An independent New Vegas mod.

[bruse]

And the key to making factions realistic, btw:

 

- The various factions which are not helpless / needing dire assistance aren't and cannot be controlled by you. You can't control the Brotherhood of Steel or the mutants of Jacobstown, or the Boomers. They will necessarily look after their own interests - if you can make the interests of Vegas and their own coincide, great, if you can't, well, they'll pursue their own agenda.

 

Brotherhood could be talked into patroling a stretch of the highway IF it would enable them to pursue their interests and control traffic and confiscate the really good pre-war toys, as Veronica puts it. It's both a blessing and a curse. What the Brotherhood cannot be, is being bossed around to fight your wars at your whim, perhaps once as a favour, or in response to an especially important threat, but they're isolationist at the core.

 

They will never provide tech for you (except you personally with the implied meaning you do not share around, as you are a member of the Brotherhood), ever, because that goes against the core of what the Brotherhood IS. You can see the reason why the NCR went to war with the Brotherhood, and you cannot change this. You can like them and they can respect you (and therefore, not attack you to grab military tech) because of the services you did for them, but the Brotherhood pursues the interests of the Brotherhood, and their interests are military tech. Their needs are some food and such as they're not fully self-sufficient. Perhaps they could be talked into supplying some of the "lesser" weapons or something of the sort in exchange for food and water. That's about it as far as feasible interactions with the Brotherhood, barring some extreme emergency.

 

Boomers are actually slightly more open, but their interests are again their own. While self-sufficent to a large degree, those howitzers and rocket launchers aren't going to regenerate their ammo. So they need some munitions, but what can they give in return? Salvage? Producing this and that? On the other hand, they're going to be more likely to help you bomb something, because from their point of view, bombing savages (defined as, people who are not boomers) is fun. After all, if you have a bomber to rain high explosive death on savages with no direct means of reprisal (at least, by low-tech factions), well, you want to use it.

 

Jacobstown isn't going to fight your own wars, ever. Marcus has seen enough that he doesn't need a new Master figure. All of them have suffered their share of wars and strife for much, much longer then a human lifespan. They're going to keep to themselves, trade yes, fight no. It's not their war, and from the point of view of someone hundreds of years old which has spent much of this timeframe fighting, they just want to be left alone in peace. They are going to be interested in trading, naturally, more because of Marcus being a very smart (and experienced) fellow then because they actually need anything - he knows if they are completely secluded from the world, the world might come knocking at their door eventually. Total seclusion breeds hostility in the end.

 

So out of "outlying factions" you can't really get much; none of them is compatibile with the idea of fighting for Vegas, except the Boomers to a limited degree (and they'd probably need to be supplied with ordinance to be able to do so, anyway). Tribals and Joshua are out of the question. The man has done his part. Perhaps, only perhaps, as a one-off event in a dire emergency, to return the favour for the services you rendered to him. The idea that he could have anything to do with the Legion, outside shooting them, is preposterous.

 

GS / Primm are too small to provide much, and certainly not manpower for your cause.

 

Followers can and probably would help, sure, but what they can do is limited in scope. However practical knowledge of medicine, agriculture and such is very much needed. Combat role is out of the question, naturally. They would be probably willing to support a courier who tries to help the common man.

 

Renmants? If they keep to themselves... you can shelter them, but you go declare a "open door" to former Enclave members to operate in New Vegas, and you're on a fast track with outright war with the NCR, because they hate the Enclave that much, and the BOS will not react well themselves, not only because of historical "disagreements" to put it lightly, but also because it conflicts with their mission as being the only ones wih the really good pre-war toys.

 

So your big job in the short term is to douse the flames and then secure supplies for Vegas as it's not self-sufficient while keeping the enemies which outnumber you by far at bay at the same time. We're talking about "nation building on the fast track on nightmare difficulty mode".

[devinpatterson]

I'd sort of love this.

Hi Bruse. Thanks for the input. I'm short on time so I may respond over several messages.

 

But I wouldn't go overboard with X and Y feature.

Yep, feature creep is a problem with every one of my projects.

 

 

(1) Cleanup of post-battle areas.

This part is essentially done (a few bugs left)

 

(2) From ending, NCR is defacto marched out of the Mojave and the Legion is on the east side of the Colorado. The "old" NCR NPCs need to go, and Mojave Outpost becomes effectively the border (or Primm, if it is sided with the NCR). Aside from agreeing with the ending,

I was curious what info/source convinces you this is the cannon ending. I'v researched it a bit and everything from the fallout timeline to various misc articles on the vault wiki are silent on the results of the 2nd battle of hoover dam.

[bruse]

Take a look at the ending:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KwBfmmL1rMA

 

It is directly implied the NCR is out of the region (that player had Primm side with the NCR and they abandoned that, too).

 

And it stands to logic - without Hoover Dam or the Strip, what interest does NCR have in maintaining camps in the Mohave? Oliver himself suggests the Bear will be back in force, and that is what is closer to logic.

 

Now without the NCR, the Legion, admittedly in dissaray, has essentially free reign to operate in the Mohave - it will need time to reorganize, but the defeat of two men at the top isn't going to topple it immediately, nor are a few thousand troops something the Legion cannot relace. This is basically, pure logic.

Edited October 13, 2013 by bruse

[Zaroj]

So is there a list of whats going to be in the mod so far?

[devinpatterson]

(2) From ending, NCR is defacto marched out of the Mojave and the Legion is on the east side of the Colorado. The "old" NCR NPCs need to go, and Mojave Outpost becomes effectively the border (or Primm, if it is sided with the NCR). Aside from agreeing with the ending,

&

 

Take a look at the ending:

OK so I think there is a basic misunderstanding here. For quite a while we have been story boarding all 4 faction endings (Yesman/independent, House, NCR and Legion-although legion gets very little love). It is however a dense thread and you may not have been able to look through the posts from the last few months.

 

This is why I asked if you had information for a canon ending to the 2nd battle of Hoover (ie in the timeline which faction won according to official fallout lore). It goes directly to the philosophy of the game. If your starting a new game in teh series, official lore will set the history of previous games in the timeline. In 2278 the lone wanderer activates project purity, according to official lore, but in the players game s/he may activate it earlier or later.

 

We are continuing a present game however, so to limit all players to the same ending as opposed to using their specific game and it's variables would be a missed opportunity. I believe that one of the things people really enjoy about Betheseda games, is the greater degree of freedom they provide the player. We can tap into all of those global and script variables to customize the mod for each individual player, and failing to do that doesn't seem to be in teh best interest of the spirit of the game (nor is it desired by the players I'v communicated with).

 

Long story short, I don't want to short change players, so I do not believe we will be following the route you'v advocated. The real question is how granular we want to be, balanced by the time we have available to implement the work.

 

I also believe that players enjoy when their choices make a impact on the game world and they see the results directly.

 

In the same vein, I want players to have input in influencing the future of NV. An example is that there are several ways the player can interact with the NCR after following the Yesman/indpendent faction ending (declaration of war, letter of withdrawal, alliance etc. This allows the player the option or ability to craft NV (in a general sense, once again balancing the depth of choice with the time we have available to implement it) into the city state they wish it to be.

 

And it stands to logic - without Hoover Dam or the Strip, what interest does NCR have in maintaining camps in the Mohave? Oliver himself suggests the Bear will be back in force, and that is what is closer to logic.

Just a note in re: to your use of the term logic. Several times you'v made an assertion and followed it up by referencing logic, but providing no formal (or even a complete informal) argument. Logic hinges on teh validity of it's argument. When you say logically, "stands to logic" or "is closer to logic" but provide no argument, simply an assertion, your misusing the term.

 

In re: to the Mojave in general, Hoover dam is a very important resource to the NCR, but I don't believe it is the only reason for the NCR occupation. I believe he Mojave is seen by Kimball and other "warhawks" as a bulwark against the Legions expansion into NCR territory. This is very similar to the speeches we often hear today "we're fighting terrorists abroad so we don't have to fight them at home" and "Taking the fight to the terrorists" etc.

 

In addition it's clear that the NCR does *not* benefit by loosing the Mojave to the Legion. If the Legion holds the Mojave it can become the staging ground for anything from forays/raids into NCR lands to the base a a all out assault. I believe it is in the NCR's best interest to prevent that from happening. This gives the player leverage (in re: to both factions, legion and NCR). Perhaps you'v heard the term; "the enemy of my enemy is my friend"?

 

Let me give you an example. One of the choices I mentioned when dealing with the NCR is an alliance and continuation of the New Vegas Treaty. The NCR continues business very similar to the way it is now. Providing troops and support etc as outlined in the treaty (although with speech/barter checks the terms can be modified somewhat in the players favor). As a result the NCR receives several benefits; continue to receive it's water and electricity, the Mojave continues to be a buffer between the legion and NCR territory, and they have a new military ally of no small prowess (the securitron army). Or they can choose to go to war with NV, loose the electricity and water provided by Hoover, expose a open front against a powerful bot army while facing a very aggressive super power (the Legion) as well, on a separate front. Which would you choose if you were the NCR?

 

This is an argument I'm providing for my assertion and attempting to show that the matter is not nearly as simple as you'v outlined for your vision of how the Mojave would evolve.

 

I'd also recommend scanning the thread. I appreciate your suggestions but some have been covered previously. And as large a project as this is, we don't want to be re-inventing the wheel, with so much else to do.

 

When I have a little more time, I'll try to address your comments that relate to new ideas in a little more detail. Thanks again for contributing.

[devinpatterson]

So is there a list of whats going to be in the mod so far?

I'm afraid I only started a feature list, but havn't had time to work on it as of yet. It is located here. I hope to have time to work on it and edit the first post of this thread to update and make a more comprehensive introduction.

[bruse]

When I talk about logic, let's look at the situation:

(1) The NCR intends to (in vanilla game) annex New Vegas. Stated repeatedly by many NCR personnel. I think it's Hsu who complains that "We came here to annex New Vegas, and it feels like they have annexed us" in reference to New Vegas.

 

(2) The current arrengement with House is not satisfactory to the NCR (in fact, just about everyone in the NCR seems disgruntled how the Vegas campaign is going, and if you opt to work for the NCR they ask you to kill House, regardless of the "deal" they have with him).

 

(3) The only thing the NCR is currently getting out of New Vegas is electricity.

 

When I say, what would NCR logically do, well, let's see where we get from these premises. What options do they have in the immediate aftermath of Hoover Dam in case the Courier takes it for himself?

 

(1) Perpetuate the existing (not satisfactory) agreement except they don't have the Dam anymore and you have taken it, and you have cheated them out of their (by their reckoning) victory.

 

(2) Pull out of the Mohave to more defensive positions for the time being and optionally trade for the electricity with an independent New Vegas.

 

Option (2) is cheaper; independent New Vegas needs food and materiel which it simply does not have to sustain itself, and since that is more essential then electricity the pressure to trade is on New Vegas, and not the NCR. It also enables them to regain their strength while New Vegas is left fighting the Legion, weakening both the Legion and New Vegas. Besides, in their view, if left to it's own devices, New Vegas might fall apart - being an upstart nation - and be ripe for taking, which is their intent (in the vanilla game).

 

Furthermore, (1) is a huge problem. NCR is a democracy; you've just cheated them out of their victory and taken from them what they want, and then you would have them defend you or make an alliance with you? Any administration which would go with that would be unpopular at home to the point of revolt. You literally robbed the NCR of something which they earned with their blood, does it sound feasible they're nice to you and defend you, or that they want to tear your head off?

Edited October 16, 2013 by bruse

[bruse]

The input towards the future of New Vegas should be focused on "how do I deal with the aftermath of what I did", in my view, before "let's play god of the Mohave and do what I want". It's in the vein of what Oliver is saying - do you really have what it takes to build a nation?

 

See, the NCR is doing a lot of things throughout the Mohave; you can do a better job then the NCR at it or a worse job at it, but the NCR doesn't want to help you, they want to annex you, and even a temporarily leaderless and weakened Legion is still a huge and hostile entity.

[Devilman1975]

I've got to respond to the points you've raised as I seem to be in disagreement with what you said.

 

 

(1) The NCR intends to (in vanilla game) annex New Vegas. Stated repeatedly by many NCR personnel. I think it's Hsu who complains that "We came here to annex New Vegas, and it feels like they have annexed us" in reference to New Vegas.

 

(2) The current arrengement with House is not satisfactory to the NCR (in fact, just about everyone in the NCR seems disgruntled how the Vegas campaign is going, and if you opt to work for the NCR they ask you to kill House, regardless of the "deal" they have with him).

 

(3) The only thing the NCR is currently getting out of New Vegas is electricity.

 

What you and Col Hsu seem to be forgetting is that under the original treaty the NCR receive 95% of the electricity generated at Hoover Dam in addition to clean water (lets not forget about the water) for protecting Vegas which in itself sounds like a fair deal to me. If Hsu is referring to the NCR tourists who lose their money gambling at the casinos then let's keep in mind that nobody pointed a gun at their heads to gamble their money away.

 

The reasons that the NCR are having problems in the Mojave is that in trying to annex everything in sight they are stretched very thin as mentioned by NCR supporters like Boone and Cass. Another reason is the incompetent leadership by General Oliver whose strategy only consists of holding position which has allowed the NCR/Legion war to drag on for this long. A competent military leader would have taken control of Cottonwood Cove a long time ago making it harder for the Legion to cross into the Mojave. In addition the NCR have the problems with the Powder Gangers which was caused by F@£!wit Oliver when he removed prison guards from the NCRCF to patrol the Colorado River and not send in replacements. It's also worth noting that other gangs like the Great Khans, the Jackals and the Vipers were forced out of NCR lands to the frontier which became another problem of their own making to deal with.

 

During the game I found that some of the missions that the player carried out for the NCR could have been resolved by the NCR without having to involve an outside contractor. Examples of this is the player having to clear Primm of convicts (a problem caused by the NCR in the first place) even though there is an NCR camp nearby, delivering security codes for the ranger stations (not something that a civilian contractor should be doing) and clearing the road leading to the Mojave Outpost of giant ants (ants for chrissakes, surely a single NCR trooper with a service rifle could have easily done the job). For story and game purposes the player had to do these missions but this made the NCR come across as being unable to even tie their shoelaces without permission from a superior officer.

 

When I say, what would NCR logically do, well, let's see where we get from these premises. What options do they have in the immediate aftermath of Hoover Dam in case the Courier takes it for himself?

 

(1) Perpetuate the existing (not satisfactory) agreement except they don't have the Dam anymore and you have taken it, and you have cheated them out of their (by their reckoning) victory.

 

As I've previously mentioned in the existing treaty the NCR recieved 95% of the electricity generated at Hoover Dam free as well as the water. Hoover Dam was the main reason they wanted to annex Vegas. When Col Moore wanted the player to kill House, she was warned that killing House may have consequences for the Strip but she was still willing to accept the possible loss of the Strip if it got the NCR Hoover Dam.

 

Even if the player wins Hoover Dam for the NCR, don't think for a second that the citizens of the NCR will get their water and electricity for free. Chances are that they will be made to pay for it by the NCR government and on that note I would also think that the NCR will keep the entry fee to the Strip if it makes them more money.

 

independent New Vegas needs food and materiel which it simply does not have to sustain itself

 

I guessing you didn't notice all the farms in the game such as the NCR sharecroppers farm (which was only set up to feed the NCR troops) and also the smaller farms in the settlements. You've also got to realize that the Mojave Wasteland is in a far more favorable state compared to the Capital Wasteland in Fallout 3. You've got a lot more vegetation all over the place and not to mention additional food sources in the form of brahmin, bighorners and even geckos. And let's not forget the discovery of salient green which would allow any left over food to be converted into green liquid and preserved for quite some time. It's kind of interesting that you mentioned food as an argument when Dr Hildern at the OSI mentioned a future food shortage in the NCR which would indicate a larger nation like the NCR is more reliant on trade for food than New Vegas is.

 

As for other materials there's the possibility of controlling the New Vegas Steel plant for steel, Sloan quarry for limestone and the Sunset Sarsparilla headquarters for Sunset Sarsparilla (what else). With these areas under the player's control New Vegas not only has enough for it's own needs but also exports it can sell to it's neighbors.

Edited October 16, 2013 by Devilman1975

[devinpatterson]

I know this is a long thread, so it is easy to overlook the many discussions we've had on this topic. But time is in very short supply for me and I'd much rather be spending it doing actual modding, as opposed to going over subjects that have already been covered. I don't mean to make light of your suggestions/opinions in any way, shape or form. So I hope you will understand, in the interest of time, if you bring up a subject that has already been covered (and doesn't contain a novel aspect) I'll simply refer you back to the thread.

 

I also realize that asking someone to read or even skim a 109 page forum is a huge task. If I have time, I may try to layout a outline containing some of the material or links to where the material is discussed in this thread. But at the moment I am focused on the actual modding.

 

 

When I talk about logic, let's look at the situation:

You don't want to confuse logic with opinion. In a fictional universe things like the law of identity, non contradiction etc, essential to logic, isn't going to net you the traction you want. What we are discussing is what seems like the most plausible to each of us....ie opinion. We can't run a real world sim for instance to test what is more likely. And you don't want to redefine the term. For instance if you say "I have a car, it's filled with helium and it floats" someone may say that's not a car that's a balloon. If your response is "when I talk about cars that's what *I* mean" your attempting to redefine something that already has a definition.

 

So we've have various and differing opinions. How do we decide which is more valid than the others. We could go by group consensus. We could go by what makes the most interesting story. We could go by the mod creators choice (artistic license). But we already have a precedent, it's fallout lore.

 

I use the NV treaty and the Letter of Withdrawal as templates for the player (the player being a stand in for the same options House would have in his faction ending). I also throw in some additional choices to allow player degrees of freedom. Some are obvious numnut tests (like declaring war on the NCR), included only to give the player a full gamut to choose from. Tehy aren't things I'm interested in implementing in the mod, I only include them for the sake of completeness.

 

We know by precedent (lore) that the developers intended a possible story line to be House destroying legion troops and offering a beneficial truce to teh NCR (certainly beneficial to House at the prices he charges, and beneficial to the NCR since they continue to receive Hoovers resources). We can assume by this story line that, if House was not an idiot and completely misunderstood the geopolitical position of the region, his offer is a workable solution and that your assumptions listed below (at least in teh developers opinion) do not hold true.

 

 

(2) The current arrengement with House is not satisfactory to the NCR (in fact, just about everyone in the NCR seems disgruntled how the Vegas campaign is going, and if you opt to work for the NCR they ask you to kill House, regardless of the "deal" they have with him).

I believe your confusing the NCR troops/population dissatisfaction with the war, as a reflection on the deal in re: to the NV treaty. The NV treaty is very favorable to the NCR (95% of Hoovers resources go to the NCR). What the NCR populance are dissatisfied with is the battle/war with the Legion. That isn't going to change whether the NV treaty only provided 10% or a 100% of Hoovers resources. The Mojave is the NCR/Legion front line.....it's not a pretty sight and only war hawks are going to be happy with it.

 

 

(3) The only thing the NCR is currently getting out of New Vegas is electricity.

At a minimum, they actually receive massive quantities of both electricity *and* water from hoover dam, which are sent to NCR territories. But your ignoring what is perhaps and even greater concern of the NCR's. Namely military/strategic advantage. Holding the Mojave as a bulwark against Legion expansion into NCR land, as I mentioned in my previous post.

 

When I say, what would NCR logically do, well, let's see where we get from these premises. What options do they have in the immediate aftermath of Hoover Dam in case the Courier takes it for himself?

 

(1) Perpetuate the existing (not satisfactory) agreement except they don't have the Dam anymore and you have taken it, and you have cheated them out of their (by their reckoning) victory.

You seem to be forgetting the alternative, which is to loose the resources of Hoover entirely and have a small (but still potent) force of hostiles (NV's bot army) at your doorstep.

 

(2) Pull out of the Mohave to more defensive positions for the time being and optionally trade for the electricity with an independent New Vegas.

 

Option (2) is cheaper; independent New Vegas needs food and materiel which it simply does not have to sustain itself, and since that is more essential then electricity the pressure to trade is on New Vegas, and not the NCR.

Your position simply isn't supported by lore. As an example when House issues a letter of withdrawal it is clear he is in the position of power, charging for both electricity and water (5 caps per gal/kW). And states "So long as NCR military personnel comply with this order to withdraw, electricity and water will continue to flow from Hoover Dam to the NCR." - Robert House. He is not at the mercy of the NCR for food (at the rates he charges he has more than enough caps for food and other amenities).

 

It also enables them to regain their strength while New Vegas is left fighting the Legion, weakening both the Legion and New Vegas. Besides, in their view, if left to it's own devices, New Vegas might fall apart - being an upstart nation - and be ripe for taking, which is their intent (in the vanilla game).

Your confusing opinion and logic as well as making assumptions that may not necessarily be true.

 

Let me give you some counter examples of your opinion; If the NCR is hostile to NV and the Legion defeats NV they occupy the Mojave. This is the example I gave you (an opinion) previously, that you have *not* addressed. Legion are now adjacent to NCR territories (as I mentioned in my last post allowing anything from raiding to staging an all out war) and they have lost massive amounts of electricity and water that they depend upon (from Hoover).

 

Another example; If the NCR are hostile to NV, NV has the option of allying with the Legion. Now what was once a very close stalemate could tip the balance of power in the region by the addition of a powerful bot army. Everything stated in the previous statement above applies (Legion strategic advantage as they setup shop right on the NCR's front doorstep) except that the Legion also have a powerful ally. An absolute worse case scenario for the NCR.

 

Furthermore, (1) is a huge problem. NCR is a democracy; you've just cheated them out of their victory and taken from them what they want, and then you would have them defend you or make an alliance with you?

Oh yes, definitely. It isn't a question of ruling the Mojave (they'v lost that), it's a question of damage control. Your assertion that because they have lost, they will seek vengeance even at the cost of their own self interests is short sighted. You can argue that Kimball and/or Oliver will accept nothing less than total destruction of the Courier and I can argue that would be self destructive to both of their careers and the NCR at large. They can gain great benefit by allying with NV (resources, military allies-bot army, etc.).

 

Any administration which would go with that would be unpopular at home to the point of revolt. You literally robbed the NCR of something which they earned with their blood, does it sound feasible they're nice to you and defend you, or that they want to tear your head off?

The NCR don't bill themselves as conquers. They havn't been proclaiming to their citizens that NV would soon be a spoil of war. Kimball would spin an alliance as a democratic win. The NCR a shining light of law and freedom helping to protect the city state of NV against the savagery of the Legion. It's a possible saving grace for Kimball that *just might* keep him in office if water & electricity continue flowing and the NCR suddenly has a powerful military alley (the bot army). Certainly more likely to keep him in office, than admitting he F'd the whole thing up and everything was for naught....oh and BTW we also have a potential new enemy in the form of a bot army :wink:

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying your opinions are crazy or off the deep end. What I am saying is that there is more options than only the ones you are presenting. I try to sort through them based on lore and what works for the mod (in regard to both story and what I'd like to put together as far as choice for the player).