Who are the "Good Guys" in this war?

[breakwind]

I think Bigmagy meant he/she would offer his/her Orc to help by slaying the Thalmor...not joining their cause :smile:

[sajuukkhar9000]

Looking back on it, I feel bad for missing the insanely obvious joke.

[StormHammer81]

I think Bigmagy meant he/she would offer his/her Orc to help by slaying the Thalmor...not joining their cause :smile:

 

Yeah he did.

 

The Thalmor would never accept an Orc.

 

Their mistake. :dance:

 

The Thalmor view Orcs as worthless, degenerate, Mer, who are nothing better then goblin slaves.

 

They shor do them Thalmors. Of course, it's kind of hard for the Thalmor to view anything without a head. Now, the Orcs don't have a view of the Thalmor, cause it's kinda hard to see them clearly when half of their body is flying one way and the other half is traveling in the opposite direction. :devil:

Edited July 8, 2012 by bigmagy1981

[IRSUPERMAN86]

Okay guys heres the thing, I may be a little late but this is advice to you guys out there confused about joining the Stormcloaks or Imperial Legion. Think of it this way if Ulfric wins and Skyrim is disbanded from the Empire then that gives the Thalmor rights to go and invade Skyrim and have The Great War v2 (this one is shorter) and soon Skyrim turns into Elven land. And the Empire is the only thing preventing the Thalmor from completely taking Skyrim over. Bethesda makes you think on situations like this, either go with the people who almost cut your head off (who are the only thing protecting Skyrim from the Thalmor), or go with the people who seem like the good guys but it turns out being the blind leading the blind.

 

SPOILER ALERT:

 

Also a side note if you complete the Imperial Legion Story, General Tulius says "The Thalmor won't be pulling the strings for much longer..." or something in that nature. So the Empire is acting like the puppet on the strings so that they make the Thalmor think that they control everything where in the near future the Legion is going to unite the allying countries and kick the Thalmor's yellow asses

[Lachdonin]

The conflict between the Imperial Legion and the Stormcloak Rebelion is a lot more complex than just sucession from the Empire and Talos worship. It includes political priority, personal ambiton, religious validity, external vs internal influance and many, many more variables.

 

It can be safely said that the Empire's plan is to defeat the Thalmor and recapture Summurset (now called Alinor, i beleive). This is an external influance characteristic. The Empire want's to destroy a threat. No one who pays any attention to the game can say otherwise. If you ask around, you are told by several people, both in the Legion and the Thalmor, that the war is brewing. Rikke indicates that the Legion has to recruit locally because the Imperial City won't send reinforcements, and Tullius himself says that the vast majority of Imperial forces are sitting on the Thalmor border.

 

As a counterpoint to that, the Stormcloaks are more isolationist. I have 2 Stormcloak characters, and have yet to hear a single claim that they will take the fight to the Thalmor. From anyone. They are adamant that they will keep the Thalmor out of Skyrim (or die trying) but theirs is clearly an internal perspective.

 

As far as political priority goes, the Empire is more concerned with saving lives than it is with little things like civil liberties. Their priority is rebuilding the Legions and preparing for another war, this time on their own terms.

 

The Stormcloaks, on the other hand, would rather die than give up their civil liberties. If those liberties bring the Thalmor down on them, then they would be perfectly at ease being wiped out, so long as the don't give up.

 

In the same vein, the issue of religious validity falls into these priorities. The Thalmor certianly views Talos as a totally invalid diety, but i haven't seen anything to indicate the Empire agrees (save for one writer, who cannot be considered to speak for the entire nation). This becomes a matter of open validity. The Empire certianly still reveres their founder and patron, but has opted to keep Talos worship under wraps until the Thalmor are dealt with. The Stormcloaks, on the other hand, demand the right to openly worship their god.

 

Then, of course, theres Ulfric's personal ambition. I specify Ulfric, because Tullius makes no gesture, at any point, which would indicate he's doing anything but following orders. He doesn't tale Elisef's throne, doesn't take on any mantle of Jarl, and while during Season Unending he asks Elisef to let him handle the negotiations, there doesn't seem to be any personal ambition in him. Ulfric, on the other hand, wants to rule Skyrim. This is made clear through a a good half the conversations in the game (ok, thats a bit of an exageration).

 

Essentially, who you side with boils down to how you answer the following questions (regardless of race, since half of the Nords aren't on Ulfric's side anyway). Would you rather destroy your enemy, or weather their attacks? Would you rather worship your gods in the open and die, or worship them in your basement and live? Do the needs of the many outweigh your own needs?

 

All the arguements about the morality of the conflict instantly break down as subjective, which is why the decision has to be a subjective one. Should Skyrim have the right to independance? I ask myself, would the USA give Florida the same privilage? Was the Empire right in banning talos worship? I ask myself, would they have been more right to keep the war going, knowing tens of thousands would die?

 

For me, the answer is simple. The Empire. They remain the best hope for Tamriel (particularly with my suspicion of the return of the Sload with TES Online...). But from my perspectives, the greater whole is infinately more important than the freedom of an individual, or even the minority. Freedom is about wants, the Empire is more about needs.

[Kraeten]

By the same token you can't use game limitation to project what Brunwuff may do. Especially when we can see with our own eyes and verify that he does nothing in the aftermath of the Civil War.

 

I have to pop back in to criticize this statement. Whatever side you choose in the civil war, precious little changes over all. Basically the only real thing that happens, is you get new Jarls. Imperial camps and Stormcloak camps will still exist in the game. If you're seriously going to use that horridly flawed argument, then I'm just going to point out the fact that Ulfric never attacked/destroyed the Thalmor Embassy in Skyrim even if he wins the civil war. *gasp* That must mean he isn't really interested in overthrowing the Dominion. :rolleyes:

 

More importantly, NONE of the Hold capitols actually change when their respective Jarl is replaced. That's right, it doesn't matter who sits in the fancy chair. Maybe if the other hold capitols could actually be seen undergoing some new developments as a result of the change in leadership, then maybe you would have a valid case of claiming Brunwulf has done nothing.

 

Fact of the matter is, Bethesda was lazy. There are hardly any repercussions for your actions in the game. If you want to play a game where your choices have a real effect, then I recommend you check out Dragon Age Origins.

Edited July 8, 2012 by Kraeten

[CrazyShadowDami]

"There are no good guys, there are just sides."

 

-CrazyShadowDami

[sajuukkhar9000]

Fact of the matter is, Bethesda was lazy. There are hardly any repercussions for your actions in the game. If you want to play a game where your choices have a real effect, then I recommend you check out Dragon Age Origins.

To bad the only real change comes into play in the last 5 minutes of the game, during the battle for the city, and in a bunch of slideshows after the game.

 

In the game itself precious little changes.

[MacSuibhne]

I have to pop back in to criticize this statement. Whatever side you choose in the civil war, precious little changes over all. Basically the only real thing that happens, is you get new Jarls. Imperial camps and Stormcloak camps will still exist in the game. If you're seriously going to use that horridly flawed argument, then I'm just going to point out the fact that Ulfric never attacked/destroyed the Thalmor Embassy in Skyrim even if he wins the civil war. *gasp* That must mean he isn't really interested in overthrowing the Dominion.

 

As I've mentioned, I've not taken a side but from what I've been told, if Ulfric wins, the Thalmor Embassy is empty. Why would it need attacking? It's a building.

 

Is that not true?

 

 

More importantly, NONE of the Hold capitols actually change when their respective Jarl is replaced. That's right, it doesn't matter who sits in the fancy chair. Maybe if the other hold capitols could actually be seen undergoing some new developments as a result of the change in leadership, then maybe you would have a valid case of claiming Brunwulf has done nothing

.

 

I don't see how that follows. What has the physical location of the Hold Capital got to do with it? Would you prefer Kynegrove? or Shor's Stone? More importantly what logic is there to move the capitols?

 

The fact is that we come into the game with the Empire mired in indecision, timidity and fear...doing nothing of importance about anything without Thalmor approval. Again, nothing has been done about the Dunmer in the Grey Quarter for the last 150 years. Maybe the problem is intractable, maybe it's not the problem...to the people of Skyrim...that some modern sensibilities desperately want it to be. We really don't know.

 

But the point is that, given the time frames involved, none of that can be laid at Ulfric's feet. Or if you insist, then it may also be laid at Brunwuff's feet. At the Empire's feet.

 

It really comes down to expectations...I believe that it is unreasonable to expect Ulfric to address the Grey Quarter issue while he is in the middle of a fight for his life and for the vision he holds for all of Skyrim. More to the point, I suspect that it is fundamentally misguided to expect "racism" to be an issue...or even understood esp. in contemporary terms...in a feudal society such as Skyrim.

 

Now there are people here who, despite historical analogues, despite a paucity of hard evidence, despite reason and logic, disagree with me. And that's fine.

 

But if they expect Ulfric to address the 150 year old problem with the Dunmer (even though a case can be made that it is ultimately the Empire's responsibility), then logic and fairness compels that Brunwuff be expected to address the issue post haste.

 

Anything else is hypocrisy.

[Kraeten]

To bad the only real change comes into play in the last 5 minutes of the game, during the battle for the city, and in a bunch of slideshows after the game.

 

In the game itself precious little changes.

 

I wholeheartedly disagree, but then I'm sure you and I have differing opinions on what amounts to "real change". :tongue:

 

As I've mentioned, I've not taken a side but from what I've been told, if Ulfric wins, the Thalmor Embassy is empty. Why would it need attacking? It's a building.

 

Is that not true?

 

I was under the impression the Embassy is empty after completing the Diplomatic Immunity quest, a part of the main quest line. But perhaps I'm wrong.

 

I don't see how that follows. What has the physical location of the Hold Capital got to do with it? Would you prefer Kynegrove? or Shor's Stone? More importantly what logic is there to move the capitols?

 

You're missing the point. I'm saying that regardless of the Jarl you have replaced (as a result of your actions in the civil war) the new one performs his or her duties in exactly the same way as their predecessor. Nothing changes. You're claiming Brunwulf has done nothing for the Dunmer, when in fact NONE of the new Jarls do anything. Brunwulf's failure to enact observable reform isn't a character flaw, but a product of Bethesda's laziness. What Bethesda DID do however, is include dialogue for an Argonian who expresses his opinion that things are improving under Brunwulf's reign. If we're being realistic, then we understand this is really just the developer's lazy way of showing us that our actions made a difference.

Edited July 8, 2012 by Kraeten