Who are the "Good Guys" in this war?

[djinx187]

Hands down the Empie just because of the simple fact Ulfric was too easily bated in to attacking the wrong people first. I'm sorry but if my people are being captured and tortured those guys are the ones I would be going after not the guys who simply do not have the guts to do anything yet.(let alone having myself captured as happened to Ulfric). If you attacked everybody who just let things happen well you would be attacking people for a very long time and nothing would get solved. That point right there makes him unfit to lead.

 

One side we have the Empire who is afraid to act against the right people which makes the whole situation bad.

 

On the other side we have the Stormcloaks who are too quick to act out against somebody who really isn't their enemy and makes a bad situation worse. "A house divided against itself cannot stand." comes to mind.

 

 

At least if he would have started out with trying to remove the Thalmor from Skyrim first instead of the Empire he would have had more support and he could of gave the Empire a nice little shove in the right direction. He would have easily gain more support from the other jarls and the Empire really couldn't do jack about it. That would have done more for Skyrim's Independence then attacking your own kinsmen. What would the Empire do if that happened? Defend the Thalmor? Highly Doubt it. Attack the Thalmor while they are distracted? Possibly. Withdraw from Skyrim to let it fend for itself like Hammerfall did? That seems the most likly action to have happened which would have gotten Ulfric what he wanted anyway. The Empire out of Skyrim.

 

Honestly though who knows its all just conjecture.

 

Any outcome really seems better then civil war. Kill the guys who you know want to play the role of the Orkin man to anybody without pointed ears or kill your friends, family, allies, your kinsmen. Hmm yeah tough choice.

[MacSuibhne]

What would the Empire do if that happened? Defend the Thalmor? Highly Doubt it.

Any outcome really seems better then civil war. Kill the guys who you know want to play the role of the Orkin man to anybody without pointed ears or kill your friends, family, allies, your kinsmen. Hmm yeah tough choice.

 

 

What does the Empire do when you (the player) attack Thalmor patrols? If you are seen or it is known, a bounty is placed on your head. Isn't that, in a sense, defending the Thalmor? You're the bad guy and you've committed a crime. Clearly the Empire sides with the Thalmor, at the very least.

 

I agree that any outcome is better than Civil War but the worst outcome is the status quo of the last thirty years.

 

If the Empire would just give Skyrim its independence, they would make a friend (and potential ally) and create an entity that the Thalmor would have to deal with separately. And it would save Imperial men and resources that the Empire will desperately need when they finally confront the Dominion...thirty years from now.

Edited June 22, 2012 by MacSuibhne

[BrettM]

If Ulfric had started attacking Thalmor, the Empire's choices would be to resume the war, disavow Skyrim and let it go, or back up the Thalmor by taking action against their attackers.

 

There is zero chance that the Empire is going to resume the war. They haven't rebuilt the strength they lost during the Great War, and their position may be even weaker now than it was the day the WGC was signed because of the presence of Thalmor in Cyrodiil and the subsequent elimination of the Blades. Perhaps the Dominion has been bluffing about their ability to obliterate the Empire, but, if so, the Emperor fell for that bluff when he signed the treaty. Is he going to call them on it now, when he can't even be sure it is a bluff? If the Dominion has not been bluffing, then resuming the war would just be a quicker form of suicide than the slower death they face as a client state.

 

There is also zero chance that the Empire is going to disavow Skyrim as it did Hammerfell. The Empire is in an economic shambles and they can't afford to lose any more provinces. They are dependent on the resources and taxes they're getting out of Skyrim. If they weren't, then all they had to do was pull the Legion out of Skyrim instead of sending in more troops, and not a single legionnaire would have fallen to a Stormcloak blade. The Legion is not in Skyrim to help the jarls deal with bandits and dragons; they are there to support imperial interests.

 

Treaties have the force of law, so the Empire can't just stand by while imperial subjects -- the people of Skyrim -- violate an imperial treaty. If they won't let Skyrim go, then the only remaining choice is to enforce imperial law, which means fighting to defend the Thalmor and their rights under the treaty. If they did not, then Thalmor would have reason to claim a treaty violation and resume the war. The Empire must either fully support its treaties or repudiate them. There is no third option allowing them to stand by while some of their subjects violate it for them.

[SplaTt333]

The obvious bad guys are Thalmor. They aren't far from alyeds, one step from worshiping Daedra.

What Empire did was choice of smaller-evil, because it was either treaty and Thalmor's justicars or being conquered by Aldmeri Dominion. Do you think if Dominion'd rule over Tamriel life for Talos worshipers would be better than it is now? I doubt. So I'd sort them as:

Thalmor: Bad

Empire: good

Stormcloak: stupid

 

I mean if Empire as whole couldn't defeat Dominion how possibly could they loose to Nords them selves, divided and heavily wounded after fighting Empire in the first place? If they were smart they'd understand Empire had no choice but to sight treaty and gather all possible nord wariors to help Empire reconquering Mer land.

 

Also there is interesting long-term plan made by Thalmor I've noticed. They took over Elsweyr, inspired Black Marsh to leave empire and raid south Morrowind. After that when they signed the treaty they made these 2 important notes: 1. To forbid Thalos worshiping (they were sure this will start rebelion in Skyrim) and 2. Hammerfel to be independet (now they can strike them without being afraid of Empire's intervention).

They are separating provinces from empire one by one, while it's only chance to win is to assemble armies from all provinces under it's banners. Really clever.

[fraquar]

What logic are you following that those who harbor, tolerate and in some cases encourage bad guys to do their deeds - good guys? You lost me right there.

[SplaTt333]

I don't know how much you know about universee, but even in Skyrim itself its said very clear, that Empire LOST to Thalmor. They lost imperial City, most of Cyrodil. There were 2 options : give Thalmor SOME power (right to hunt for Talos worshipers) or get conquered and thus giving them ALL the power (right to kill or enslave anyone they want, maybe every Man).

This terms were only chance to gain more strenght (empire still has lots of manpower, but was not prepared for any assault onto them as there was no faction that could threat them before Dominion) and strike back after some time.

So long story short, empire is good because they oppose bad (even thought not fighting against them FOR NOW).

Here, take a look: Tamriel Factions 4th Era

 

Stormcloaks are stupid, because their only chance to really be free is to fight in one line with empire. They stand no chance against Dominion by them selves in full strenght (not saying after bloody looses in war with empire).

 

 

It's like soviets vs europe. Soviets will win against each european country, but have no chance against them all.

Edited June 22, 2012 by SplaTt333

[fraquar]

There were 3 options, KEEP FIGHTING.

 

Funny how Hammerfell is still independent (and was an Empire asset before the Empire caved) yet people seem to think the Empire had no choice but to get into bed with the Thalmor.

 

Umm, the Soviets couldn't conquer Hammerfell apparently........

Edited June 22, 2012 by fraquar

[SplaTt333]

Hammerfell is not independent because it is so strong, but because Thalmor is obviously focusing on Elsweyr and fueling the fire in Skyrim to futher weaken Empire and is not striking upon Hammerfell. Also arrival of the dragons has forced them to hold their horses a bit.

 

I don't know about your knoweagle of warfare but it seems rather thin. How could they keep fighting, when they was in defense at every front, lost most important economic/political/strategic center? They didn't had any army assembled that could strike back and didn't had the political influence to force provinces into joining the war with all they had nor did they had economical support needed to continue a war (Elsweyr, Hammerfell lost, most of Cyrodil conquered, Morrowind destoyed, Black March seceded, this leaves only High Rock economically unafected).

Edited June 22, 2012 by SplaTt333

[RighthandofSithis]

I don't know how much you know about universee, but even in Skyrim itself its said very clear, that Empire LOST to Thalmor. They lost imperial City, most of Cyrodil. There were 2 options : give Thalmor SOME power (right to hunt for Talos worshipers) or get conquered and thus giving them ALL the power (right to kill or enslave anyone they want, maybe every Man).

This terms were only chance to gain more strenght (empire still has lots of manpower, but was not prepared for any assault onto them as there was no faction that could threat them before Dominion) and strike back after some time.

So long story short, empire is good because they oppose bad (even thought not fighting against them FOR NOW).

Here, take a look: Tamriel Factions 4th Era

 

Stormcloaks are stupid, because their only chance to really be free is to fight in one line with empire. They stand no chance against Dominion by them selves in full strenght (not saying after bloody looses in war with empire).

 

 

It's like soviets vs europe. Soviets will win against each european country, but have no chance against them all.

 

 

On the contrary, I've previously made the point that the Stormcloaks would be able to combat the Thalmor.

 

Skyrim is a cold and mountainous land. That, in itself, is enough to put off any general. Throw in some saber cats, frostbite spiders, trolls and dragons, its essentially hell to invade. Remember, Talos won the Nords over, not defeated them.

 

Also, if Skyrim were independent, it would be able to enter into diplomatic relations with Hammerfell, a nation that after 20 years should be strong again (a new generation of warlike Redguards). Skyrim itself did not seem overly damaged by the civil war. Its stockpiles of resources seem to have depleted, but its infrastructure remains in tack.

 

And in the Event the Thalmor make a move against either of these states, it would be almost certain that they would assist each other. You make the comparison to the USSR. Did the USSR and the Western Allies like each other very much? But how was WW2 won?

 

Furthermore, I can't ignore your comment on the USSR.

 

Basically the West may make the upper hand, but if they did, they would soon face the same problem Hitler did. Russia is a vast nation with a hostile environment. In winter, they would freeze. In Summer, they would get bogged. And even if they overcame this obstacles, they would eventually over stretch their forces and supply lines, allowing the USSR to regroup.

[MacSuibhne]

empire is good because they oppose bad (even thought not fighting against them FOR NOW).

 

So let me get this straight...you're saying that after thirty years of the Empire being the Dominion's "backsteet boy" and apparently making zero headway in rebuilding their strength, the people of Skyrim should give up their aspirations for independence...independence from Imperial hypocrisy, independence from Thalmor oppression, tyranny, and arbitrary arrests, torture, and executions...so that the Empire can dick around for another thirty years with little, or no, hope (given its history) of ever finding the manpower, material or moral wherewithal to confront the Dominion?

 

In tenth century northern Europe--the rough technological and social equivalent of Skyrim--the average life expectancy was between 30 and 35 years. Of course it was considerably more among the aristocracy--the jarls and kings and their thanes and sycophants.

 

You honestly believe that the humble shoemaker living in Riften or Solitude or Whiterun should be content, even happy, to see his sons grow up and be dragged away by the Thalmor, his grandsons facing the same prospect, with no hope in sight...just empty promises thirty, forty, now fifty and sixty years old?

 

For what? Tell me again...this time with a straight face.

 

Stormcloaks are stupid, because their only chance to really be free is to fight in one line with empire. They stand no chance against Dominion by them selves in full strength (not saying after bloody looses in war with empire).

 

Tell that to George Washington and Samuel Adams and Thomas Paine as they confronted the greatest power on the face of the earth.

Edited June 22, 2012 by MacSuibhne