise!" or "The Talos Mistake." Always take your sources with a grain of salt.

Edited June 21, 2012 by sukeban

[breakwind]

I reckon all the Jarls would have received gold. When asked about accepting the treaty with the Dominion, Balgruuf replied that we didn't have a choice, meaning the Jarls. Then Avenicci reminds him of the chests of gold, I take it that this was to buy the Jarls off, after all why would only Whiterun have received gold?

[tetradite]

Just off the subject for a minute.

 

"Jarl B" sounds like a Skyrim hip-hop artist/rapper.

 

plus 10 internets to anyone who can make a Jarl B rap video from Skyrim scenes.

Edited June 21, 2012 by tetradite

[StormHammer81]

LMAO

 

You know, there is a Video on YouTube where Jarl B is holding a big-a$$ party in Dragonsreach. Sight to see.

 

I honestly have no idea about the Chests of Gold but like someone else said on here, he's still got to be one Tough SOB because he's allowing Talos worship and freedom to speak out against the Empire in his city, which heh both of these are very much against Imperial policy.

 

Perhaps the "Chests of Gold" were tribute paid to him by the Empire for being friendly to Imperial traffic or who knows. Call it as you see it, but if this be the case, then he's hustling the Imperials and still doing things his way. Which are two very good traits that I admire in people. Hey, it's hell out there these days. However, I'm sure the Stormcloak Jarls are getting paid by Ulfric as well. In some way. I don't hold this against Jarl B because it didn't change who he is.

 

Chests of Gold or Not, clearly the Empire could not corrupt Jarl Balgruuf into enforcing the WGC.

Edited June 21, 2012 by bigmagy1981