An independent New Vegas mod.

[blaze1514]

 

I seen in an earlier post that you think that the Dam is too important to let the brotherhood proside and use. That makes sense if you are just on good terms with them, but many actually get the full membership. Wouldn't it make sense for a member to want his chapter to maintain old world tech of that value. I have always wanted to have a mod that made the brotherhood do more.

I can't comment specifically on what you'v seen (of an earlier post by me) unless you can link to it. But what your discussing is similar to something I'v mentioned in one of the viva threads and is in regard to some requests to increase the BOS's power and transform them into a major faction. I believe something like that is possible if the player wants to champion the faction and abdicate the reigns of power to the elder.

 

All of the above is assuming the securitron army has been activated/upgraded. Without it, the BOS cannot hold against the NCR or Legion (IMHO).

 

Although this is somewhat different than your proposal of a alliance or a limited power sharing type agreement, I think it would make for an interesting parallel reality. And no other faction would be as adapt at managing the robotic resources of NV (other than the late House and arguably some skilled members of the followers). It would also be something of a last bastion of the western BOS, as things are not going well fro them.

 

Anyway, a bit of a different vision, but I think it could be interesting and fulfill some of the requests I'v had for raising the BOS to the status as a major faction. I thought it might be interesting to bring it up for discussion and see if it has a wider appeal.

 

So on to your suggestion......

 

I also would think that there should be an option (if you are a member) to have the brotherhood set up FO 1&2 style posts/offices in some of the cities. Effectively policing the cities that are too unimportant for protection by others.

 

I would set it up like this. You talk to the the Brotherhood, you make them a deal, If they protect the small settlements (Novac, goodsprings, Prim, Boulder, etc...) then you will give the scribes access to the dam, let them have Helios, and let their scribs study some of the lucky 38's preware tech. If you run the NCR out (withdraw order) then they will also watch Aerospace Office Park Refuge Camp. I think that is preferable to just leaving the dam empty (if you are a member).

I think it's possible to ally the BOS with the independent cause and provide support to each other. However I should mention that the BOS take the opportunity that the 2nd battle at hoover dam provides, to retake Helios one (under the independent and legion endings).

 

Edit: I also think that since house is gone (independent) then the Followers can now set up in NV. They could set up a real medical clinic/hospital. Maybe in the NCR Station (if you are not keeping the current treaty)

I believe the independent ruler of NV could certainly culture a more substantial relationship with the Followers.

 

Yeah I knew the brotherhood retake the solar plant. I just seen a comment about having securitrons guarding it. I figured you were going to change something and have it under NV control.

 

I have a question, I haven't read all of the 131 pages, but is this just for the Indi ending, or are you going to do a little bit for the other two as well?

[sgtKraigO]

 

 

 

I understand that they are not designed to be a police force, that is why this is so good. It has many opportunities for bad things to happen. On one hand the members will protect from raiders and other things, but they will be extremely nervous and make mistakes when it comes to the policing of the settlements themselves. It opens up lots of sidequest options.

 

I have a difficult time imagining them being nervous when it came to policing. I believe they would just be lacking police training and many of them would handle situations more militarily thus causing friction between the BoS and civilians.

 

As for the bunker; add some more areas to it. There are 2 large doors inside the bunker that can't be opened by the player. After the end of the game maybe the BoS finds a way to open it, or if the NCR get's their hands on the bunker then they find a way and they mention that the BoS might not have wanted you in those locations do to the work being done.

 

Remember they are isolationist at nature. So I can see them being nervous just being around others, let alone having to be responsible for them. Also it is stated that the NCR has the same problem of handling situations militarily and not like a police force. So what is the difference between having the BoS protecting them and not the NCR

 

 

I kind of do not understand what you mean about the bunker (do you mean the L38 or the BOS bunker), and the second part of that statement was hard for me to understand. Can you reword that?

 

 

1) the NCR does have a trained police force, although it's just not well known due to them only showing up in Fallout 2. The NCR does have problems when the military is used as a police force (e.g. Primm). I'd imagine that the BoS would have a more difficult time due to them not being familiar with the towns, people, or culture while the NCR trades and communicate with local towns. As for being nervous, the BoS would be in power armour and have advanced weaponry so I have a difficult time imagining them nervous.

 

2) My apologies, I meant the BoS bunker at Hidden Valley. Earlier I had posted an idea of the NCR taking control of Hidden Valley by force or if the courier killed the members located within the bunker the NCR would just walk in and set up shop. Whomever controls the bunker could open it up after the 2nd battle of Hoover Damn, reason being the NCR/BoS would trust the player more now that they were aided in defeating their enemies.

 

3) (this is for Devin) if you do create the quest in which the NCR takes control of Hidden Valley. One way the courier could help (if the BoS is hostile to the player and has power armour training) is if the NCR ambushes a BoS patrol, has the courier put on the armour and enter under the disguise of the sole survivor of the patrol. The courier must then quickly go to the room where the self destruct computer is located, distract or kill the 2 npcs in the room and disable the self destruct. Once that's done the NCR will receive the signal too attack and the player will have too fight his way to the elder and either capture or kill him.

[blaze1514]

I am not saying they police the areas, If you read my posts I say protect. That means that they are mainly there to help against attacks (raiders, legion remnants, powder gangers, etc...). I didn't plan on them searching for children, chasing down suspects, or quelling disputes. They just protect, the individual member can decide how involved he/she wants to be in the towns domestic problems.

[dangman4ever]

I am not saying they protect the dam, I am saying they have 2 or so scribs there studying it. The other towns however would only need 2 or so BoS guards (maybe just one in Aerotek and Boulder.

 

 

I understand that their are less than 100 members in that bunker (under 50 if you go by literal in-game amounts), but what I am suggesting would take 15 or less members to accomplish. There is a reason I left out Freeside, Westside and North Vegas, Because of the brotherhoods small member count it would be impossible for them to protect those places.

 

I understand that they are not designed to be a police force, that is why this is so good. It has many opportunities for bad things to happen. On one hand the members will protect from raiders and other things, but they will be extremely nervous and make mistakes when it comes to the policing of the settlements themselves. It opens up lots of sidequest options.

 

So setting them up to fail? That's a bit...messed up.

I am not saying they police the areas, If you read my posts I say protect. That means that they are mainly there to help against attacks (raiders, legion remnants, powder gangers, etc...). I didn't plan on them searching for children, chasing down suspects, or quelling disputes. They just protect, the individual member can decide how involved he/she wants to be in the towns domestic problems.

The problem is that 1-2 BoS, even in power armor, aren't enough to do basic defenses of the towns in question. Remember that the current BoS are basically composed of ill-trained and ill-experienced personnel. Only their power armor gives them an edge and even then that edge can be negated. Assuming that it's the Courier who's doing the proposal of the BoS to guard those towns, considering that all that the Courier has done in the game and the fact the Courier is a member of the BoS, I don't find it believable that the Courier would knowingly spread out inexperienced and ill trained BoS Paladins in numbers too small to effectively defend those settlements.

 

As for the "not saying they police the areas", you did say this earlier:

 

I also would think that there should be an option (if you are a member) to have the brotherhood set up FO 1&2 style posts/offices in some of the cities. Effectively policing the cities that are too unimportant for protection by others.

 

[blaze1514]

 

I am not saying they protect the dam, I am saying they have 2 or so scribs there studying it. The other towns however would only need 2 or so BoS guards (maybe just one in Aerotek and Boulder.

 

 

I understand that their are less than 100 members in that bunker (under 50 if you go by literal in-game amounts), but what I am suggesting would take 15 or less members to accomplish. There is a reason I left out Freeside, Westside and North Vegas, Because of the brotherhoods small member count it would be impossible for them to protect those places.

 

I understand that they are not designed to be a police force, that is why this is so good. It has many opportunities for bad things to happen. On one hand the members will protect from raiders and other things, but they will be extremely nervous and make mistakes when it comes to the policing of the settlements themselves. It opens up lots of sidequest options.

 

So setting them up to fail? That's a bit...messed up.

I am not saying they police the areas, If you read my posts I say protect. That means that they are mainly there to help against attacks (raiders, legion remnants, powder gangers, etc...). I didn't plan on them searching for children, chasing down suspects, or quelling disputes. They just protect, the individual member can decide how involved he/she wants to be in the towns domestic problems.

The problem is that 1-2 BoS, even in power armor, aren't enough to do basic defenses of the towns in question. Remember that the current BoS are basically composed of ill-trained and ill-experienced personnel. Only their power armor gives them an edge and even then that edge can be negated. Assuming that it's the Courier who's doing the proposal of the BoS to guard those towns, considering that all that the Courier has done in the game and the fact the Courier is a member of the BoS, I don't find it believable that the Courier would knowingly spread out inexperienced and ill trained BoS Paladins in numbers too small to effectively defend those settlements.

 

As for the "not saying they police the areas", you did say this earlier:

 

I also would think that there should be an option (if you are a member) to have the brotherhood set up FO 1&2 style posts/offices in some of the cities. Effectively policing the cities that are too unimportant for protection by others.

 

 

Oh, that was my first post I forgot that was there. I have changed most to say protect, as that is more of my intention (lore wise).

 

If we do 4 (a small squad) for each larger outlying town. Prim, Goodsprings, and Novac that is 12. Then we do 2 for Boulder and 2 for Arotec that is 16. Now we put 2 or 3 scribes in the dam, and 1- 2 in the 38 that is just 20. That is still a manageable amount.

 

Oh and stop being so literal, the amount of NPC's in the game doesn't accurately reflect what it would be in the actual universe. 2-4 bos members could be about 6-12 people realistically.

[dangman4ever]

 

 

I am not saying they protect the dam, I am saying they have 2 or so scribs there studying it. The other towns however would only need 2 or so BoS guards (maybe just one in Aerotek and Boulder.

 

 

I understand that their are less than 100 members in that bunker (under 50 if you go by literal in-game amounts), but what I am suggesting would take 15 or less members to accomplish. There is a reason I left out Freeside, Westside and North Vegas, Because of the brotherhoods small member count it would be impossible for them to protect those places.

 

I understand that they are not designed to be a police force, that is why this is so good. It has many opportunities for bad things to happen. On one hand the members will protect from raiders and other things, but they will be extremely nervous and make mistakes when it comes to the policing of the settlements themselves. It opens up lots of sidequest options.

 

So setting them up to fail? That's a bit...messed up.

I am not saying they police the areas, If you read my posts I say protect. That means that they are mainly there to help against attacks (raiders, legion remnants, powder gangers, etc...). I didn't plan on them searching for children, chasing down suspects, or quelling disputes. They just protect, the individual member can decide how involved he/she wants to be in the towns domestic problems.

The problem is that 1-2 BoS, even in power armor, aren't enough to do basic defenses of the towns in question. Remember that the current BoS are basically composed of ill-trained and ill-experienced personnel. Only their power armor gives them an edge and even then that edge can be negated. Assuming that it's the Courier who's doing the proposal of the BoS to guard those towns, considering that all that the Courier has done in the game and the fact the Courier is a member of the BoS, I don't find it believable that the Courier would knowingly spread out inexperienced and ill trained BoS Paladins in numbers too small to effectively defend those settlements.

 

As for the "not saying they police the areas", you did say this earlier:

 

I also would think that there should be an option (if you are a member) to have the brotherhood set up FO 1&2 style posts/offices in some of the cities. Effectively policing the cities that are too unimportant for protection by others.

 

 

Oh, that was my first post I forgot that was there. I have changed most to say protect, as that is more of my intention (lore wise).

 

If we do 4 (a small squad) for each larger outlying town. Prim, Goodsprings, and Novac that is 12. Then we do 2 for Boulder and 2 for Arotec that is 16. Now we put 2 or 3 scribes in the dam, and 1- 2 in the 38 that is just 20. That is still a manageable amount.

 

Oh and stop being so literal, the amount of NPC's in the game doesn't accurately reflect what it would be in the actual universe. 2-4 bos members could be about 6-12 people realistically.

 

The in-game lore and comments by the lead developer of Fallout New Vegas already supports my previous statements that the Mojave BoS are still both A) a very small organization as a result of massive losses and B) very inexperienced. SO 6-12 is still rather a bit..over-estimating.

 

Since you mentioned "realistically", realistically, in order to defend a position well, you need to send out patrols to gather intelligence and to find the enemy. In fact, this already happens in-game at night when a 3-4 man patrol goes out from the bunker for a patrol. This is happening when technically no-one knows for sure where the Mojave BoS are. Now factor in the fact that those towns you've mentioned are very visible and better known. Even if we split those four-man teams up into two elements, one to hold the town and one to patrol, two man patrol teams aren't exactly effective IRL and has already been confirmed in-game as well. Nor would it be a good idea to send the entire BoS force on a patrol and therefore leaving the towns relatively undefended. So IMO larger patrol teams are needed.

 

So in addition the numbers you've already stated, another four man fire-team would be needed for each larger outlying town in order to do effective patrols. So 8 per town. That would make it 34 personnel total if we only include the extra patrols for GoodSprings, Primm, and Novac. You did mention earlier that the BoS has less than a hundred members. 34 is a huge chunk of that membership.

 

Plus what about supplies for the BoS teams? While food, water, and accommodations can be purchased from the locals of each of those towns, ammo, spare parts, and support personnel to maintain the armor aren't exactly readily available in those towns. So I would imagine that there'd be a single relatively large BoS caravan (8 Paladins plus two scribes and brahmin) looping through each of those BoS positions.

Edited June 28, 2014 by dangman4ever

[blaze1514]

The in-game lore and comments by the lead developer of Fallout New Vegas already supports my previous statements that the Mojave BoS are still both A) a very small organization as a result of massive losses and B) very inexperienced. SO 6-12 is still rather a bit..over-estimating.

Comments by the lead developer makes it cannon not lore. There is a difference. There are some lore and immersion breaking things that are cannon, and there are some very good mods that fit perfect in the lore that are not cannon. Now with that said I agree with you for the most part. What do you think they will be fighting? I said raiders, Powder Gangers, and small amounts of Legion remnants on retreat from the dam. I am sure that these enemies will not pose any problem for the power-armored members of the brotherhood. No matter how inexperienced they are. If they are not able to take care of those problems, they would not just be inexperienced they would be incompetent.

 

 

 

: Since you mentioned "realistically", realistically, in order to defend a position well, you need to send out patrols to gather intelligence and to find the enemy. In fact, this already happens in-game at night when a 3-4 man patrol goes out from the bunker for a patrol. This is happening when technically no-one knows for sure where the Mojave BoS are. Now factor in the fact that those towns you've mentioned are very visible and better known. Even if we split those four-man teams up into two elements, one to hold the town and one to patrol, two man patrol teams aren't exactly effective IRL and has already been confirmed in-game as well. Nor would it be a good idea to send the entire BoS force on a patrol and therefore leaving the towns relatively undefended. So IMO larger patrol teams are needed.

1- Why would they need more than 4? Take prim, you give them a sheriff and he works alone (or with a team of 4 rangers, so 5 people. Just one more than I am suggesting). Novac has two (one if you are taking boon) people protecting it already. Goodsprings is arguably unprotected. How would giving 4 more people to these towns would not be enough. Or if you think that isn't enough, go the Lions route and have them work with locals to protect the town. 2 or so BoS Paladins advising and 4 or so militia members. Oh and you entirely missed the point on what I meant when I said realistically.

 

 

 

So in addition the numbers you've already stated, another four man fire-team would be needed for each larger outlying town in order to do effective patrols. So 8 per town. That would make it 34 personnel total if we only include the extra patrols for GoodSprings, Primm, and Novac. You did mention earlier that the BoS has less than a hundred members. 34 is a huge chunk of that membership.

If the problem is that you think that 4 man teams are not enough, then how about 6 man teams (26 members) Then 2 could always be in the town of question, and 4 to do whatever it is you are saying they do (by the way you are saying a squad needs to patrol away from town, I do not understand why, when there goal is to protect the town not the areas around it). None of this would be any worse than the NCR, using 2 people to guard an important trading post, and about for or less guarding WATER pumps (That is going by the in game literal numbers). I am not saying that they do as good (or as bad) as the NCR. I am saying that it would be better than just dropping the settlements as too unimportant to get protection.

 

 

 

Plus what about supplies for the BoS teams? While food, water, and accommodations can be purchased from the locals of each of those towns, ammo, spare parts, and support personnel to maintain the armor aren't exactly readily available in those towns. So I would imagine that there'd be a single relatively large BoS caravan (8 Paladins plus two scribes and brahmin) looping through each of those BoS positions.

I thought about this as well. I didnt say it as I figured the mod maker would have better ideas about how he wanted to implement this if he does. One- there are a few endings where the brotherhood have to patrol the trade routes. These patrols (maybe 2 teams of 4-6) would be used as both patrols and as supply runners that deliver supplies to the protection every few days. Two- They use a few Procurement Scribes (Like veronica) to deliver them a supply every few weeks. Three- As the members are just protecting the towns and not in an active combat situation, the use of military supplies would be low. They just radio the bunker and request more supplies when they start getting low, those are delivered by Procurement Scribes, Knights, civilian supply runners (couriers or by militia if you went with that idea), or trade caravans contracted to deliver for them (since they will not be hiding from the NCR they would probably be interacting with traders). There are many ways that this could be implemented, s0 many if fact that there will definitely be a way to do it to make most people happy.

Edited June 28, 2014 by blaze1514

[Devilman1975]

Brotherhood of Steel

 

Even though I didn't mind helping out Elder Lyons in Fallout 3 and the Mojave chapter under McNamara I've always felt that both games railroad the player into joining the Brotherhood. Elder Lyons declares me a Brotherhood Knight while I'm in a coma and I only ask to join the Mojave chapter just to start the final Brotherhood mission and gain access to the top tier goods from their merchant.

 

In regards to the Brotherhood taking over HELIOS One in the end slides I believe there was a case of developer's oversight in the Legion/Brotherhood ending. Admittedly I have not done a Legion playthrough of New Vegas but I know that Caesar commands the player to destroy the Brotherhood which would result in the ending (where they take over HELIOS One during the battle at Hoover Dam but are chased off by the Legion) being overwritten by the ending slide that depicts Hidden Valley's destruction.

 

The other ending where the Brotherhood takes over HELIOS One in the Independence ending only happens if Hardin is made Elder, Securitrons are not upgraded and the player deciding to spare the Brotherhood. I'm not keen on offering the Brotherhood control of HELIOS One under either Elder due to the likelihood that they'll eventually discover the real purpose of HELIOS One and possibly whip up a replacement for the Euclid C-Finder.

 

The other Independent ending for the Brotherhood results in them harassing travelers and caravans for tech if the player has negotiated a truce with the NCR and the Securitrons not being upgraded. This could result in caravan companies like Crimson Caravans and settlements requesting the player to deal with the Brotherhood at some point in the future. The player can be tasked with trying to convince McNamara to stop harassing people for tech and offer to help the Brotherhood achieve their goals in exchange for their help in the region or consider them a loose end needing to be tied up and finally have the chapter wiped out.

 

I believe that it would only be possible to have the Brotherhood as an ally if McNamara remains as Elder. Hardin on the other hand will eventually become a problem for the player at some point in the future.

 

Nevada Desert Rangers

 

Devin, if you haven't checked out the Russell companion mod I would suggest giving it a go. It offers a lore friendly insight into the Nevada Desert Rangers.

 

In regards to making the Nevada Desert Rangers a part of the new Mojave Army after kicking out the NCR I think it's only fair to offer them the choice to stay behind. After all for a lot of them the Mojave is still their home and they were defending the region against the Legion long before the NCR showed up. I can't blame them for joining the NCR considering that they were significantly outnumbered by the Legion.

 

While I suggested keeping Camp Golf as a base for the Nevada Desert Rangers I believe that SgtKraig suggested turning it a resort for the rich and influential. I would suggest having that option available for players don't want to keep the Nevada Desert Rangers around. Regardless of which option is chosen I think that the resort house itself could do with being cleaned up and restored.

[blaze1514]

Brotherhood of Steel

 

Even though I didn't mind helping out Elder Lyons in Fallout 3 and the Mojave chapter under McNamara I've always felt that both games railroad the player into joining the Brotherhood. Elder Lyons declares me a Brotherhood Knight while I'm in a coma and I only ask to join the Mojave chapter just to start the final Brotherhood mission and gain access to the top tier goods from their merchant.

 

Railroaded? I dont think so. In Fo3 they were like the only faction. Joining them is part of the story and canon in Fo3. NV doesn't force you to me a member. You choose to be to get their crap. I have done many playthroughs where I am not a member. I never use the vender there anyway (its always buggy for me). I do not want to force (railroad) people into this. That is not what I am meaning to say. I just think that it should be an option. There nothing wrong with options.

Edited June 28, 2014 by blaze1514

[Devilman1975]

 

Railroaded? I dont think so. In Fo3 they were like the only faction. Joining them is part of the story and canon in Fo3. NV doesn't force you to me a member. You choose to be to get their crap. I have done many playthroughs where I am not a member. I never use the vender there anyway (its always buggy for me). I do not want to force (railroad) people into this. That is not what I am meaning to say. I just think that it should be an option. There nothing wrong with options.

 

I'm sorry Blaze1514 but I'm going to disagree with you on this. In Fallout 3, I could play as a character who does every evil thing imaginable in the game and I'm still invited to join the Brotherhood of Steel at the end of the main quest. There was no option to join the Enclave instead or any option to say to Elder Lyons "I appreciate the offer, but I prefer to remain independent. However you can count on my help against the Enclave". It's only until after I fire missiles from the Enclave Mobile Platform upon the Citadel that the Brotherhood idiots finally realize that they shouldn't have invited the person that Three Dog refers to as the devil into their group. This is where Fallout 3 failed for me as a game and that New Vegas was able to much better by letting the player become part of the Evil faction even though the Legion weren't as developed as the developers would have liked.

 

As for joining the Mojave chapter of the Brotherhood, after the lockdown has been lifted there is no option to ask McNamara "Is there anything else I can do for you?" if we want to do the last Brotherhood mission. All we get instead is "Can I join the Brotherhood?" or "See you later". McNamara may not share Lyons' habit of making people in comas members of the Brotherhood and the player has a choice of joining the Brotherhood but it still feels that the player is forced to join just to go to Black Mountain and flip a switch if they have already been there previously to recruit Raul.