Who are the "Good Guys" in this war?

[MacSuibhne]

You can blame the developers, I guess. But you're the one that's missing the point.

 

Personally, I don't expect anything to change regardless of the outcome of the civil war...esp. not in the short term. But then I'm not laying spurious charges at the feet of Ulfric or the Stormcloaks, either--it's a perspective that has as its foundational principle, the presumption of innocence and an objectivity that relying on hearsay and gossip abrogates.

 

Bottom line is that I am sure that expecting Brunwuff to change things is unrealistic...we agree on that. But if it's reasonable to expect Ulfric to do something about a problem that predates him by 100 years and is ultimately the responsibility of the Empire (or what's it for?), then it is not unreasonable to expect Brunwuff to do something different...and considering that Brunwuff himself (as well as these "lazy' devs) makes it such a big issue of it, it's not unreasonable to expect some immediacy.

[Kraeten]

You can blame the developers, I guess. But you're the one that's missing the point.

Doubtful.

But then I'm not laying spurious charges at the feet of Ulfric or the Stormcloaks, either--it's a perspective that has as its foundational principle, the presumption of innocence and an objectivity that relying on hearsay and gossip abrogates.

 

Just one problem with that lofty approach, there hardly is ANY objective information regarding the civil war. It's ultimately left to the player to decide who is more favorable using the little information provided. Much of this information we get from NPC's. How much value we give to the words of these NPC's is the player's choice. I personally give plenty of value to Brunwulf's words, as I see no sensible reason to discredit his words. I also highly value Sybille Stentor's words, as she is considerably experienced and knowledgeable.

 

Bottom line is that I am sure that expecting Brunwuff to change things is unrealistic...we agree on that.

 

Since when did we agree on that? Perhaps I didn't make it clear, but I'm taking the side of the Argonian (whose name escapes me atm) who states that things are improving with Brunwulf as Jarl.

 

But if it's reasonable to expect Ulfric to do something about a problem that predates him by 100 years

 

It is still his responsibility as Jarl to look after the people beneath him.

 

and is ultimately the responsibility of the Empire (or what's it for?),

 

That is debatable. In many cases, the Empire has allowed the individual provinces outside of Cyrodiil to maintain some autonomy. The fact that the Empire allows Skyrim to have Jarls is proof of this leniency. It is only when the respective ruler of a province fails to maintain order that the Legion intervenes. Like they are doing presently in Skyrim.

 

then it is not unreasonable to expect Brunwuff to do something different...and considering that Brunwuff himself (as well as these "lazy' devs) makes it such a big issue of it, it's not unreasonable to expect some immediacy.

 

If we believe the words of the Argonian, and we should, then Brunwulf has started to improve their livelihood with "some immediacy".

Edited July 8, 2012 by Kraeten

[MacSuibhne]

 

Just one problem with that lofty approach, there hardly is ANY objective information regarding the civil war. It's ultimately left to the player to decide who is more favorable using the little information provided. Much of this information we get from NPC's. How much value we give to the words of these NPC's is the player's choice. I personally give plenty of value to Brunwulf's words, as I see no sensible reason to discredit his words. I also highly value Sybille Stentor's words, as she is considerably experienced and knowledgeable.

 

It's telling that you consider the presumption of innocence to be a lofty approach. But then many Imperial apologists seem to share this view. Along with the idea that people being led off to torture and execution is an acceptable price to pay to mollify the Thalmor and bolster a static, disingenuous, timid, and placatory Empire.

 

The real problem is very like the fable of the three blind men and the elephant--they're blind, so all they can comprehend is what they "feel." They can't see the larger picture.

 

It is no surprise that you see a dearth of objective evidence. But that's only because you're looking or listening to isolated NPC's and hearsay and rejecting those POVs that don't support what you've already decided. The dark elf on the way to Windhelm to join the Stormcloaks because "Ulfric has the right of it" is just as believable as anything Brunwuff or Sybill Stentor has to say. Maybe moreso because he's not identifiably attached to any particular faction.

 

To truly understand...to find an objective perspective...you cannot dismiss the WGC and the way that the Empire caved to the AD. You cannot dismiss the 30 years that have gone by with no significant movement on the part of the Empire to fulfill it assurances of rebuilding and re-arming. Or that, in fact, by allowing Thalmor patrols in Skyrim and Cyrodiil, the Empire has given up a critical military advantage. You cannot wave away the the fact that the Empire aids and abets Thalmor activity in Skyrim, anymore than you can wave away the political relationships between a vassal High king and the Emperor and the equally submissive relationship of the Emperor to the AD.

 

You cannot set aside the broken promises, and the betrayal and arrest of Ulfric by the Empire; nor the fact that Torygg knew and "acquiesced" to it. You cannot disregard the Nordic Tradition that allows a jarl to challenge the High King nor Sybyll Stentor's (since she is a "credible" source in your world) affirmation that Ulfric had the right. Nor the fact that to a Nord, the Thuum is a legitimate skill to be used in battle.

 

You cannot brush aside the fact that the Dunmer were given...no strings attached...the Grey Quarter; nor the fact that this was one hundred fifty years ago (long before Ulfric was born); nor the fact that they came as penniless refugees who were, in fact, slavers. You cannot diminish the fact that the Dunmer are racially "clannish" and "distrustful" of others and other races. Nor the implication that living in the Grey Quarter might very well be a choice that they willingly make--it gives them something to complain about, if nothing else.

 

You cannot sweep aside the fact that nowhere in the game does Ulfric or Galmor or anyone outside the rank and file of Stormcloak chain of command make any statements that are racially motivated nor does Ulfric issue or support any laws, decrees, edicts that are objectively racial in nature nor is there any evidence that he actively supports any such.

 

You cannot dismiss the fact that, the Empire cannot even protect its citizens...or perhaps, it's just that it will not...from the depredations of a foreign power.

 

You cannot pooh-pooh Ulfric's and/or the Stormcloak desire for Independence from an exploitative and stagnate Empire that has no (or no longer has) legitimate claim to suzerainty over Skyrim.

 

All these things (and more) are just pieces of the puzzle; parts of the bigger picture. They all fit together. In fact, by themselves they mean nothing...nothing. If you pick up one piece you cannot know what its importance is. You cannot see how it fits into the larger scheme of things. The problem comes when you try to put the pieces together and, not finding a proper fit, you either force a fit--through speculation and wishful thinking--or you go back to a previous piece hoping that maybe this time it will fit.

 

That's the definition of irrationality, if not insanity--doing/saying the same thing over and over again expecting a different outcome.

 

And I suspect, for those too lazy to work their way through the puzzle, the pieces need never fit.

Edited July 8, 2012 by MacSuibhne

[sajuukkhar9000]

@MacSuibhne

I would like to point out that the scripted world interaction that places random travelers going to either Solitude or Windhelm, to join up with the Legion or the Stormcloaks, is only supposed to put Humans going to Windhelm, and Dunmer going to Soltiude.

 

The event is actually not supposed to have Dunmer saying they are going to Windhelm to join up with the Stormcloaks, and indeed, in all my playthroughs of the game, I have never seen it happen.

 

If it has happened for you, it is most likely a bug.

Edited July 8, 2012 by sajuukkhar9000

[StormHammer81]

Yeah that is actually an Imperial who is on his way Windhelm and a Dark Elf who is on his way to Solitude. I looked it up because I was curious myself :facepalm:

 

WEDL13 Bodryn DarkElf (Light-Skinned) Looking to Join the Legion

WEDL14 Sylvian Imperial (Dark-Skinned) Looking to Join the Stormcloaks

 

I know because I work with those encounter in OCS :dance:

Edited July 8, 2012 by bigmagy1981

[MacSuibhne]

I would like to point out that the scripted world interaction that places random travelers going to either Solitude or Windhelm, to join up with the Legion or the Stormcloaks, is only supposed to put Humans going to Windhelm, and Dunmer going to Soltiude.

 

The event is actually not supposed to have Dunmer saying they are going to Windhelm to join up with the Stormcloaks, and indeed, in all my playthroughs of the game, I have never seen it happen.

 

If it has happened for you, it is most likely a bug.

 

 

I didn't say "Dunmer" I said "dark elf"...and maybe I'm wrong about the "elf" part--they all look alike to me. :tongue:

 

But here again...it's one small piece of the puzzle--quibbling over table scraps.

 

And despite that, the point is/was/and remains that for every Bodryn in the game, there's a Sylvian...all you have to do is the unthinkable!!--be opened minded enough to listen.

 

Or to quote BrettM because it bears repeating...

 

Are there any Dunmer in Windhelm who are unemployed? The only two beggars in town are Nords. Three Dunmer own businesses, one owns a prosperous farm, one is a farm worker, one is a nanny, and one has a responsible position with a shipping company. Who exactly needs a job?

 

And...

 

 

I have a hard time seeing how Ulfric and/or the Stormcloaks deserve condemnation for their supposed racism yet the non-Nords deserve only sympathy despite their equal racism and criminal ways. One of the Argonians is not shy about telling us that "our kind" (Nord or Dunmer) are not welcome on the docks. One admits to being an ex-thief. One is a skooma addict. One suggests that he is not averse to pilfering from the goods he handles. One of the Dunmer complains that Argonians are naturally lazy, and she has no qualms about dealing with pirates to shut down her employer's competition. One is either an outright fence or willfully ignorant about the source of the goods he buys. Another tells you that you had best not deal with him if you're the sort that cares about where he obtains his goods. One may very well be an Imperial spy, giving some foundation to Rolff's general suspicion. Do they deserve no censure at all for their morally-casual, racist ways? It seems pretty hypocritical to put Ulfric's actions under a microscope while turning a blind eye to the flaws of those he allows to exist in his community.

 

What is it in a person's character that they prefer to listen to the venting of someone's spleen, yet find equanimity uninteresting?

Edited July 8, 2012 by MacSuibhne

[sajuukkhar9000]

I didn't say "Dunmer" I said "dark elf"...and maybe I'm wrong about the "elf" part--they all look alike to me. :tongue:

 

But here again...it's one small piece of the puzzle--quibbling over table scraps.

 

And despite that, the point is/was/and remains that for every Bodryn in the game, there's a Sylvian...all you have to do is the unthinkable--be opened minded enough to listen.

Dunmer are Dark Elves.... they are the same thing.

 

There are no elves of any kind that join the Stormcloaks.

Edited July 8, 2012 by sajuukkhar9000

[BrettM]

Regarding the "irony" of suppressing the religion of the Forsworn while fighting for freedom to worship Talos, I don't think the two cases are equivalent. There are certain exceptions to religious freedom that even we enlightened modern people will admit to...

 

So then stop giving the Empire sh*t for banning Talos. Mr Modern society. The two cases are approx equivalent, there is no difference whatsoever. I'm sorry but that is wrong. So, Stormcloaks can worship their God but fck the Forsworn. It is their land and their Gods, JUST THE SAME as the Nords in Skyrim. Have you seen some of these Nordic ruins? What went on in there? Hmmm... Well, I will help you out with this one. Embalming tools, uhh walking Corpses who apparently weren't allowed to die, then we have sacrificial alters, Dragon worship/sacrifice. Shall I go on? Seriously folks. This is exactly why I quit being a Stormcloak because the ideology sadly, appears to somewhat selective, from the top down. Freedom for Nords alone. Then the opposite of that side of the logic is NO-FREEDOM for everyone else, EVEN if they're human == Evil == Thalmor Logic (Freedom for Elves alone).

Do you really not see any difference between Talos worship and a Forsworn religion that sacrifices the innocent in their ceremonies?

 

What do the ancient Nord ruins have to do with Talos or Ulfric? The Nords fought for hundreds of years to destroy the Dragon Cult following the Dragon War, and this was done thousands of years before Tiber Septim was even born. Yes, the ancient Nords had a barbaric religion with barbaric practices. They started a revolution back then to put a stop to that religion. How is this a reason for being disgusted with the Stormcloaks and their ideology? What is the connection?

 

Unlike the Forsworn, the Stormcloaks are not trying to return to that ancient barbaric religion, and they aren't fighting for the right to create draugr and use the old sacrificial altars in the Dragon Cult temples. Talos worship has absolutely NO relationship to the Dragon Cult, and it's ridiculous to claim that Talos worship is equivalent to the old religion of the Forsworn because Nords used to have a Dragon Cult. There is no logic to that argument at all.

 

AND this is the biggest difference between the Stormcloaks and the American Revolution even the Alyssian Revolution. They fought solely on ideas and PRINCIPLE for ALL. Not just for Nords. Freedom for EVERYONE.

 

Get mad, I don't care. Either we're all free with the same rights and God created us equal OR the other side. Make up your mind PLEASE.

The American Revolution fought only for freedom for the American colonies. Yes, the revolutionaries held that there should be liberty and equal rights for all, but they fought only for their own. As John Quincy Adams said, "She [America] is the well-wisher to the freedom and independence of all. She is the champion and vindicator only of her own."

 

I pointed out that the Stormcloaks are probably not so enlightened and that they are fighting only for their own freedom without any guiding principles regarding anyone else's. So what? How does this prove that I am confused about my own beliefs and need to make up my mind? Many revolutions in the history of humanity have been fought only to secure the freedom of the revolutionaries themselves. Taking note of such facts does not in any way show that I do not believe in more general principles of liberty. Wishing well to the Stormcloaks in their fight for freedom and independence does not mean that I would support them in denying it to anyone else.

 

When it comes to the Reach, let's not forget that the Forsworn are not representative of the views of Reachmen in general. Let's not forget that the Forsworn committed many atrocities against Nord civilians who had lived peacefully in the Reach for generations. Even if I agreed that Ulfric is racist, his treatment of the Dunmer amounts to nothing more than neglect. The racism of the Forsworn, however, is active and violent.

 

Let's not forget that the Empire's attitude toward the Reach is no better than that of Ulfric, who was working for the Empire when he reclaimed it. The Empire is no lover of freedom and independence for anyone at all, so there is even less reason to support them on the question of liberty than there is to support the Stormcloaks. There are no Adamses or Madisons or Jeffersons on either side, so we can only choose between the sides we are offered even if neither of them is ideal from an enlightened point of view.

 

I have a hard time seeing how Ulfric and/or the Stormcloaks deserve condemnation for their supposed racism yet the non-Nords deserve only sympathy despite their equal racism and criminal ways.

I... I... ahhhh.... I'm afraid I can't respond to this garbage or any other part of your last post without insulting you. Sorry, cause I'd *really* like to. How are you against Socialism again? Cause you sound very much far left. Just an observation.

You seem to be observing me in some kind of fun-house mirror if you think that statement is in any way far left or socialist. I was objecting to the kind of bleeding-heart liberalism that makes excuses for or ignores the bad behavior of those they anoint as "victims" while allowing no excuses for the bad behavior of those they anoint as "oppressors". I was objecting to the kind of thinking -- left, right, or other -- that apportions all blame to one side and tries to turn a gray issue into pure black-and-white. I am objecting to the kind of illogic that willfully disregards selected facts in order to reach a pre-determined conclusion. How in the world can that be characterized as sounding far left?

 

Are you really claiming that you can't respond to a point of debate without resorting to personal insults and ad hominem attacks? Do you understand how sad that is?

[StormHammer81]

@BrettM

Are you really claiming that you can't respond to a point of debate without resorting to personal insults and ad hominem attacks? Do you understand how sad that is?

 

Ohhh you mean the way you argued with me? There's really no debating with you, I mean I've proved my case many times over and you still want to argue on inaccurate information, ignoring certain facts which really, really aggravates me when people do that. Like for example, I have a liberal friend who refuses to admit that Obama is a failure and I have a hard-core Conservative friend who refuses to admit the Church is screwing up. No arguing with those people whatsoever. Furthermore, you started this insult thing first and to be honest, I really have no desire to rehash ancient history so, be best for both of us to just call it even :D

 

But hey, I do respect your opinion as a Stormcloak and I wish you the best in your future endeavors.

Edited July 8, 2012 by bigmagy1981

[FreeeLancer]

You cannot dismiss the 30 years that have gone by with no significant movement on the part of the Empire to fulfill it assurances of rebuilding and re-arming.

Source please.

Also, Hundred Years War, War of Roses, Ottoman Empire which blew Bulgarians/Serbs/Croats yet it took them centuries to go through all the Balkan countries and finally reach Vienna, Incan civil unrests were also long lasting, Sengoku Jidai, hell, even Opium Wars (short lasting as they were) took decades to set stage... Point is, in this time frame blitzkrieg was not invented, battles are bloody (even more so with magic involved), close and personal and, winner or loser, in most cases you'd need years if not decades to recuperate from losses, gather money/supplies and start a new campaign.

 

You cannot set aside the broken promises, and the betrayal and arrest of Ulfric by the Empire; nor the fact that Torygg knew and "acquiesced" to it.

AFAIK his actions were not condoned by the Empire nor was he promised anything from anyone except local yarl, and he did kinda try to annul a part of a peace treaty signed between two countries, which he had no authority to do. (please correct me if I'm wrong, I'm a bit fuzzy about whole Maraketh incident)

 

 

You cannot brush aside the fact that the Dunmer were given...no strings attached...the Grey Quarter; nor the fact that this was one hundred fifty years ago (long before Ulfric was born); nor the fact that they came as penniless refugees who were, in fact, slavers. You cannot diminish the fact that the Dunmer are racially "clannish" and "distrustful" of others and other races. Nor the implication that living in the Grey Quarter might very well be a choice that they willingly make--it gives them something to complain about, if nothing else.

Racial segregation is a normal thing, a part of "human condition". It's psychology 101, or to be more exact sticking with people you have as much in common as possible. That's why wherever you are you'll see communities that use things such as religion, skin color, nationality or in some cases even political predisposition that tend to stick with one another not only in their views but also in their habitat.

The problem here is not that they separate themselves, but the fact that the Gray Quarter feels to them much like ghetto feels for colored people in USA instead of for example Chinese/Russian/random non-colored nationality Quarter.

 

You cannot dismiss the fact that, the Empire cannot even protect its citizens... ...from the depredations of a foreign power.

Loosing a war does that to defeated unfortunately... See Treaty of Versailles (a shameful peace treaty at the end of WWI that greatly harmed Germany and would subsequently represent one of the biggest causes for WWII) as it provides allot of interesting parallels between Tamriel and RL history.

 

You cannot pooh-pooh Ulfric's and/or the Stormcloak desire for Independence from an exploitative and stagnate Empire that has no or no longer has) legitimate claim to suzerainty over Skyrim.

If it were done through Moot (Moat ?) I'd be all up for it... Challenging a kid to a combat to the death and "bringing a gun to a knife fight" without support from any of the Jarls or any eyewitnesses... Well, I think no one can honestly say it doesn't look at least a bit shady...

EDIT: actually, I'm not so sure about this point... unfortunately I've finished the whole Civil War thingie only twice and both times as imperial, so maybe Ulfric or someone provides reasons for challenging a king which borderlines on assassination to the eyes of uninformed observer such as myself

Edited July 8, 2012 by FreeeLancer