Who are the "Good Guys" in this war?

[Deleted4666244User]

Ulfric was better that Torygg, most say, so it kind of paints Ulfric in a bad light. Plus if not for Ulfric Elisif would be high queen by default, even if Ulfric had more of a right thanks to killing Torygg, i doubt i can side with him 100% of the time knowing he won only by using the coward's way (disarm a weaker opponent with a shout, then kill him). i do not even use a shout with any of my character unless i really need to, i could use it, but my Character is better than most enemies i see no reason to.

 

it is a case of win-win for the Jarl of Windhelm: do not use a shout to disarm the high king, win the duel. use a shout to disarm him, win the duel a lot easier.

 

using a shout for a warrior=coward in my book ( i rarely use a shout unless i need to (running the risk of dying and need slow time to recover from dragon attack))

 

note i am not saying that Elisif's Claim> Ulfric's i am just calling Ulfric a coward for using a shout on a weaker opponent. he may have the only true claim considering that he killed Torygg, but i am saying that he got that claim in a cowardly way and needs all the good publicity he can get.

Edited July 11, 2012 by Guest

[imperistan]

Well, I think what old dude was more less trying to say here was if Ulfric cared so much about making a point, he shouldn't need to run away

 

If he didn't, he wouldn't have made his point. Do I need to explain this again?

 

What he's done is set a precedent on doing some nasty sh*t to feed your own ego and ambition. Somone will undoubtedly find a way or come pretty damn close to killing Ulfric eventually. It's like if Ulfric can do this, why can't everyone!?!?!?!?

 

Lets just pretend Tiber Septim didn't conquer Tamriel for any reason other than his own ambition.

 

And another thing, I think it's only right that if Ulfric is going to take away Elisif's husband, then she should get the crown. That's a fair deal. True, this will NEVER bring her husband back to her, but she should have some solace. How many times should we allow Ulfric to... for lack of a better word, get away with raping this woman's life?

 

And you miss the entire point of these duels. You don't duel a High King for his position just so his wife can take it. There's zero point in it.

 

No, he was thinking and he was RIGHT. You say that all we know is that Ulfric and Torygg agreed to this thing and the rest isn't that important. Something is missing here. This isn't the full story. It can't be. IF annddd this is a BIG IF it was a legitimate duel, then WHY HAVE ROGVIR hold a gate for you? THINK. Wait for it... If you have a heart of gold and you just want justice and peace and all that cushy stuff, why ask someone ELSE to risk their life and their family's life to get your a$$ out of the city in one piece? Now, if Ulfric had escaped on his own, that would be one thing. I say, the other element here was that Ulfric KNEW he was going to do something WRONG which is why Rogvir was put into that position to start with. Not honorable to have someone else take your fall, it will always catch up with you, always. Ask yourself, would Conan the Barbarian do something like that? Would a real leader, who takes responsibility and accountability leave someone to die for him? And furthermore, all of Solitude knew what happened. The Imperials did not try and cover up Ulfric murdering the High King, that doesn't even make sense and most certainly is not lore friendly.

 

I'm done responding to you. I'm going to have to start insulting you if I respond further.

 

You said the offer of a trial from one enemy to another was seldom and not to be expected. If you meant something else, you should have chosen your words more carefully.

 

Read what I said again and comprehend what I said.

 

That is a possibility, not a certainty.

 

Facepalm. They executed Rogvir for holding a gate open. What do you think is going to happen to Ulfric? You clearly aren't even trying to think about what you're saying.

 

Ulfric had just surrendered to Tullius when we first meet him. That act was just as dangerous as what I proposed. If not more so, since Tullius is far more experienced than Elisef.

 

Ulfric also had no route of escape. Not to mention that he only surrendered to spare his men a pointless death. Being executed (note that Ulfric at the time would have presumed he and his men were going to be carted to Cyrodiil) at least would have cemented them as martyrs. Dying in a random ambush, not so much.

 

You mean what Skyrim's independence MAY lead to. You can speculate all you like, but you have no way of knowing what Ulfric will really do with the power he'd gain as High King. He could just sit on his hands while the Dominion stomps over Cyrodiil and Hammerfell.

 

Its not about Ulfric. He's a red herring. Skyrim's independence is going to destabilize the Empire and eventually collapse it. This is going to lead to the Dominion moving to pick up the pieces, and its there that whats left of mankind will have to decide whether they'll stand together and attack or fall separated as they sit and wait. Thats the moment I'm fighting for, the final decisive push that will decide whether the Dominion will be stood up against, or left to continue their silent undermining and eventual straightforward genocide.

 

It can go bad, and perhaps the Dominion will overrun Tamriel (though even then they'll still have a hell of a hard time doing it, and it will still be a bloody conflict for both sides). But it could also go as I hope, and we'll see the Dominion fall under the combined forces of man. With the Empire, this hope will never see the light of day. Bad blood and old conflicts of the Empire's causing will maintain mankind's non-unity. Failing, corrupted leadership will impede.

 

And how will Ulfric be killed? So long as he has the Thu'um none of the Jarls can best him in a duel. And how will the Jarls depose him, when Ulfric gave half of them their power to begin with? Not to mention the army is loyal to him first before the Jarls.

 

You overestimate Ulfric's voice, as well as his men's true loyalties. Those from Windhelm yes, they will support him no matter what, and so will many others. But not everyone in Skyrim fights for him nor even the Empire. They fight for their homes, their families.

 

Ulfric may be charismatic, but that only goes so far until its only a unifying cry to fight, and no longer a purpose to fight for as you move further from Eastmarch.

 

Indeed the war will begin sooner rather than later, which is why the civil war is so stupidly timed and why Ulfric needed to make his war as clean as possible. It was stupid to sow such animosity between Skyrim and the Empire with war so close on the horizon. A war where they may very well need to work together if they're to win.

 

Its the fact that the war hasn't yet happened that the Civil War must happen. And besides that, with the Dragonborn's involvement, one side of the war does make for a clean victory.

 

Its also good to note that war with the Dominion is only on the horizon based on knowledge we the players have. Most everyone else does not realize what we do, because most everyone else does not have the access to the information that we have. (as well as the general education to decipher how it all fits together). As far as Ulfric would have been able to guess, the war with the Dominion was still a long ways off if it was ever going to occur before the Dominion up and started it when they were at the full strength to do so.

 

Why do you think the propaganda was able to stick in the first place? BECAUSE Ulfric ran.

 

There's no sense even bothering if you're going to ignore the reality of what the people of Solitude (and in other cities) were going to actually know, see, and hear.

 

 

And here I started to believe Mac when he said I had patience.

[MightyZ0G]

if Ulfric really did challenge the High King legitimately and the duel was according to tradition and law then Ulfric had no reason to run or even have a gate kept open for him so he could run away.

 

if the challenge was all above board he could have beaten Torygg and claimed the crown.

 

but if you listen to Ulfric's conversations in Windhelm, he says that he killed Torygg to send a message to all the other Jarls.

[imperistan]

Its almost as if you have to take a rock, paint the point on it (With a splash of thinking), and beat it into them. :wallbash:

[BrettM]

you mean after the Empire released him instead of letting the Thalmor take him away for worshipping Talos?

the Empire backed him up about Talos even though that risked war with the Thalmor.

instead of letting things quieten down he started the rebellion and made the terms of WGC a factor in the rebellion, guaranteeing that the Thalmor would take more of an interest in Skyrim.

The Empire imprisoned Ulfric after they reneged on their deal. Ulfric's father died while he was in prison, keeping him from attending the funeral. He was released later, when his sentence was completed, just like any other criminal who hasn't done anything worthy of life imprisonment or capital punishment.

 

You seem to be implying that the Thalmor demanded to take Ulfric away after Markarth but the Empire refused. Where is this established? You make it sound as if the Thalmor had no real interest in Skyrim but were just willing to take advantage of a lucky opportunity that Ulfric was stupid enough to create. But, in fact, the Thalmor deliberately manipulated the situation to create that opportunity, doing everything in their power to stir up dissent between the Empire and Skyrim.

 

The Thalmor had already let Ulfric escape their imprisonment during the Great War because they thought he would be useful to them. They didn't want Ulfric in one of their prisons after Markarth; they wanted him running loose to start a rebellion. The rebellion didn't make the Thalmor take more of an interest in Skyrim; the Thalmor planned for and encouraged the rebellion to give them an excuse to send in more force. If Ulfric had tried to let things quiet down after Markarth, the Thalmor would have found another way to stir it up again. They might have put more pressure on Ulfric to keep him agitated, or they might have used other assets who were more cooperative. Either way, they would have gotten the civil war they wanted.

[MightyZ0G]

@BrettM whether the Thalmor engineered the situation with Ulfric or just took advantage of it isn't that important (except to the Stormcloaks).

Ulfric is either a puppet or an egotistical fool.

what matters is that Ulfric's rebellion is bad for Skyrim (and the Empire).

 

 

@Imperistan

source

The Stormcloaks were the main organization of rebels in Skyrim's Stormcloak Rebellion. Strongest in eastern Skyrim and based in Windhelm, they are those who followed Ulfric Stormcloak after he killed High King Torygg and called for an end to the ban on Talos worship

 

what ban on Talos worship? it may have been in the WGC but it wasn't and still isn't really in effect in Skyrim.

there are shrines to Talos everywhere. the High King worshipped Talos before he was killed.

Ulfric's claim that the Empire has betrayed Talos and Skyrim by banning Talos worship is empty.

the evidence is all over Skyrim.

 

on my first play through I thought that Whiterun supported the Stormcloaks because there is a very public shrine to Talos with a priest giving a sermon that can be heard almost everywhere you go in the Cloud District. that had to be right. only the Stormcloaks would allow such an open disregard for the WGC.

but when I sided with Ulfric WR was besieged and the Jarl was deposed.

well so much for Talos being the reason for the rebellion.

 

this section from the UESP is worth reading

High King Torygg was the Jarl of Solitude and High King of Skyrim until his death at the hands of Ulfric Stormcloak around 4E 201. Torygg's father Istlad ruled as High King for almost twenty-five years, and upon his death, the moot formally named Torygg his successor (despite the disruptive presence of Ulfric, who used the forum to voice his desire for Skyrim's independence). Torygg found Ulfric's calls for independence moving, and respected him for voicing such a bold, borderline treasonous opinion. That is why when Ulfric came to see him in Solitude, Torygg intended to hear more of his arguments for independence with an open mind; neither he nor his court suspected that Ulfric was there to challenge Torygg until it was too late to stop it.

 

According to Ulfric, he challenged Torygg for the right to be High King, knocked him to the ground with the thu'um, then dispatched him with a sword. Some others say Ulfric "shouted him to pieces" or "ripped him asunder". The Empire and a number of the Jarls, however, viewed the killing of Torygg not as the result of an honorable duel, but as murder, due to the fact that Torygg was of a young age while Ulfric was at his prime, and that Ulfric had not exhausted his diplomatic solutions. According to his court wizard Sybille Stentor, Torygg had held Ulfric in high regard, and he may have been persuaded if Ulfric had simply asked Torygg to stand firm.

 

so rather than use diplomacy and bring stability and order to Skyrim, Ulfric used the thu'um to gain an advantage in a duel.

how very honourable.

 

if Skyrim's interests were his prime concern then he would have been able to unite all the Jarls behind Torygg and Skyrim would have been united against the Thalmor and may have even been granted independance from the Empire peacefully (the Empire let Hammerfell go because they wouldn't accept the WGC).

everything that Ulfric has done seems to be for his own benefit rather than the good of Skyrim.

[Kraeten]

Read what I said again and comprehend what I said.

 

Okay, so it is another one sided argument on your part.

 

Facepalm. They executed Rogvir for holding a gate open. What do you think is going to happen to Ulfric? You clearly aren't even trying to think about what you're saying.

 

I already explained why Roggvir was executed so quickly, and I don't care to repeat my argument.

 

Ulfric also had no route of escape. Not to mention that he only surrendered to spare his men a pointless death. Being executed (note that Ulfric at the time would have presumed he and his men were going to be carted to Cyrodiil) at least would have cemented them as martyrs. Dying in a random ambush, not so much.

 

Dying in battle should have held just as much appeal to a true Nord. If not more. That's not what Ulfric is however, he's a self aggrandizing egomaniac. Maybe when he'd fought alongside the Imperials he believed in doing the right thing, but somewhere along the line he became more interested in trying to be Talos.

 

 

Its not about Ulfric. He's a red herring.

 

The war is entirely about Ulfric. By waging war against half of Skyrim the country will be weaker just when it needs to be at its strongest. By killing Tullius at the climax of his rebellion, Ulfric then hurt his odds of a future alliance with Cyrodiil. He is sowing discord and disunity just when the races of man need to be on the same page. Ulfric may not in fact be working for the Thalmor, but he's certainly making their job easier.

 

Skyrim's independence is going to destabilize the Empire and eventually collapse it.

 

This might be good for the idiots too stupid to worship Talos with some modicum of covertness, but such an event will be bloody for the people of Cyrodiil and anyone else who relies on the strength of the Empire.

 

This is going to lead to the Dominion moving to pick up the pieces, and its there that whats left of mankind will have to decide whether they'll stand together and attack or fall separated as they sit and wait.

 

The Dominion will wage war regardless if the Empire is dissolved or not. Which leaves us with two options. Option 1, we keep Cyrodiil Skyrim and High Rock united. Option 2, we destroy that unity and sow more bad blood between Cyrodiil and Skyim thus hurting any possibility of a future alliance. You want mankind to stand together, but you've already shot yourself in the foot by choosing to help Ulfric. It's one thing for Hammerfell to peacefully secede from the Empire, its another to forcefully do so.

 

 

thats the moment I'm fighting for

 

You're fighting for a hope, just as any Imperial supporter would.

 

It can go bad, and perhaps the Dominion will overrun Tamriel

 

While that's certainly the worst case scenario for your plan, what bothers me is you are deliberately throwing Cyrodiil under a bus. An aldmeri victory over Cyrodiil is nearly a certainty if we were to take your approach of "I don't like how this works, so I'm just going to break it and hope something better comes along."

 

But it could also go as I hope, and we'll see the Dominion fall under the combined forces of man.

 

The prospect of which you are hurting by supporting a man more concerned about his own pursuit of power. A man who deliberately hurt his own chances of a future alliance with Cyrodiil.

 

With the Empire, this hope will never see the light of day.

 

That is entirely your opinion, and a rather false one too.

 

Bad blood and old conflicts of the Empire's causing will maintain mankind's non-unity.

 

Most of mankind would still be united if not for Ulfric and his petty rebellion. There may be bad blood between Hammerfell and Cyrodiil, but Hammerfell peacefully seceded from the Empire. They haven't actually taken up arms against one another. That's a big distinction.

 

You overestimate Ulfric's voice, as well as his men's true loyalties. Those from Windhelm yes, they will support him no matter what, and so will many others. But not everyone in Skyrim fights for him nor even the Empire. They fight for their homes, their families.

 

And who is in a position to protect their homes and families? Some Jarl unhappy with Ulfric? Or Ulfric and his army?! You accused me of being dense, but you won't even recognize the fact that if Ulfric gains the throne he has the more than enough means to keep it from all comers where his native Skyrim is concerned. The only reason you should be fighting for Ulfric is because you believe in him. To do otherwise is to willfully ignore the kind of man he is and the threat his rule represents.

 

Its the fact that the war hasn't yet happened that the Civil War must happen. And besides that, with the Dragonborn's involvement, one side of the war does make for a clean victory.

 

A clean victory would be going around Whiterun and accepting Tullius' surrender. Instead Ulfric made the war far more destructive with his infantile "You're either with me, or against me" attitude.

Edited July 11, 2012 by Kraeten

[Deleted4666244User]

i thought i'd throw this over here, but Elisif seems to have the majority of the ruling Elite (the Jarls), so i don't know about most people, but i think that even if Ulfric has the right of being high king by one tradtion, if the Jarls want someone else, his tradition no matter.

[BrettM]

@BrettM whether the Thalmor engineered the situation with Ulfric or just took advantage of it isn't that important (except to the Stormcloaks).

The importance is in what it demonstrates about the abilities, intent, and power of the Thalmor. If the first case is true, the Thalmor are machiavellian manipulators with a long-term plan to rot the Empire from within before crushing it. If the second case is true, the Thalmor are simple opportunists who are no more dangerous than any other reasonably intelligent foe.

 

what matters is that Ulfric's rebellion is bad for Skyrim (and the Empire).

That's one conclusion that someone can draw from the facts as currently known. Not everyone agrees, however, that it is the conclusion that best fits the facts. That's kind of the point of this thread and others like it: to connect the dots and see where they lead, and to debate the merits and flaws of the opposing theories. Just baldly stating your conclusion is not very productive, since we all know what conclusions are being debated in any Empire/Stormcloak discussion. The important thing is to show your thought process and open it up for criticism, as many posters in this thread have done and are doing.

 

what ban on Talos worship? it may have been in the WGC but it wasn't and still isn't really in effect in Skyrim.

there are shrines to Talos everywhere. the High King worshipped Talos before he was killed.

Ulfric's claim that the Empire has betrayed Talos and Skyrim by banning Talos worship is empty.

the evidence is all over Skyrim.

The Temple of Talos in Markarth is empty, full of trash, and has no priesthood. (Compare to the nearby Temple of Dibella, which has several priestesses.) The Temple of the Divines in Solitude has had the Talos shrine removed and a priesthood that denies his divinity. The Thalmor are actively arresting and killing other Talos worshippers, whether directly affiliated with the Stormcloaks, affiliated with the Blades, or unaffiliated. You can blackmail Rarek by threatening to rat him out to the Thalmor for his secret Talos worship, and you can curry favor with Ondolemar by getting evidence on Ogmund. In short, the evidence is all over Skyrim that the ban on Talos is very much in effect and being put more into effect each day.

 

on my first play through I thought that Whiterun supported the Stormcloaks because there is a very public shrine to Talos with a priest giving a sermon that can be heard almost everywhere you go in the Cloud District. that had to be right. only the Stormcloaks would allow such an open disregard for the WGC.

but when I sided with Ulfric WR was besieged and the Jarl was deposed.

well so much for Talos being the reason for the rebellion.

When you first enter Whiterun, which is the most strategically-important city in Skyrim, Balgruuf neither fully supports the Empire nor fully denies the rebellion. He does not allow the Legion to garrison his hold and there is no Imperial Legate stationed in Whiterun as there is in other Empire-supporting holds. OTOH, he seems to have a great deal of personal dislike for Ulfric, and he believes that the political and economic ties between the Empire and Skyrim are not to be broken lightly. Furthermore, like the jarl himself, his population is about evenly split on the Empire/Stormcloak question.

 

Balgruuf is sitting on the fence and both sides are trying to get him to make a full committment to their point of view. Neither side can afford to ignore Whiterun because of its strategic location in Skyrim, which is why the battle for Whiterun is the true opening engagement in the civil war. The rebellion is about Talos. The attack on Whiterun is about the strategy needed to win the war.

 

(the Empire let Hammerfell go because they wouldn't accept the WGC)

"Titus II was forced to officially renounce Hammerfell as an Imperial province in order to preserve the hard-won peace treaty. The Redguards, understandably, looked on this as a betrayal. In this, the Thalmor certainly achieved one of their long-term goals by sowing lasting bitterness between Hammerfell and the Empire." -- The Great War

 

A signed treaty has the force of law, and the Thalmor had every right to demand that the Empire enforce that law on its citizens or be considered in violation of the treaty. The Empire had three choices: 1) enforce the law and treat Hammerfell as a province in rebellion, 2) resume the war by fighting on Hammerfell's side, or 3) declare that Hammerfell was no longer the responsibility of the Empire. The Empire chose to repudiate the actions of Hammerfell and kick it out of the Empire, leaving the Thalmor free to take the whole thing if they could instead of just the parts given away by the treaty.

 

There was no diplomacy involved with Hammerfell. Hammerfell never asked to be released from the Empire. Hammerfell was kicked out, and they were kicked out only because the Empire had no ability to force them to obey the treaty while the ink was still wet on it. Skyrim, however, begins 26 years after the WGC was signed, and the Empire has recovered enough strength that they can put up a fight against any provincial rebellion. They aren't about to let Skyrim become independent, no matter how nicely Ulfric or anyone else asks them. The Empire can't afford to lose the taxes and resources that they are extracting from Skyrim.

[sajuukkhar9000]

The importance is in what it demonstrates about the abilities, intent, and power of the Thalmor. If the first case is true, the Thalmor are machiavellian manipulators with a long-term plan to rot the Empire from within before crushing it. If the second case is true, the Thalmor are simple opportunists who are no more dangerous than any other reasonably intelligent foe.

Given that The thalmor's grand plan is to annihilate mankind not only from existence, but from possibility itself, I would think they are the first.