Who are the "Good Guys" in this war?

[StormHammer81]

Tullius is a better gambler than Ulfric anyways.

[BrettM]

And was his name remembered fondly by Ulfric and his men? Nope. Not even a mention of his name.

This turns out not to be the case. If the Stormcloaks win, there are guards in or just outside Solitude who say that it's too bad they couldn't have taken Solitude in time to save Roggvir.

 

AND if the Thalmor weren't in Skyrim before Markarth Incident, because of Ulfric, it makes sense they won't have proper justification for the Imperials to allow them to stay afterwards. This is confirmed from their own Dossier. Ulfric' death thwarts their operations in Skyrim. No reason to be there without the Stormcloaks rebellion.

The Thalmor who killed Acilius Bolar in Skyrim and are hunting Delphine and Esbern are not there because of the Stormcloak rebellion, but because of the clause in the WGC that disbanded the Blades and allowed the Thalmor to hunt down the remnants. Ancano's presence at the College of Winterhold has nothing to do with the Stormcloak rebellion, but is an attempt to gain control of an important power base that the Empire might use against them in the future.

 

The Thalmor were going to be in Skyrim sooner or later because they want to slowly tighten their grip on the whole Empire, not just Cyrodiil. Given their losses during the Great War, it just took them a little time to get around to Skyrim. The rebellion was only an additional excuse, but one which they planned on and helped bring into being. Ulfric was still loyal to the Empire at the time he took Markarth or he wouldn't have turned it over to the Legion. He did not start his rebellion until after the Thalmor crackdown there.

[MightyZ0G]

you mean after the Empire released him instead of letting the Thalmor take him away for worshipping Talos?

the Empire backed him up about Talos even though that risked war with the Thalmor.

instead of letting things quieten down he started the rebellion and made the terms of WGC a factor in the rebellion, guaranteeing that the Thalmor would take more of an interest in Skyrim.

[StormHammer81]

@Brett

 

You're not wrong, the Thalmor are indeed looking for any and every excuse and/or pawn which would give them an edge over the Empire. However, the Thalmor don't need the WGC to hunt down the Blades. They murdered what? couple hundred before the War even began. Truth though, that is another thing TM2 is going down for.

 

@mighty zog

 

Well I'll be Gat Damned. The Empire DID release Ulfric instead of turning him over to the Thalmor after all didn't they? Yeah. What a way to repay them. I would be willing to bet the Empire wasn't turning over ANYONE to the Thalmor whatsoever until after the Markarth incident. :thumbsup: Something else Ulfric is going down for.

Edited July 11, 2012 by bigmagy1981

[Kraeten]

This turns out not to be the case. If the Stormcloaks win, there are guards in or just outside Solitude who say that it's too bad they couldn't have taken Solitude in time to save Roggvir.

 

Clearly I forgot about that, I stand corrected.

[imperistan]

So, in your own way, you agree it is stupid to criticize Tullius for denying Ulfric a trial. Glad we could at least agree on that.

 

No?

 

That is certainly a possibility. I'm not denying it would have been a gamble to stay, but imo it would have been worth the risk. The more support Ulfric could have gained, the less wasteful the civil war could have been. Skyrim is much weaker in the short term for having suffered such a conflict.

 

So you think that that staying in Solitude and being executed, without any chance to get on a soap box (and let the world know uninterrupted and not corrupted what his intentions were) and with little chance of convincing anyone in Solitude proper regardless, is going to turn out better than what Ulfric did in saving his own life while at the same time allowing his intentions to reach the rest of the world without being muddied by Imperial propaganda straight from the get-go?

 

Are you dense or are you just not thinking very hard about what you're saying?

 

I suppose what I'm driving at, is the war is less about the Nords wanting independence and more about Ulfric's ability to manipulate those around him. For me, that means Skyrim isn't ready for independence.

 

And I'd agree, if Skyrim's independence didn't have greater implications beyond the inevitably short reign that Ulfric may gain. As I said, I don't fight for Ulfric. I fight for what Skyrim's independence is going to lead to.

 

Personally, I think following a Stormcloak victory that Ulfric will reign as High King for a while and that eventually either he'll get killed and/or deposed by the Jarls. After that we'll either see A, Skyrim tearing itself apart again (which I doubt) or a true and full return to how Skyrim used to be run, with the Jarl's meeting to select their High King. But that isn't going to matter unless you think some internal strife some 20-30 years down the line means anything to the war to save mankind that will happen well before that.

 

Ulfric's flight from Solitude made all the difference. That gesture of caution/cowardice could be understood by the people of Solitude and Skyrim in so many ways, and hardly any of them are near the realm of admirable. Fundamentally, it showed that ancient tradition or no, what Ulfric did wasn't noble. It showed he was more afraid of retribution than standing behind his actions.

 

There's a massive difference between being afraid of retribution, and wanting insure that your point can actually be made. This is what you need to get through your head. Solitude isn't a bastion of fairness and goodwill, Ulfric was going be dragged through the mud all the way to the chopping block, period. His point was not going to be made to anyone.

 

Just THINK for a second. What do you think the people of Solitude are going to believe? That this bound and gagged man, who they will have been told just killed their High-King in cold blood for nothing more than personal gain, actually has intentions beyond personal gain? Or that this bound and gagged man is a traitor who killed his king in a vain attempt to steal away his throne?

 

Do you seriously think anyone in Solitude is going know that a duel took place beyond perhaps the muddied rumors that'll be drowned out by the emotional upheaval that propaganda ultimately would have (and did) cause? Do you honestly believe that Ulfric would be allowed to make his case? To even speak again after he's arrested?

 

I'm pretty sure Tullius kept Ulfric gagged strictly because of the Thu'um.

 

You'd be surprised what a man's last words can do in the minds of others. Those in Helgen might have been Imperial supporters, but if Ulfrics last words were heard, eventually they would reach the rest of Skyrim.

 

And besides that I was making the point of what would happen to Ulfric had he stayed in Solitude. Even without the Thu'um he would not have been allowed to speak.

 

We can't assume ANYTHING about the terms of the duel, as we know NOTHING about them. That information just isn't provided.

 

Except we can. If we can't, then you must admit that the duel was not dishonorable.

 

No professional gambler would have stayed in Windhelm either after the Legion had retaken all of the forts around it. Sometimes making a grand gesture is more important than taking the safest path.

 

By the time Windhelm is getting read to be besieged, Ulfric has already lost. And his mind (and in the minds of virtually every other Nord warrior) dying in battle will be better than running away to live for slightly longer. See this song for the sentiment:

 

From birth we're taught

How to survive.

We're taught how war is waged.

And there are no men now alive

Who stop our wild rampage.

 

Light at heart we bide or bane

Whatever death awaits.

Norsemen live without regrets,

We accept our woven fate.

 

So fearlessly we charge ahead,

There is no time to hesitate.

 

Don't despair, show no fear,

Live your life without regrets.

Don't despair and show no fear

In the face of a certain death!

 

A coward thinks he'll always live

If he keeps himself from strife;

Old age leaves no rest and peace,

Though spears may spare his life.

 

We don't mourn

A friend that fell

Or dread the day

We'll fall ourselves.

Warriors don't go to Hel,

'Cause we know

Ygg will greet us well.

 

So fearlessly we charge ahead,

There is no time to hesitate.

 

Don't despair, show no fear,

Live your life without regrets.

Don't despair and show no fear

In the face of a certain death!

 

So raise your horns

To those who died.

Let's drink to

Fallen friends tonight.

Let's celebrate their glory life.

We'll meet again in Valhall

When we die!

When we die!

When we die!

 

The Empire DID release Ulfric instead of turning him over to the Thalmor after all didn't they? Yeah. What a way to repay them. I would be willing to bet the Empire wasn't turning over ANYONE to the Thalmor whatsoever until after the Markarth incident.

 

They might not have handed him over with a nice bow, but its the Empire's duty to defend its citizens. They didn't do that with Ulfric. Treaty be damned.

 

That a government is willing to let many of its citizens die without any repercussions is just terrible, especially when we're dealing with an enemy force that the EMPIRE DEFEATED.

[StormHammer81]

So you think that that staying in Solitude and being executed, without any chance to get on a soap box (and let the world know uninterrupted and not corrupted what his intentions were) and with little chance of convincing anyone in Solitude proper regardless, is going to turn out better than what Ulfric did in saving his own life while at the same time allowing his intentions to reach the rest of the world without being muddied by Imperial propaganda straight from the get-go?

 

Are you dense or are you just not thinking very hard about what you're saying?

 

Well, I think what old dude was more less trying to say here was if Ulfric cared so much about making a point, he shouldn't need to run away. Such as Heimskr, who curses the Empire every day and keeps coming back for more. I still stand by what I said earlier about the whole thing being a shady Black Op. Personally I've never heard of someone winning a Sport or a Contest legit and then running away. Something there doesn't add up - Say what you will.

 

Personally, I think following a Stormcloak victory that Ulfric will reign as High King for a while and that eventually either he'll get killed and/or deposed by the Jarls. After that we'll either see A, Skyrim tearing itself apart again (which I doubt) or a true and full return to how Skyrim used to be run, with the Jarl's meeting to select their High King. But that isn't going to matter unless you think some internal strife some 20-30 years down the line means anything to the war to save mankind that will happen well before that.

 

I agree, it's going to be a sh*t storm if Ulfric wins. What he's done is set a precedent on doing some nasty sh*t to feed your own ego and ambition. Somone will undoubtedly find a way or come pretty damn close to killing Ulfric eventually. It's like if Ulfric can do this, why can't everyone!?!?!?!?

 

And another thing, I think it's only right that if Ulfric is going to take away Elisif's husband, then she should get the crown. That's a fair deal. True, this will NEVER bring her husband back to her, but she should have some solace. How many times should we allow Ulfric to... for lack of a better word, get away with raping this woman's life?

 

There's a massive difference between being afraid of retribution, and wanting insure that your point can actually be made. This is what you need to get through your head. Solitude isn't a bastion of fairness and goodwill, Ulfric was going be dragged through the mud all the way to the chopping block, period. His point was not going to be made to anyone.

 

Just THINK for a second. What do you think the people of Solitude are going to believe? That this bound and gagged man, who they will have been told just killed their High-King in cold blood for nothing more than personal gain, actually has intentions beyond personal gain? Or that this bound and gagged man is a traitor who killed his king in a vain attempt to steal away his throne?

 

Do you seriously think anyone in Solitude is going know that a duel took place beyond perhaps the muddied rumors that'll be drowned out by the emotional upheaval that propaganda ultimately would have (and did) cause? Do you honestly believe that Ulfric would be allowed to make his case? To even speak again after he's arrested?

 

No, he was thinking and he was RIGHT. You say that all we know is that Ulfric and Torygg agreed to this thing and the rest isn't that important. Something is missing here. This isn't the full story. It can't be. IF annddd this is a BIG IF it was a legitimate duel, then WHY HAVE ROGVIR hold a gate for you? :) THINK. :) Wait for it... If you have a heart of gold and you just want justice and peace and all that cushy stuff, why ask someone ELSE to risk their life and their family's life to get your a$$ out of the city in one piece? Now, if Ulfric had escaped on his own, that would be one thing. I say, the other element here was that Ulfric KNEW he was going to do something WRONG which is why Rogvir was put into that position to start with. Not honorable to have someone else take your fall, it will always catch up with you, always. Ask yourself, would Conan the Barbarian do something like that? Would a real leader, who takes responsibility and accountability leave someone to die for him? And furthermore, all of Solitude knew what happened. The Imperials did not try and cover up Ulfric murdering the High King, that doesn't even make sense and most certainly is not lore friendly.

 

You'd be surprised what a man's last words can do in the minds of others. Those in Helgen might have been Imperial supporters, but if Ulfrics last words were heard, eventually they would reach the rest of Skyrim.

 

And besides that I was making the point of what would happen to Ulfric had he stayed in Solitude. Even without the Thu'um he would not have been allowed to speak.

 

I agree, what Tullius should have done and what I would have done, was just killed him standing. Done! But since that didn't happen...

 

I also agree that while the gag was humiliating, it was most necessary to protect Tullius and the soldiers and the other civilians. You know it was. Ulfric, at this point, has nothing to loose. Why stay and die when a few well-placed shouts could possibly grant him freedom? He's run from justice once, I mean seriously. And I would have shouted my way out of there too, but I digress :) It's a bit presumptions to say Ulfric would sit there and make a speech to a few Imperial Soldiers and civilians, the crowd isn't large enough. You know, Rogvir was allowed to give a speech and say what amounts to one last prayer before they axed him. Forgot that one huh? :D

 

 

We can't assume ANYTHING about the terms of the duel, as we know NOTHING about them. That information just isn't provided.

 

 

Except we can. If we can't, then you must admit that the duel was not dishonorable.

 

I agree/disagree with both of you, but it's very hard to claim Ulfric did nothing wrong. Him running away, DOES make it look like premeditated murder. The match was called in haste too. There are things which can be deduced from that.

 

By the time Windhelm is getting read to be besieged, Ulfric has already lost. And his mind (and in the minds of virtually every other Nord warrior) dying in battle will be better than running away to live for slightly longer. See this song for the sentiment:

 

Yes, I agree with you. I would stay and fight for as long as I could. But once Ulfric is Dead, I'm getting fudge out of there. Live to fight another day. Or live another day to fight for yourself. :thumbsup:

 

That song was touching. Seriously I actually felt something. I see a lot of fear and uncertainty in people these days. They look at me and I'm always upbeat, they never understand why.

 

The Empire DID release Ulfric instead of turning him over to the Thalmor after all didn't they? Yeah. What a way to repay them. I would be willing to bet the Empire wasn't turning over ANYONE to the Thalmor whatsoever until after the Markarth incident.

 

They might not have handed him over with a nice bow, but its the Empire's duty to defend its citizens. They didn't do that with Ulfric. Treaty be damned.

 

That a government is willing to let many of its citizens die without any repercussions is just terrible, especially when we're dealing with an enemy force that the EMPIRE DEFEATED.

 

I whole-heartedly agree with you on this section. Although I would add, Ulfric made a placid situation into an explosive nightmare for an entire province of people. The thing is, still, Ulfric's house isn't just either. And Titus Mede II made these bad policies, he made the Empire what it is today. I don't like what they did either, but I can't justify Talos's Empire being torn in half over TM2's bad policies, when we can simply just GET RID OF HIM. I'm also not for Ulfric or anyone being killed. This war needs to stop. Since it can't be, at least for now, I must side with the Empire and try to reform it. Neither TM2 or Ulfric are right. Talos would say that. As for what else he might do, I can only imagine. What are you going to do if Ulfric turns out worse than TM2? Ulfric is a Thalmor pawn whether he knows it or not. The Empire of Mede has been screwing up but it doesn't have to stay that way. If I take Ulfric's side, then I'm also letting the Thalmor have it THEIR WAY. Bfff to Hell with that. :biggrin:

 

It's just with my Religion/beliefs (Non-Denom Christian), sometimes I've been persecuted Thalmor-Spanish Inquisition-style for having a mind of my own. What always happens though, is in reality, there's maybe 1% of the "perceived problem faction" who hate me for whatever reason and they project their influence over the 99%. It's not right to take your hate and bitterness out on the people like Ulfric is doing. That's not what JC would do, he would go straight to the source and raise hell huhuhu literally. I mean, my point being is that somewhere along the way you have to forgive and you have to not forget but don't let the haters leave a legacy. Cause they don't deserve it. It seems to me, that getting rid of TM2 and eventually his precious WGC will kill that legacy without killing the entire Empire with it.

Edited July 11, 2012 by bigmagy1981

[Kraeten]

No?

 

You said the offer of a trial from one enemy to another was seldom and not to be expected. If you meant something else, you should have chosen your words more carefully.

 

So you think that that staying in Solitude and being executed

 

That is a possibility, not a certainty.

 

, without any chance to get on a soap box (and let the world know uninterrupted and not corrupted what his intentions were) and with little chance of convincing anyone in Solitude proper regardless, is going to turn out better than what Ulfric did in saving his own life while at the same time allowing his intentions to reach the rest of the world without being muddied by Imperial propaganda straight from the get-go?

 

Ulfric had just surrendered to Tullius when we first meet him. That act was just as dangerous as what I proposed. If not more so, since Tullius is far more experienced than Elisef.

 

Are you dense or are you just not thinking very hard about what you're saying?

 

I won't even deign to answer that.

 

And I'd agree, if Skyrim's independence didn't have greater implications beyond the inevitably short reign that Ulfric may gain. As I said, I don't fight for Ulfric. I fight for what Skyrim's independence is going to lead to.

 

You mean what Skyrim's independence MAY lead to. You can speculate all you like, but you have no way of knowing what Ulfric will really do with the power he'd gain as High King. He could just sit on his hands while the Dominion stomps over Cyrodiil and Hammerfell.

 

Personally, I think following a Stormcloak victory that Ulfric will reign as High King for a while and that eventually either he'll get killed and/or deposed by the Jarls.

 

And how will Ulfric be killed? So long as he has the Thu'um none of the Jarls can best him in a duel. And how will the Jarls depose him, when Ulfric gave half of them their power to begin with? Not to mention the army is loyal to him first before the Jarls.

 

After that we'll either see A, Skyrim tearing itself apart again (which I doubt) or a true and full return to how Skyrim used to be run, with the Jarl's meeting to select their High King. But that isn't going to matter unless you think some internal strife some 20-30 years down the line means anything to the war to save mankind that will happen well before that.

 

Indeed the war will begin sooner rather than later, which is why the civil war is so stupidly timed and why Ulfric needed to make his war as clean as possible. It was stupid to sow such animosity between Skyrim and the Empire with war so close on the horizon. A war where they may very well need to work together if they're to win.

 

There's a massive difference between being afraid of retribution, and wanting insure that your point can actually be made. This is what you need to get through your head. Solitude isn't a bastion of fairness and goodwill, Ulfric was going be dragged through the mud all the way to the chopping block, period. His point was not going to be made to anyone.

 

He had better odds appealing to the people of Solitude than expecting the Empire to give him a trial. I'm sure Ulfric has seen a map before, he knows the Empire can't afford to lose Skyrim. Where the people of Skyrim have some sense of honor, the Empire is much more ruthless.

 

Just THINK for a second.

 

I HAVE been thinking.The only difference is, I don't presume to think the individual debating with me isn't actually making an effort to use his mind.

 

Do you seriously think anyone in Solitude is going know that a duel took place beyond perhaps the muddied rumors that'll be drowned out by the emotional upheaval that propaganda ultimately would have (and did) cause?

 

Why do you think the propaganda was able to stick in the first place? BECAUSE Ulfric ran.

 

You'd be surprised what a man's last words can do in the minds of others. Those in Helgen might have been Imperial supporters, but if Ulfrics last words were heard, eventually they would reach the rest of Skyrim.

 

Oh, so there was a bard present then? If a version of Ulfric's last words were spread, it would in all likelihood be in a greatly diminished form.

 

And besides that I was making the point of what would happen to Ulfric had he stayed in Solitude. Even without the Thu'um he would not have been allowed to speak.

 

Assuming Elisef and her councilors took such a precaution.

 

If we can't, then you must admit that the duel was not dishonorable.

 

No, I would have to admit that we can't know whether the duel was honorable or not. Given that we DO KNOW that the Thu'um hasn't been used by Nords as a weapon for quite some time, that the Thu'um has been regarded in a more hallow sense we have reasonable justification to believe it wasn't.

 

By the time Windhelm is getting read to be besieged, Ulfric has already lost. And his mind (and in the minds of virtually every other Nord warrior) dying in battle will be better than running away to live for slightly longer. See this song for the sentiment:

 

If dying in battle was regarded so highly by Ulfric, he should have fought to the death before surrendering to Tullius at the beginning of the game.

[Deleted4666244User]

my question is not about who is the "good guy" but Who has the more legitimate claim? Elisif and her inheritance or Ulfric and his trial by combat which was not a trial but him killing the high king for the throne? i mean i bet Ulfric did his research on the subject saw that "stipulation" but did not expect that Elisif would call out her legitimacy as Torygg's widow.

[Cynster]

Honestly I think Ulfric has more right to be high king than Elisif. He fought and won fairly - and she is inexperienced as a leader. Had her husband not been "murdered" by Ulfric, I think she would have gladly let him take the title as the better leader if it were between him and her in a different situation. But there is no way she would do that after her husband's death - so out of pride, she is just making it worse.