Who are the "Good Guys" in this war?

[fraquar]

They are still Skyrim citizens, so something has to be important to them.

 

Maintaining their ties with the Empire

Absolving themselves from the Empire

Trying to help broker a truce

 

Something. Nothing is apathy.

[StormHammer81]

Well first of all, the Dark Elves were invited into Skyrim by Torygg, not Ulfric. So there's one part of the problem, Ulfric didn't ask to have to deal with them, he already doesn't like foreigners and now Dark Elf evacuees keep coming through Windhelm. Another thing, if the Stormcloaks are so... big on Skyrim for the Nords, then technically speaking of course, this is Not the Dark Elves fight. However, if the Dark Elves are going to live in Stormcloak territory in such numbers and if they expect anything from Ulfric, shouldn't they also contribute to the cause? However, I was once in a situation similar to the Dark Elves and the answer for me was to just leave and find somewhere else to live. The Dark Elves have assimilated rather well into other cities such as Riften. The problem is intriguing, because you have a Jarl that doesn't want them there or to deal with them and then there are too many Dark Elves to just assimilate into that population and same Jarl is fighting a war for Nord freedom, with the pop despising Elves in general for what happened in the Great War. Lots of factors here. To top it off, Windhelm's economy probably sucks and they can't take care of a hoard of refugees who can't or won't contribute anything. Although, there are several Dark Elves in Windhelm which run businesses and do contribute to the city. However, interestingly enough, other cities do not share any of these problems. Sorry but I have to say, I feel that if Ulfric Reeeaaalllyyy wanted to, he could find a way to make it work for the Dark Elves. By either just sending them on their way to other cities/holds or creating work programs for them to help Windhelm's industry or city maint, not to mention the war. I think you'd have to care first though after all, that's what a Jarl is supposed to do :D There is also the possibility that many of the Dark Elves are neutral, unbiased and uncharged, just trying to rebuild their lives, caught up in a system at war with itself like a bunch of red-headed step children which no body wants. Edited July 1, 2012 by bigmagy1981

[BrettM]

Well first of all, the Dark Elves were invited into Skyrim by Torygg, not Ulfric.

Really? Torygg was High King when the Red Mountain erupted, nearly 200 years ago (4E 5-6)? Wow, I had no idea he was that old!

 

In case you missed the sarcasm, the refugees were invited in by the High King at the time of the eruption, with the support of the jarls of that time. Since then the tower used as a welcome center has fallen into ruin. All of this happened long before Torygg or Ulfric were born. In fact, it happened long before their fathers were born. Probably before their grandfathers were born.

 

Suggesting that Ulfric should institute work programs to improve the lot of the Dunmer is a breathtaking idea. Perhaps he should implement universal health care, Social Security, and Food Stamps while he's at it. Seriously, though, this is a medieval, feudal society. I don't think they're quite ready for socialistic welfare programs yet. (And, for their sakes, I hope they never will be.)

[StormHammer81]

@BrettM

 

Still the High King, that doesn't do anything against the point of my argument. I read that when I first started playing so I thought they were one in the same.

 

Medieval or otherwise Windhelm still has an economy and industry. Instead of sitting around all day, he could help them get a job as woodcutters or working iron. And you know, Ulfric does love to give orders, so :D

 

You will get no where by being nasty to me, especially since I've been respectful to you. That's Truth not sarcasm. :thumbsup:

Edited July 2, 2012 by bigmagy1981

[fraquar]

He's hardly being nasty, he's just making the point Skyrim isn't in the 21st Century - it's not a welfare state. It's up to the citizens to get themselves gainfully employed.

[Kraeten]

Medieval or otherwise Windhelm still has an economy and industry. Instead of sitting around all day, he could help them get a job as woodcutters or working iron. And you know, Ulfric does love to give orders, so :D

 

For that to happen, Ulfric would have to actually care about the refugees. He would also have to be willing to alienate his reactionary followers, by ordering them to employ Dunmer. And what would that gain him? Would the Dunmer suddenly swear fealty to Ulfric? Not likely. In fact, short of improving their standard of living and pissing off a number of Nords who do actually support him nothing would change. Politically, Ulfric's made the right move by ignoring them.

 

Of course he would lose nothing by helping them to leave either, but for some reason he'd rather not bother. Probably because he'd miss the taxes he gained from keeping them within the city.

[StormHammer81]

For Christ's sake. Get over the welfare state thing - Please! Never, ever did I insinuate welfare. Putting people to work is NOT welfare. That's job creation. Ulfric is mad BECAUSE it's almost a welfare state. Really guys. Am I going to have to join the Stormcloaks to straighten this one out too geez... When in my post did I say that Mr Worldwide should put the Dark Elves on welfare? Brett started that not me.

 

Not to drag stuff out, but to be honest I'm kinda sad at some of the stuff going on in America right now and am against Socialism and welfare except for those in dire need, which does happen. But nooo these fckers over here are too busy fighting each other over ahhh class and race and like when I left the Military, I got a little money and they gave me all kinds of HELL for it, even though I earned it. This country is fcked. I love this place but it's messed up.

Edited July 2, 2012 by bigmagy1981

[fraquar]

With all the Nords away fighing (and dying) in "their own war", how in the hell is it the Dunmer still need someone to "put them to work"? Seriously, there a million things they could be doing, including getting the hell out of a place that for 200 years doesn't seem to want to accomodate them.

 

After 200 years, the blame starts to shift to those who expect others to change who obviously aren't. :wallbash:

Edited July 2, 2012 by fraquar

[BrettM]

For Christ's sake. Get over the welfare state thing - Please! Never, ever did I insinuate welfare. Putting people to work is NOT welfare. That's job creation.

Government involvement in arranging jobs for the benefit of a certain segment of the population IS seeing to their welfare, by definition. A welfare state is about much more than simply handing money to people. You don't get to pretend it isn't socialism just by refusing to call it socialism.

 

You're demanding that Ulfric order employers to give certain jobs to certain people, or to create positions for those people even if the employer has no present need of additional employees. Whatever you choose to call that, it sure isn't free-market capitalism. There is a term, though, for a system where businesses have private owners but are operated according to government orders. See if you can guess what word I'm thinking of.

 

Such an employment program results in the forced transfer of wealth from one segment of the population to another, whether the money to pay for those "created" jobs comes out of the pocket of the employer or the pocket of some employee who was fired to give his job to a member of the favored underclass. Jobs are created by economic growth, not by government ordering them into existence. Forced transfers of wealth IS welfare, even when the transfer is not directly between the government and the subsidized citizen.

 

Or perhaps you had some sort of public works program in mind. But giving people money for makework jobs is just as much welfare as giving them money directly. Except now the forced transfer of wealth is from the pockets of taxpayers and is more visible than the hidden costs of mandatory private employment.

 

At the very least you are suggesting some government agency to oversee private hiring to ensure that there is no discrimination. Hurrah for the medieval EEOC! Such bureaucracies are also symptomatic of welfare nanny states. And I'm sure you would insist that all those newly-employed Dunmer be paid a "living wage" (as determined by the government, naturally). So now we can throw a minimum wage law into the socialistic mix as well.

 

Whether you wish to admit it or not, you are advocating that Ulfric initiate a welfare state. A small one, true, but it is the nature of such things to grow.

Edited July 2, 2012 by BrettM

[abc222]

Couldn't the dunmer establish their own city somewhere distant and isolated? They are alreayd used to harsh conditions, they won't have to deal with the locals and they would retain their culture. All those haughty dunmer could move to the city and guard it with their ancestors' spirits. They won't meddle in political affairs and keep to themselves. I see nothing wrong with this solution.