Who are the "Good Guys" in this war?

[BrettM]

The Thalmor, like the British Empire, also have other fish to fry. For example, Valenwood can't be entirely pacified or the Thalmor wouldn't be conducting purges there.

 

The Empire entirely annihilated the armies occupying Cyrodiil at Red Ring. Is there really any question that these were the best troops and leaders that the Thalmor had at the time? The Empire may have been decaying since the end of the Septim dynasty, but they were still a force to be reckoned with, and the Thalmor would have been idiots not to send their best. Their best was then utterly wiped out.

 

The Empire may not have had the strength left at that point to take the war into the Dominion. Yet, that hardly seems necessary. Having thrown the Dominion out of the Empire should have been sufficient to get far better terms that the WGC offered. Washington didn't need to take over London to get independence from the British, and the Empire didn't need to conquer the Dominion to maintain their independence. The Dominion's best was not enough to conquer Cyrodiil. What they had left at the end of the war couldn't even conquer Hammerfell. It really makes very little sense that the Emperor caved so completely.

[Kraeten]

No, since they obviously weren't committed to finish what they started they should have just accepted the original treaty - and saved countless lives WASTED to get the exact same result.

 

And where exactly are you getting this information? It's easy to say in hindsight that a person undertook a task too large/difficult to complete.

[SplaTt333]

Well that's what I'm saying, the Empire was strong enought to even attack Thalmor. But their forces were shattered among many fronts and they lost lots of economy and not only. They did the best they could - make peace, rebuild and grow strong again. Only thing I could accuse them of is not attacking back sooner. Maybe they wanted to to so, but there comes the Stormcloaks who screws the plan up. We will never know.

[MacSuibhne]

 

I would have quoted the entire thing, but I like to conserve space. Under that same intent I'll just cut straight to the point and say this, by relying on speculation you're on no greater footing in the debate than the man opposite you doing the equivalent. So, with that in mind, try to practice some humility from here on. Acting as if you're side is absolutely right doesn't help get any of your points across, and discourages thoughtful discourse.

 

There's nothing wrong with speculation. If you read my posts, or any one else's here...for content--to understand, IOW...you'd know that no one, myself included, has ever...repeat ever...said that speculation itself is a bad thing. And we all do it. But when we speculate, we do so to fill in the gaps of what we know or have evidence for. We don't try to substitute speculation for evidence.

 

Sometimes people are not aware of a fact or a source and they speculate, or hypothesize, or fantasize in lieu of that knowledge. Nothing wrong with that. But when they are presented with the facts, with hard evidence that contradicts their imaginings, and then continue to cling to their theories and fantasies, they lose all credibility. It becomes la-la land, air-fairy delusion.

 

To put it in terms anyone can understand...speculation cannot be used as evidence or to prove something. It might even be 100% spot on but it's still theory, it's not proof.

 

Beyond all that, I really wish you would take your own advice and gin up your ignore list and put me on it. I have yet to see a post of yours that has addressed either the intent or the issues raised by someone else.

 

My point, before you so rudely interrupted, was that...in my estimation...nothing the Empire has done in the last 30 years would give any citizen of Skyrim the confidence or faith to relinquish the yearning to be free of oppression and tyranny that burns in every human heart. And there is much...a documented much...the Empire has done in the last 30 years to make a continuation of the relationship entirely unacceptable and unpalatable.

 

You completely ignored that central point...putting the issues involved on a de facto ignore list...and focused on one, out-of-context phrase you obviously didn't even understand.

 

I don't want to compound your confusion any further...it would be better for you, better for me, better for the forum as a whole, if you put me on your ignore list. You won't hurt my feelings.

 

PS...it might profit you or anyone who's interested to read post #24 in the Ulfric used the "Disarm" Shout on the High King thread. I don't claim it is ultimate truth but it's closing in on a workable frame for understanding how evidence...and by implication, speculation...works. Or not...as your nature befits.

 

'nuff said.

Edited June 23, 2012 by MacSuibhne

[MacSuibhne]

Well that's what I'm saying, the Empire was strong enought to even attack Thalmor. But their forces were shattered among many fronts and they lost lots of economy and not only. They did the best they could - make peace, rebuild and grow strong again. Only thing I could accuse them of is not attacking back sooner. Maybe they wanted to to so, but there comes the Stormcloaks who screws the plan up. We will never know.

 

 

I would like to see some evidence that the Empire has been rebuilding. It may be there, it may not. But like Germany or Japan after the second world war, it's damn near impossible to re-arm when you have an occupying force apt to turn up at any time and in any corner of your country. It's just as hard to rebuild infrastucture unless you have a sugar daddy like the US to pump money into your economy or you can appropriate resources--men and materials--from a client state such as Skyrim.

 

Those who've played prior TES games are almost universally agreed that the Empire is a shadow of its former self. So they're not really getting stronger by any recognizable measurement, either.

 

Even without a Civil War, how long would it take them to get back to the strength they had before the last war with the Dominion? How strong are the Thalmor going to get in the interim?

 

While England did have other distractions...King George (of the blue piss) wanted the colonies back as much as he wanted anything. The resources England devoted to the American Stormcloak Rebellion were far from insignificant and should have been sufficient to the job.

 

Where there's principle and determination there's hope. Where there's naught but equivocation and appeasement there's no will.

Edited June 23, 2012 by MacSuibhne

[imperistan]

Yeah, so it's better to commit to the cause as you said and make lots of people loose their life for this cause with low chance of success than to save what you can and strike back when you grow strong enought. Really great idea, read-up on history how stories like this ended.

 

Its a lot like losing weight. When you first start exercising (after living a general life of laziness) you'll start out alright, but then you'll start slowing down as you run out of stamina. At this point, you can either push through it and actually get somewhere even if it means dealing with a fair amount of pain, or, you can slow down and wait until you have more stamina then go at it again, putting yourself into an endless cycle. And thats even if you bother to start up again. Just ask anyone whose having problems losing weight (and I'm talking of those that actually need to lose it), they'll tell you that its hard as hell to start up if you just stop, both with exercise and dieting for that matter.

 

Fact of the matter is, you're going to lose more (in regards to my analogy, not lose any weight whatsoever) by waiting then you would have by keeping at it while you were still going.

 

I've already shown from in-game evidence that the Empire could have came out of the Great War with little to no more loss of life than what would have been lost regardless.

 

And where exactly are you getting this information? It's easy to say in hindsight that a person undertook a task too large/difficult to complete.

 

Its fairly obvious if you read one of my posts explaining what state Tamriel was actually in during and after the Great War.

[Kraeten]

There's nothing wrong with speculation. If you read my posts, or any one else's here...for content--to understand, IOW...you'd know that no one, myself included, has ever...repeat ever...said that speculation itself is a bad thing. And we all do it. But when we speculate, we do so to fill in the gaps of what we know or have evidence for. We don't try to substitute speculation for evidence.

 

There's nothing wrong, and there's nothing right about speculating. Speculation is air. It's ultimately worthless. When speculation becomes truth, then maybe you can act as if you're totally right and the other guy is totally wrong.

 

Beyond all that, I really wish you would take your own advice and gin up your ignore list and put me on it. I have yet to see a post of yours that has addressed either the intent or the issues raised by someone else.

 

You're either a liar, or you haven't put much effort into reading my posts. Considering the fact this is the second time you've attacked the quality of my posts falsely, I'm inclined to think you're the former.

 

My point, before you so rudely interrupted, was that...in my estimation...nothing the Empire has done in the last 30 years would give any citizen of Skyrim the confidence or faith to relinquish the yearning to be free of oppression and tyranny that burns in every human heart. And there is much...a documented much...the Empire has done in the last 30 years to make a continuation of the relationship entirely unacceptable and unpalatable.

 

You essentially argued that your speculation was superior to his. Nevermind the fact it wasn't, you still chose to deliberately add the disparaging remark "For what? Tell me again...this time with a straight face."

 

I would also add, that the absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence. We don't know what the Empire has been doing to prepare itself. And we'll likely never know until the next installment of the series.

 

You completely ignored that central point...putting the issues involved on a de facto ignore list...and focused on one, out-of-context phrase you obviously didn't even understand.

 

It's so obvious yet you can't even explain how I misunderstood it. :rolleyes:

 

You won't hurt my feelings.

 

No, I suppose I won't. Because this whole thread isn't about sharing opinions but apparently about how obviously wrong the other side is.

 

PS...it might profit you or anyone who's interested to read post #24 in the Ulfric used the "Disarm" Shout on the High King thread. I don't claim it is ultimate truth but it's closing in on a workable frame for understanding how evidence...and by implication, speculation...works. Or not...as your nature befits.

 

Maybe if you didn't honestly believe every word Ulfric has said I could read that post of yours seriously.

 

Its fairly obvious if you read one of my posts explaining what state Tamriel was actually in during and after the Great War.

 

I've already read some of those posts. In fact you quoted one of them to me before, if you've forgotten. It seems you've also forgotten that your post was entirely speculation. To know for a certainty how Tamriel would have fared if the WGC hadn't been signed we would need a fair amount of additional knowledge.

Edited June 23, 2012 by Kraeten

[SplaTt333]

I would like to see some evidence that the Empire has been rebuilding.

It's just common sence. Country has been crushed by war once finished it starts to rebuild. There oportunity for profit everywhere, so there are many traders from the world coming, economy starts to grow once again.

Aside from private/foreight investors and traders as well as normal production the Empire still had money incoming from other provinces as well as Eastern Empire Trading Company profits.

 

The resources England devoted to the American Stormcloak Rebellion were far from insignificant and should have been sufficient to the job.

Or so they say in American schools. It's called patriotic education I believe.

 

Its a lot like losing weight. When you first start exercising (after living a general life of laziness) you'll start out alright, but then you'll start slowing down as you run out of stamina.

Yea, and how many days you can run without earing a one full meal? after some time your time will get weaker, sick and eventually you will use all resources you had and die.

Edited June 23, 2012 by SplaTt333

[djinx187]

 

What does the Empire do when you (the player) attack Thalmor patrols? If you are seen or it is known, a bounty is placed on your head. Isn't that, in a sense, defending the Thalmor? You're the bad guy and you've committed a crime. Clearly the Empire sides with the Thalmor, at the very least.

 

 

you also get a bounty for killing a chicken oh and killing Stormcloaks and Imperials as well.(well some of the time if you get a bounty in a fort that was controlled by the opposing force then it does fall off like you killed all the witnesses) Don't forget the whole joining the DB and you know killing important people of the Empire. You know the guy. I'm pretty sure you heard of him Emperor Titus Mede II ( Oh not to mention a boatload of other imperials you may or may not have to kill beforehand to get to him) you can kill him and still join with the Empire to take down the Stormcloaks. You have bounties for each of the 9 holds not all of them are controlled by the empire yet you will get bounties for doing the same thing in each of them. So in that case the Stormcloaks support the Empire and the Thalmor and apparently chickens as well which means the civil war is even more foolish because everybody would be dead or in prison by the end of it.

 

Maybe it was just a pain to make the game mechanic fit with the story exactly as it should of been?

[Xilante]

In a war, neither side is good or bad.

 

For a stoarmcloak person he's doing the right thing and he's the good one because he fights for his ideals, for his justice, etc.

but same thing goes for an imperial person, so at the end the justice always wins because the justice is set by the winning side.

So in short, both sides are equally good or bad depending on which justice you fit youself in better.

 

I didn't finish imperial side yet, just stoarmcloak, but from what I understood Imperials are nothing more than puppets used by Thalmor and they can't really do anything about it.

 

From a first point of view of the player, imperials are abusing their power, so it's logical that the player may want to side with stoarmcloaks, if he/she is a nord it may be because of his ideals/justice as well as because he was about to be chopped off for no reason if not, even if he's an orc or even an elf, he may not care about talos and stuff but still wants vegeance for being almost killed or he sees a point in stoarmcloak side (For instance: It's wrong to impose someone to not believe in something or pray to something as it's nothing harmless).

 

In the other hand, (be a nord or anything else) if he's strong enough to give another chance to the empire soon after what happened (either by not caring or because he thinks that because of a person it doesn't automatically mean that the entire empire is like that abusing power, these kind of people might be in stoarmcloak too and I didn't see them yet) then he might find out with time a side of the imperials that he couldn't see before.

 

It also depends from your "play style", it's just a game in the end, so you don't have to (always) choose to follow ideology, right or wrong and stuff like that but because you like to play in a particular way.

For instance, I always like to be part of the "rebels", of the small group that slowly goes to the top, starting small, that's because I like stoarmcloaks a lot.

 

So yeah, no good guys or bad guys, just two almost equal shades of gray, which one to side with totally depends on you or just throw a coin and see which one to choose first and then, with another character, join the other one to see another part of the story and enjoy it twice.

Edited June 23, 2012 by Xilante