Who are the "Good Guys" in this war?

[imperistan]

I'm not saying he had to. I'm just bringing up the fact he mirrors Tullius' behavior. To criticize Tullius for not giving Ulfric a trial is ridiculous, when Ulfric himself wouldn't afford his own enemy such a courtesy either.

 

Few people who started wars in our own world ever did give their enemies any sort of trial before they either killed them or exiled them. Those that came in defense and/or were defending against an invading (or rebelling for that matter) force may have, but those that started these kinds of wars? Never. AT least not as far as I know at any rate. Either way, these occasions if they ever occurred were very seldom, and no where near the norm to the point that it should be expected.

 

I highly doubt that. Had he stayed, he would have showed an exemplary commitment to Skyrim's heritage. And in the event he was found guilty and executed, his death would be a rallying cry for his supporters.

 

Or, he would have been executed and whatever point he would have made would have been thrown in the mud by it. Lets remember that the propaganda machine against Ulfric is strong as it is. If he died in Solitude before he could truly announce his actions to the world (Without the interference of Solitude mind you, which he wasn't going to be able to do if he stayed there) then whatever his men back in Windhelm knew of his intentions are again, just going to end up having their arguments sown in doubt as people find that the only even possibly substantial source of information is only going to come out of Solitude, and Solitude is going to be telling everyone that Ulfric was a thug who slew the High King in cold blood. So its the word of Solitude (the seat of the High King as well as the Imperial presence in Skyrim) versus a raving bunch of brutes (lets face it, Ulfric's the only one in the Stormcloak army thats really charismatic, besides may be Ralof) in Windhelm.

 

Most are going to go with Solitude when they won't have any real evidence (remember that virtually everyone in Skyrim is going to know what they know and side how they side based on what they hear down at the pub. There's no impartional national news service for people to rely on. Just word of mouth, and the word of mouth is not going to be in favor of Ulfric in the vast majority of the cities an[d villages) saying that what Ulfric did may have been truly righteous and for a greater cause.

 

Solitude very well might have, if Ulfric hadn't fled.

 

If Rogvirs assertions before he was beheaded couldn't turn anyone, Ulfric staying wasn't. That everyone in Solitude was STILL against Ulfric after the fact (when the point that Ulfric supposedly would have made if he had stayed) shows that they weren't going to hear any of it if he hadn't left. His leaving may have had some effect, but the fact that the point was still trying to be made regardless would have turned at least some to Ulfrics side even despite his leaving. But no one is turned to his side, which shows they weren't going to hear it.

 

Do you honestly believe Ulfric was going to be allowed on a soap box? He was GAGGED by the Imperials the entire time when they were taking him to be executed, and it wasn't just because of the Thu'um. He was going to die with that gag in his mouth and no one in Solitude nor Tullius' entourage in their right mind was going to let Ulfric go un-gagged for the entire time they had him in custody. Martyrs are that much more effective when you actually allow them to say something to the witnesses of their execution.

 

And Tullius doesn't FORCE Jarl B to do anything. Other than allowing Imperial traffic through his city, the Empire has no bearing on him or how he rules. Tullius has to more or less, get down on his knees and lick the Jarl's balls for him to do anything for the Empire

 

Thing is though is that Tullius must walk a fine line where Whiterun is concerned. Its the most strategically important city in Skyrim. Tullius can't risk that city being turned over to the Stormcloaks (note that the actual battle where the Dragonborn is on the Stormcloak side is a different matter. At that point in the war the fine line has already been walked) so he must play the politics game with Balgruff, or risk losing the most direct route in Stormcloak territory as well as the economic center in Skyrim.

 

For example, the Jarls rule their people and not all of them agree with the Empire. Jarl B even allows Talos worship AND allows people to openly speak out against the Empire, while the Empire allows it. Jarl B alone proves the Empire MORE than respects Nord tradition.

 

Whiterun isn't an Imperial held city. Remember that Skyrim is in a state of Civil War. There are jurisdictions and Whiterun is the one hold in Skyrim where neither side of the war has actual jurisdiction. The Empire couldn't assert anything on Whiterun if it wanted to, not without either A, walking that line, or B, forcibly taking the city.

 

The Empire also isn't into silencing political dissidents nor asserting the WGC except where they're forced to. Whiterun isn't one of those cases. The Thalmor are not as present in Skyrim as of yet (so its unlikely that anything will come of the Talos statue anytime soon, if at all) as they are in Cyrodiil and as was said, Whiterun isn't yet under the Empires real jurisdiction.

 

- Will not support Elisif's right *by tradition* to have her proper title as High Queen.

 

Feel free to show a source that explains how Ulfrics challenge to the High-King's rule (lets remember that this society is still largely of the men > women line of thinking) is overruled just because the High King happened to have a wife. Unless you're suggesting that Ulfric challenge her to a duel too. If so, that's just cute!

 

- Ulfric uses the Thu'um in a disgraceful manner, not giving honor to the Gods BECAUSE there was absolutely no need to use the Voice against Torygg. And this guy Ulfric was a Grey-Beard! Would the Grey-Beards have shouted Torygg down like he did? And the answer is no. There are plaques on the way up High Hrothgar which warn against misusing the Voice. The Voice is a special gift but is not to be abused. That broke the legitimacy of the duel, right there because there is no honor in shouting down an adversary who at very least can't shout back!

 

No he doesn't. He's using it the same manner it was always originally used (as a weapon, because thats what it is, sorry to break it to you Windcaller you arrogant bastard) in before it became the irrelevant power of irrelevant monks sitting up on a mountain. The Greybeards might as well give up the thu'um. They literally have zero reason to use it and they can worship the gods all the same without it.

 

And there is no honor in leaving your country to waste away because you are too weak to rule it.

 

- Stormcloaks/Ulfric not respecting Forsworn traditions by allowing them to honor their Gods.

 

The war against the Forsworn wasn't over religion.

 

- Ulfric surrendered to the Empire instead of dying a Glorious death, worthy of Ysgramor.

 

He spared his men dying in a pointless fight. He was intending on all of them to die as martyrs.

 

- Furthermore, Ulfric does not even give Tullius a trial or accept his surrender at the end. This is another way of proving Ulfric has no real honor. Principle above all, even in the face of your enemy. During the American Revolution, did GW hang Corn Wallace?

 

George Washington also lived during a time when war was "gentlemanly", which is a point that Tamriel is still quite a couple centuries (if not millenia) from. Any point in history before that general period of warfare, and Cornwallis likely would have been killed.

 

- The Stormcloak Jarls will undoubtedly be little pawns of Ulfric. Ulfric's cause is Charismatic after all and there Ultimate purpose is to MAKE him High King of Skyrim.

 

And they'll be happy to do it. If they don't like what Ulfric is doing, they can depose him.

 

- And again, it's not Ulfric's business who the moot chooses to be High King or Queen, to a certain degree. That's why the moot votes. His act of murdering Torygg proves at least to me, he has no intention of allowing the moot to choose freely. They chose Torygg, he didn't like their choice so he arranged his assassination, hehehe in full view of the court.

 

In this post: There was apparently a Moot before all this occurred, and big doesn't understand the point of the challenge. Back when these duels were the general way of things, Ulfric likely would have ascended by now, if not in name but at least in the bulk of the actual power behind the throne.

 

- During the Battle for Whiterun, Ulfric does not show up to meet the challenge he offered to Jarl B. He sends another in his stead.

 

Neither of the armies leaders fight in any of the battles until the final battle. And honestly I'm one to agree with Rikke on his motivations in not bothering.

 

Still want to argue it's the Empire who isn't respecting Nord traditions?

 

Yes. Talos worship is still banned, Ulfric has not been given the rights he gained in honorably sanctioned combat (Torygg agreed to the fight. Unless you can prove otherwise, we can only assume that they agreed that everything was fair game), and I'm not getting into how Tullius takes every moment in his talks with Rikke to spew crap about Nordic traditions.

 

Tullius who you bastards despise, even says at the end the Thalmor's days are numbered because relations between them are falling apart.

 

I hope I don't have to go dig up one my countless posts that explains how even if the Empire wins the civil war they're still doomed to fail. The assertions of a general trying to inspire his men don't negate the actual state of the Empire's military might and actual chances against the Dominion whenever they actually decide to fight against them. (if they ever even take the initiative)

 

Once the Civil War is over, the Thalmor will have no more reason to do do anything in Skyirm because the Empire kept it's word.

 

;D

[StormHammer81]

@imperistan

 

Well, then if that's your opinion, that's fine.

 

I think we both have a point on this and it just depends on a view of right and wrong.

 

Good and evil is a point of view and I can't change your view and I never would want to.

 

We argue with people we like and "debate" everything else.

 

As such there is a thing as winning a debate but still being wrong.

 

No one wins an argument.

 

There have been times in the past when I've had to go all Stormcloak on some people too, in order to win my freedom, although it was more like what happened in Hammerfell.

 

Of course that could also be compared to the Empire fighting in the Great War, although this time there was no WGC signed I wins New Vegas style :D

 

There is still something worth fighting for in the Empire of Talos, like fighting for Imperial freedom.

 

Freedom from the Thalmor, freedom from TM2.

 

Regardless of policy or what happened a bizillion years ago, this fight boils down to two things:

 

Do you wish to fight for the Empire of Talos and help restore the Empire to what it was, fight for Imperial independence OR

 

Do you wish to fight for Skyrim province to have it's independence restored, although with the understanding, that Ulfric will inevitably define that independence?

Edited July 10, 2012 by bigmagy1981

[imperistan]

There is still something worth fighting for in the Empire of Talos, like fighting for Imperial freedom.

 

This isn't the Empire of Talos. That Empire died 200 years ago. The Empire has always been defined by the one who founded them, and with the Septim Empire specifically it has always been defined by how the Septims reigned. Mede and his ilk are not Septims. This is not the Septim Empire, its the Mede Empire.

 

(and before its asserted, no, borders do not define an Empire. If so, then we should be referring to the Empire as the Allessian or Reman Empire.

 

Do you wish to fight for the Empire of Talos and help restore the Empire to what it was, fight for Imperial independence OR

 

Do you wish to fight for Skyrim province to have it's independence restored, although with the understanding, that Ulfric will inevitably define that independence?

 

I'm fighting for neither. We can't restore the Septim Empire and the Mede Empire will never be able to recover. Skyrims independence is just a red herring to what the Stormcloak cause is really going to end up winning for Tamriel. I don't fight for the Stormcloaks because of Ulfric. I think hes a bloody idiot and personally I wish I could take his place. I fight because Skyrim's independence will inevitably lead to something new for Tamriel. Something that may be could be created in the name of Talos or perhaps just in the spirit of uniting Tamriel once again. And this isn't going into how mankind also has far, far greater chances of being spared genocide for it as well.

[StormHammer81]

Then we disagree sir.

 

This is still The Empire of Talos. Who rules it whenever is irrelevant. Talos founded it and now we have an heir of sorts who in theory could rule it again.

[BrettM]

I don't fight for the Stormcloaks because of Ulfric. I think hes a bloody idiot and personally I wish I could take his place. I fight because Skyrim's independence will inevitably lead to something new for Tamriel.

Bravo! Very well said. While I don't agree with you on everything (particularly where the Greybeards are concerned), I could not agree with you more on this masterful summary of my own sentiments regarding the rebellion.

[StormHammer81]

Something new...

 

You mean something old.

[Kraeten]

Few people who started wars in our own world ever did give their enemies any sort of trial before they either killed them or exiled them. Those that came in defense and/or were defending against an invading (or rebelling for that matter) force may have, but those that started these kinds of wars? Never. AT least not as far as I know at any rate. Either way, these occasions if they ever occurred were very seldom, and no where near the norm to the point that it should be expected.

 

So, in your own way, you agree it is stupid to criticize Tullius for denying Ulfric a trial. Glad we could at least agree on that.

 

Or, he would have been executed and whatever point he would have made would have been thrown in the mud by it.

 

That is certainly a possibility. I'm not denying it would have been a gamble to stay, but imo it would have been worth the risk. The more support Ulfric could have gained, the less wasteful the civil war could have been. Skyrim is much weaker in the short term for having suffered such a conflict.

 

So its the word of Solitude (the seat of the High King as well as the Imperial presence in Skyrim) versus a raving bunch of brutes (lets face it, Ulfric's the only one in the Stormcloak army thats really charismatic, besides may be Ralof) in Windhelm.

 

Which brings up another reason I dislike Ulfric. Take him out of the equation and is there really a Stormcloak cause? He was probably the only Nord who could articulate for the disgruntled number of Nords why they needed to fight for Skyrim's independence. Without him, they're just, as you put it concisely "a raving bunch of brutes". The mark of a cause that is truly supported and believed in imo, is when you have a steady supply of men and women who can carry the torch. And I don't just mean soldiers. I'm also talking about passionate idealists who are willing and able to lead. Ulfric doesn't have that, from what I can tell.

 

I suppose what I'm driving at, is the war is less about the Nords wanting independence and more about Ulfric's ability to manipulate those around him. For me, that means Skyrim isn't ready for independence.

 

His leaving may have had some effect

 

Ulfric's flight from Solitude made all the difference. That gesture of caution/cowardice could be understood by the people of Solitude and Skyrim in so many ways, and hardly any of them are near the realm of admirable. Fundamentally, it showed that ancient tradition or no, what Ulfric did wasn't noble. It showed he was more afraid of retribution than standing behind his actions. Of course the people of Solitude would be outraged and Roggvir had to face that alone. And was his name remembered fondly by Ulfric and his men? Nope. Not even a mention of his name.

 

Do you honestly believe Ulfric was going to be allowed on a soap box? He was GAGGED by the Imperials the entire time when they were taking him to be executed, and it wasn't just because of the Thu'um. He was going to die with that gag in his mouth and no one in Solitude nor Tullius' entourage in their right mind was going to let Ulfric go un-gagged for the entire time they had him in custody. Martyrs are that much more effective when you actually allow them to say something to the witnesses of their execution.

 

I'm pretty sure Tullius kept Ulfric gagged strictly because of the Thu'um. He had precious little to fear from what few families who lived in Helgen. Those citizens would in all likelihood be firmly in support of the Empire. Would Tullius fear his own soldiers might be swayed? Again, that's unlikely. Tullius commanded a great deal of respect from his men. And all of the Stormcloak prisoners were to be executed anyway, so there's nothing to fear from letting them hear some speech.

 

Yes. Talos worship is still banned, Ulfric has not been given the rights he gained in honorably sanctioned combat (Torygg agreed to the fight. Unless you can prove otherwise, we can only assume that they agreed that everything was fair game),

 

We can't assume ANYTHING about the terms of the duel, as we know NOTHING about them. That information just isn't provided.

 

and I'm not getting into how Tullius takes every moment in his talks with Rikke to spew crap about Nordic traditions.

 

He's not a Nord, so why should we hold him as accountable as Ulfric for failing to honor Nord traditions/culture? It's not like Tullius' platform is upholding and safeguarding the Nord way of life. :whistling:

Edited July 10, 2012 by Kraeten

[fraquar]

No professional gambler in their right mind would have stayed in Solitude, thats the equivalent of expecting to win with a 2-7 offsuit in 'Hold 'em". The risk so outweighs the reward it's idiotic to continue. Just throw the hand in and live to play another day - which is exactly what Ulfric did.

 

This is about as stupid as my suggesting Ulfric get a trial. :wallbash:

[Kraeten]

No professional gambler in their right mind would have stayed in Solitude, thats the equivalent of expecting to win with a 2-7 offsuit in 'Hold 'em". The risk so outweighs the reward it's idiotic to continue. Just throw the hand in and live to play another day - which is exactly what Ulfric did.

 

No professional gambler would have stayed in Windhelm either after the Legion had retaken all of the forts around it. Sometimes making a grand gesture is more important than taking the safest path.

Edited July 10, 2012 by Kraeten

[StormHammer81]

God Bless you Kraeten.

 

Your wisdom and patience are truly remarkable.

 

Hell, I'd give you a Princess and a Tri-force if I could... But you already have both !!! :D

 

I'm waiting with bells on for the DLC to come out where sometime after defeating Ulfric, Talos worship gets restored and Hammerfell becomes allies with the Empire again... And even if we don't get both I'm sure we'll at the very least get one.

 

Especially from what Tullius, Rikke and some of the others were saying. It's pretty much writing on the wall, whoever wins this Civil War will face the Thalmor.

 

For you Imperials out there planning on creating a long-term character, I'd strongly recommend saving the Dark Brotherhood and ahh having that little Dialogue with Titus Mede II.

 

Getting him to resign will further encourage an end to the WGC.

 

See? If the Empire is going to end up fighting the Thalmor anyways, there's no since bashing the Empire for what TM2 did. And if we just fought a Civil War over Talos worship, for the life of me I don't see the Empire honoring that any longer once the War brakes out or Titus Mede dies, which either way will sooner or later end the WGC.

 

AND if the Thalmor weren't in Skyrim before Markarth Incident, because of Ulfric, it makes sense they won't have proper justification for the Imperials to allow them to stay afterwards. This is confirmed from their own Dossier. Ulfric' death thwarts their operations in Skyrim. No reason to be there without the Stormcloaks rebellion. And I believe the exception mentioned below refers to Elenwen's presence at Helgen.

 

So, this means there IS a light at the end of the tunnel for the Empire of Talos after all.

 

 

"Courage and perseverance have a magical talisman, before which difficulties disappear and obstacles vanish into air." - John Henry Eden

 

"The incident at Helgen is an example where an exception had to be made - obviously Ulfric's death would have dramatically increased the chance of an Imperial victory and thus harmed our overall position in Skyrim." - Thalmor Dossier on Ulfric Stormcloak

 

LONG LIVE THE EMPIRE !!!

Edited July 10, 2012 by bigmagy1981