An independent New Vegas mod.

[devinpatterson]

Oh and I should also mention that my opinions are just that....opinions. I make plenty of mistakes and my opinions aren't superior just because they are mine....my disclaimer :smile:

[bruse]

As for food - the sharecropper farms have issues of their own (which you get to partially resolve... or not - in the game) and it's largely suggested that a lot of it is imported from the NCR (the sharecropper farms being built precisely to lessen the need for imports). Even so, after NCR leaves they need new management (these are NCR citizens, protected by NCR military).

 

Even then, all the "visible" stuff just isn't enough. A city of 10K people would require roughly a square kilometer of productive farmland, and from what I recall from in-game, a lot of it is imported into New Vegas. It's quite a big thing, because you can get by without electricity for a while, but you certainly can't get by without sufficient food. New Vegas doesn't have any real working industry to speak of, either. It needs to trade with the NCR far more then the other way around, at least until it gets to it's feet.

 

Regardless, let's take House's terms - the letter of withdrawal demands NCR military basically leaves the area. Let's say the NCR does leave the area, where does that leave you? The people who are caring about the refugees in Bitter Springs, Aerotech park and so on are gone, too. You can either choose to not give a damn (like House wouldn't) or help them out, but the NCR isn't around there anymore to do it.

 

The NCR (under Kimball and such) are conquerors. This is more or less directly hinted by high ranking people in the NCR itself ("we came here to annex New Vegas") and the very request to kill House to be able to annex the whole territory.

 

So, where does that leave you? The army of deathbots is nice and buys you time, but the NCR is far larger then you and wants what you have for itself - and they have successfully waged a war against the BoS (which is no small feat, so they are not entirely incompetent). Their inability to deal with the Legion is more due to chronic mismanagement of the campaign then anything else.

 

Falling back to the Mohave Outpost isn't such a drastically bad outcome for them (if they can't annex Vegas). It's far cheaper for starters - keeping troops abroad is a massive financial strain. Secondly, preety much the only way for the Legion to mount and sustain an offensive against the NCR itself (at this section of the front anyway) is by taking Hoover Dam. An army, even a low-tech army like the Legion, lives or dies on supplies, and there's no getting enough supplies to feed thousands of troops without controling the Dam and the surroundings. If they want to take on the NCR, they have to take on New Vegas first.

 

They can raid in the Mohave with small units, sure, but bringing in thousands of troops, bringing in supplies to feed them daily, ammunition and everything else to go further then that just won't happen without securing Hoover Dam. So where does that leave you? You have to pick up (or don't, if you want to play it like House MK II, and elect not to care) and deal with the fallout of NCR leaving (and they were supporting, eg. refugees all around), and the Legion is really free to conduct small-scale raiding, since while you have an army of deathbots, you don't have boots holding ground anywhere south of Novac, which is itself exposed.

 

In addition, securitrons drive around on a wheel (!) which means they're not going to work that well on rugged terrain, so human defenders are still necessary in some parts.

[devinpatterson]

Sorry this one is a rushed reply, I'll try to elaborate later when I have more time. Devilman touched on various points relating to your question re: food (relatively unradiated land for instance, massive sources of clean water etc), and I don't believe the population is anywhere near 10k....several orders of magnitude lower. But don't get the wrong idea, food is definitely a resource that will come into play during the mod and you can look over the thread for previous discussions about it as well.

 

You wouldn't want to paint the NCR with a wide brush as Conquerors, any more than you would the U.S. Some elements are very hawkish in both, but the basic tenets and principals are based on a democracy for both.

 

I'd refer you back to my previous post in re: to the NCR waging war on NV or abandoning the Mojave.

 

Re: the wheel; your still defaulting to what you personally believe is plausible instead of what is established lore. Victor can be seen all over the wasteland, with no restcition to help out the player when s/he is low level and in extreme danger. Consider the wheel all terrain.

 

But feel free to expand on the food issues and suggest quests for it (ie work on the

[sgtKraigO]

As for food - the sharecropper farms have issues of their own (which you get to partially resolve... or not - in the game) and it's largely suggested that a lot of it is imported from the NCR (the sharecropper farms being built precisely to lessen the need for imports). Even so, after NCR leaves they need new management (these are NCR citizens, protected by NCR military).

 

Even then, all the "visible" stuff just isn't enough. A city of 10K people would require roughly a square kilometer of productive farmland, and from what I recall from in-game, a lot of it is imported into New Vegas. It's quite a big thing, because you can get by without electricity for a while, but you certainly can't get by without sufficient food. New Vegas doesn't have any real working industry to speak of, either. It needs to trade with the NCR far more then the other way around, at least until it gets to it's feet.

 

Regardless, let's take House's terms - the letter of withdrawal demands NCR military basically leaves the area. Let's say the NCR does leave the area, where does that leave you? The people who are caring about the refugees in Bitter Springs, Aerotech park and so on are gone, too. You can either choose to not give a damn (like House wouldn't) or help them out, but the NCR isn't around there anymore to do it.

 

The NCR (under Kimball and such) are conquerors. This is more or less directly hinted by high ranking people in the NCR itself ("we came here to annex New Vegas") and the very request to kill House to be able to annex the whole territory.

 

So, where does that leave you? The army of deathbots is nice and buys you time, but the NCR is far larger then you and wants what you have for itself - and they have successfully waged a war against the BoS (which is no small feat, so they are not entirely incompetent). Their inability to deal with the Legion is more due to chronic mismanagement of the campaign then anything else.

 

Falling back to the Mohave Outpost isn't such a drastically bad outcome for them (if they can't annex Vegas). It's far cheaper for starters - keeping troops abroad is a massive financial strain. Secondly, preety much the only way for the Legion to mount and sustain an offensive against the NCR itself (at this section of the front anyway) is by taking Hoover Dam. An army, even a low-tech army like the Legion, lives or dies on supplies, and there's no getting enough supplies to feed thousands of troops without controling the Dam and the surroundings. If they want to take on the NCR, they have to take on New Vegas first.

 

They can raid in the Mohave with small units, sure, but bringing in thousands of troops, bringing in supplies to feed them daily, ammunition and everything else to go further then that just won't happen without securing Hoover Dam. So where does that leave you? You have to pick up (or don't, if you want to play it like House MK II, and elect not to care) and deal with the fallout of NCR leaving (and they were supporting, eg. refugees all around), and the Legion is really free to conduct small-scale raiding, since while you have an army of deathbots, you don't have boots holding ground anywhere south of Novac, which is itself exposed.

 

In addition, securitrons drive around on a wheel (!) which means they're not going to work that well on rugged terrain, so human defenders are still necessary in some parts.

 

I'm pretty sure I have over looked the Sharecroppers as I don't remember mentioning them in earlier comments so here are my thoughts on the Sharecroppers and some of the things you mentioned in your comment.

 

1. Have a second farm near Westside. The water pipeline goes there and it will please the locals there if they have jobs, food and water by working the farm. (I could see this happening in all endings, but the Legion would most likely use slaves instead, and in the NCR ending some of the workers could be brought in from other parts of the NCR while some are from Westside and Freeside)

 

2. There are plenty of farms around New Vegas that can be populated by farmers who could grow some crops, even if a small amount compared too the population of NV. These farms can be family/independent farms that are not owned/ran by the government or large corporations.

 

3. The NCR has been plagued with corruption and lack of jobs. Losing the war in Mojave would cause even more friction between the government and civilians as they aren't in favour of this war. The corruption in the government, the loss of life in the war they lost, lack of jobs, sudden loss of electricity, possible water shortages (Chief Hanlon mentions there are no more lakes in the core region), and an uncertain future could and most likely would spark protests, riots, and possibly open rebellions.

 

4. NV does in fact have exports, mainly being electricity and water from Lake Mead and Lake Las Vegas.

 

Also on a side note I remember mentioning turning some abandoned mines around NV into working ones again and I ran across this map that I thought would be helpful. http://keeg.com/hostile/cijid/falloutnv/Fallout3MapCaves.jpg

[sgtKraigO]

Also I thought it would be a cool idea if you had merged most of the Jackles, Vipers, and possibly the Scorpions and some Powder Gangers into one gang. The reasoning behind this would be, after taking losses from almost every group in the wasteland they realized that they will be wiped out by who ever takes over New Vegas. So the Jackles or Vipers decided to contact the other and most of the members of each gang agree to a merge in order to survive, the ones that don't agree are either killed in a bloody fight or escape and continue to raid under their old gangs name and symbol. After a short time the Scorpion gang and some Poweder Gangers decide to join them as well, most of whom are accepted into the gang (this depends on if the Scorpion gang wasn't wiped out and how many Powder Gangers are still around after the second battle of Hoover Dam).

 

They could take over Bonnie Springs, the Tribal Village to the south west, and the Spring Mt. Ranch State Park to the north west. This would force the NCR to wipe them out or capture them if they want to take over Vault 19 in order to get the sulfur located within.

 

I was thinking tactics wise the NCR would send it's main force to Bonnie Springs coming from the west while smaller forces holding the line north of the State Park and south of the Tribal Village. Once Bonnie Springs is captured, the main force would split into 3 forces, 1 holding the town, 1 moving north towards the State Park, and the last one moving south towards the Tribal Village. Simultaneously the troops north of the State Park will move south and the troops south or the Tribal village will move north, having two pincer moves simultaneously cutting off the two remaining forces of the gang. The player can help the main force, then choose which way to go (If the player chooses to aid the assault on the Tribal Village then they have to aid the State Park assault after. If they choose the State Park first then the one at the Tribal Village is successful, or you have to go aid the Tribal Village.). The Legions assault will just be a few waves of troops, nothing special, and the Independent will be a mix of NCR and Legion showing that the military leaders has some learning to do. For the House ending I don't think they should be wiped out, showing the lack of interest House has for the area.

 

After the battle the Legion will either enslave the survivors or put them to the sword, while the NCR and Independant will send them to correctional facilities. This event will also add some more action in the game.

[devinpatterson]

I'm pretty sure I have over looked the Sharecroppers as I don't remember mentioning them in earlier comments so here are my thoughts on the Sharecroppers and some of the things you mentioned in your comment.

 

1. Have a second farm near Westside......

 

2. There are plenty of farms around New Vegas that can be populated by farmers who could grow some crops,

yep, the mojave has some real advantages compared to the blasted wastelands. Lots of relatively unraddiated land, plenty of fresh unradiated water in lake mead etc. The potential (with some civil engineering) is staggering when compared to most of the deadlands of north America.

 

Also I thought it would be a cool idea if you had merged most of the Jackles, Vipers, and possibly the Scorpions and some Powder Gangers into one gang. The reasoning behind this would be, after taking losses from almost every group in the wasteland they realized that they will be wiped out by who ever takes over New Vegas. So the Jackles or Vipers decided to contact the other and most of the members of each gang agree to a merge in order to survive, the ones that don't agree are either killed in a bloody fight or escape and continue to raid under their old gangs name and symbol. After a short time the Scorpion gang and some Poweder Gangers decide to join them as well, most of whom are accepted into the gang (this depends on if the Scorpion gang wasn't wiped out and how many Powder Gangers are still around after the second battle of Hoover Dam).

I understand where you coming from, but I'm not sure all those groups could make a cohesive whole without a very strong leader to keep them together. None of them are known for playing well with others. I think it's more likely they will move on, much like the Khans. I think to make it work we are going to have to have a true bad *ss that rules with an iron fist. Someone that is smart enough to unify the tribes/factions, strong enough to stay alive as a leader of criminals/outlaws/thugs and vicious enough to inspire fear in all of them.....that will overcome bickering, feuds etc.

 

I don't think we'll need them for anything except a independent/NCR ending. House won't care as long as they don't harass NV or it's supply chain (and he has the bots to prevent that) and the Legion ending kills off any that don't flee. We know from the end slides that with a NCR victory the powder gangers lore ending results in them running off from the NCRCF (prison) or being executed. But honestly most players are going to deal with the NCRCF on their own. If that happens (Eddie dies) the lore ending is fairly vague (they just vanish into the wastes). Basicly the same with vault 19 and Cooke. Anyway that's the canon endings and I don't see anything that would prevent some unification if someone is strong enough to do it. Could make a good quest.

 

I was thinking tactics wise the NCR would send it's main force to Bonnie Springs coming from the west

It would be good to have the player begin joint operations or be in command of NCR troops. That's good for reinforcing the ally or integration aspects that I want a NCR or NCR friendly mod to have. Troops might be a little problematic though. Part of it is the pathfinding/patrol markers and part of it is too many actors on screen at a time (real hit to the frame rate). Let me experiment a bit and I might be able to tell if we can do normal troopers (say 10-20 per a group) or we should restrict the scenario to a smaller spec ops team.

 

The Legions assault will just be a few waves of troops, nothing special, and the Independent will be a mix of NCR and Legion showing that the military leaders has some learning to do. For the House ending I don't think they should be wiped out, showing the lack of interest House has for the area.

Yeah I think that's well supported by the end game lore

 

After the battle the Legion will either enslave the survivors or put them to the sword, while the NCR and Independant will send them to correctional facilities. This event will also add some more action in the game.

One difference though is that the NCR just summary executes the convicts (end game slides) they catch, so in that respect the NCR is all business.

[sgtKraigO]

 

After the battle the Legion will either enslave the survivors or put them to the sword, while the NCR and Independant will send them to correctional facilities. This event will also add some more action in the game.

One difference though is that the NCR just summary executes the convicts (end game slides) they catch, so in that respect the NCR is all business.

 

 

I was thinking that too but if the correctional facility is up and running again and the rails are being cleaned and worked on then I could see the NCR wanting to keep some of the survivors and put them in jail.

[Fyrian86]

 

 

Also I thought it would be a cool idea if you had merged most of the Jackles, Vipers, and possibly the Scorpions and some Powder Gangers into one gang. The reasoning behind this would be, after taking losses from almost every group in the wasteland they realized that they will be wiped out by who ever takes over New Vegas. So the Jackles or Vipers decided to contact the other and most of the members of each gang agree to a merge in order to survive, the ones that don't agree are either killed in a bloody fight or escape and continue to raid under their old gangs name and symbol. After a short time the Scorpion gang and some Poweder Gangers decide to join them as well, most of whom are accepted into the gang (this depends on if the Scorpion gang wasn't wiped out and how many Powder Gangers are still around after the second battle of Hoover Dam).

I understand where you coming from, but I'm not sure all those groups could make a cohesive whole without a very strong leader to keep them together. None of them are known for playing well with others. I think it's more likely they will move on, much like the Khans. I think to make it work we are going to have to have a true bad *ss that rules with an iron fist. Someone that is smart enough to unify the tribes/factions, strong enough to stay alive as a leader of criminals/outlaws/thugs and vicious enough to inspire fear in all of them.....that will overcome bickering, feuds etc.

 

I don't think we'll need them for anything except a independent/NCR ending. House won't care as long as they don't harass NV or it's supply chain (and he has the bots to prevent that) and the Legion ending kills off any that don't flee. We know from the end slides that with a NCR victory the powder gangers lore ending results in them running off from the NCRCF (prison) or being executed. But honestly most players are going to deal with the NCRCF on their own. If that happens (Eddie dies) the lore ending is fairly vague (they just vanish into the wastes). Basicly the same with vault 19 and Cooke. Anyway that's the canon endings and I don't see anything that would prevent some unification if someone is strong enough to do it. Could make a good quest.

how about this?

independent good player:use houses resources to unite an independent mojave.

independent bad(a$$) player unite the Raiders to rule the mojave as a criminals paradise.

[devinpatterson]

how about this?

independent good player:use houses resources to unite an independent mojave.

independent bad(a$$) player unite the Raiders to rule the mojave as a criminals paradise.

 

We can certainly put a gangsta spin on the independent player, giving a more goodfellas feel.....s/he doesn't have to a good guy (or gal). Uniting the criminal elements (both family and fiends), increasing the sin product (gambling, prostitution, etc) and reaching into new markets (extortion, kidnapping etc) are all valid directions the player could go, as the ultimate kingpin of New Vegas. I personally don't have any desire to do that, but if people want it, and are willing to contribute ideas then I'll cobble together a set of appropriate quests.

[Devilman1975]

To be completely honest I'm not really interested in the gangster spin. If there are any plans to set up a gangster element to the game then it should be done through the Omertas. When House created the three families he noticed the similarities between the tribe that became the Omertas and criminal groups that existed in Vegas before the bombs fell. The player is not bound by the sense of nostalgia that House had and should be free to change the management as he/she sees fit. Even if the player decides to get rid of the Omertas I think that the option to allow prostitution to continue should be present.