An independent New Vegas mod.

[blaze1514]

 

 

Railroaded? I dont think so. In Fo3 they were like the only faction. Joining them is part of the story and canon in Fo3. NV doesn't force you to me a member. You choose to be to get their crap. I have done many playthroughs where I am not a member. I never use the vender there anyway (its always buggy for me). I do not want to force (railroad) people into this. That is not what I am meaning to say. I just think that it should be an option. There nothing wrong with options.

 

I'm sorry Blaze1514 but I'm going to disagree with you on this. In Fallout 3, I could play as a character who does every evil thing imaginable in the game and I'm still invited to join the Brotherhood of Steel at the end of the main quest. There was no option to join the Enclave instead or any option to say to Elder Lyons "I appreciate the offer, but I prefer to remain independent. However you can count on my help against the Enclave". It's only until after I fire missiles from the Enclave Mobile Platform upon the Citadel that the Brotherhood idiots finally realize that they shouldn't have invited the person that Three Dog refers to as the devil into their group. This is where Fallout 3 failed for me as a game and that New Vegas was able to much better by letting the player become part of the Evil faction even though the Legion weren't as developed as the developers would have liked.

 

As for joining the Mojave chapter of the Brotherhood, after the lockdown has been lifted there is no option to ask McNamara "Is there anything else I can do for you?" if we want to do the last Brotherhood mission. All we get instead is "Can I join the Brotherhood?" or "See you later". McNamara may not share Lyons' habit of making people in comas members of the Brotherhood and the player has a choice of joining the Brotherhood but it still feels that the player is forced to join just to go to Black Mountain and flip a switch if they have already been there previously to recruit Raul.

 

Ok I get and agree where you are coming from on Fo3. I however believe that to be a problem with the way they handled karma and the factions in the DC Wasteland.

 

On NV however, I get where you are coming from, but I do not agree as much. Mainly because people tend to view that game with a blurred scope because of the sheer amount of replaced cut content available. What I mean is that if it was that one dialogue option that bothers you, you could add a "I want access to your weapons" option into the game with a reply of "anything you ask" or some other thing that he actually says that you could fit in (or ask someone to do it). I have always felt that the sheer inconclusive ending and the unclear nature surrounding what is considered canon in NV, leaves it open to certain small amounts of.... tweaks while still maintaining a true to the universe feel.

[TheBlueKidd]

How's this coming along? Any actual progress or are things still largely in the conceptual stage? Edited June 28, 2014 by TheBlueKidd

[dangman4ever]

 

Now with that said I agree with you for the most part. What do you think they will be fighting? I said raiders, Powder Gangers, and small amounts of Legion remnants on retreat from the dam. I am sure that these enemies will not pose any problem for the power-armored members of the brotherhood. No matter how inexperienced they are. If they are not able to take care of those problems, they would not just be inexperienced they would be incompetent.

I agree with your list of possible threats but I would add in rogue NCR forces. However, as I disagree about the BoS's ability to adequately fight those possible threats. The game already shows that a decently if not well trained Legion force equipped with mainly sportswear and weapons that are generally inferior if not outright archaic (the throwing spears) prevailing against in-experienced NCR forces equipped with heavier firepower and far better armor. In fact, in FO3, there's even an encounter where the player checks out an Enclave outpost and is suddenly attacked by raiders wearing random Enclave armor pieces and wielding Enclave weapons. The implication being that the raiders had attacked and overwhelmed the Enclave force and wear now taking Enclave loot.

In-experience alone is more than enough reason for a BoS force to fail miserably. The game has a few examples of BoS inexperience already:

1) Inexperienced with dealing with the Boomers and their heavy artillery, two Paladins walked straight into Boomer fire thinking that their power armor would be enough to deal with the artillery.

2) Generally inexperienced, two Initiates had wandered outside the bunker and found themselves at the bottom of valley surrounded on all sides by bark scorpions and rad scorpions. Despite having the range and firepower advantage, the two Initiates panicked and even left behind a laspistol.

1- Why would they need more than 4? Take prim, you give them a sheriff and he works alone (or with a team of 4 rangers, so 5 people. Just one more than I am suggesting). Novac has two (one if you are taking boon) people protecting it already. Goodsprings is arguably unprotected. How would giving 4 more people to these towns would not be enough. Or if you think that isn't enough, go the Lions route and have them work with locals to protect the town. 2 or so BoS Paladins advising and 4 or so militia members. Oh and you entirely missed the point on what I meant when I said realistically.

If the problem is that you think that 4 man teams are not enough, then how about 6 man teams (26 members) Then 2 could always be in the town of question, and 4 to do whatever it is you are saying they do (by the way you are saying a squad needs to patrol away from town, I do not understand why, when there goal is to protect the town not the areas around it). None of this would be any worse than the NCR, using 2 people to guard an important trading post, and about for or less guarding WATER pumps (That is going by the in game literal numbers). I am not saying that they do as good (or as bad) as the NCR. I am saying that it would be better than just dropping the settlements as too unimportant to get protection.

I should clarify: I'm not saying patrol far away from the town but just patrolling the immediate areas that are not visually clear from the settlements but yet is within range of the settlement's weaponry and/or observation (the term is "dead space"). The whole point of a patrol is to provide early warning of incoming enemy forces. This is basic modern military tactics: In order to defend a position well, you need to send out patrols to scout the area and find the enemy first. Otherwise, you'll easily be surprised by an enemy force, especially if the enemy force is coming through the dead space. A recent and famous example of this is Battle of Wanat: Because U.S forces did not adequately patrol a particular dead space near Combat Outpost Kahler, the Taliban were able to use that dead space to move in forces closer to the COP than normal. This allowed the Taliban to inflict heavy casualties on U.S forces.

I'm trying to say that if it's the Courior that is proposing these defence plans, wouldn't you think that the Courier is experienced and knowledgeable enough to know what happens you try to defend an area with limited numbers, poor tactics, and intelligence? The Courier would have already seen the end results of that via the NCR VS Legion encounters as well possibly his or her own experience. IN other words, the Courier would make sure that thos settlements are actually protected.

But I agree six is a reasonable-ish number considering that the settlements do have some protection already. Novac also has the two armed guards following the doctor around and always has an armed caravan running the town which could provide extra firepower/manpower if needed. Goodsprings is somewhat protected IMO since we're talking about something happening after Ghost Town Gunfight. Most of the members of that town is part of the militia. So we have Trudy, Sunny, and Easy Pete alongside the four settlers which makes up for a total of 7 armed personnel.

[Thenryb]

How's this coming along? Any actual progress or are things still largely in the conceptual stage?

LOL. The first post was over two years ago. The entire thread seems to be a theoretical discussion only.

[TheBlueKidd]

 

How's this coming along? Any actual progress or are things still largely in the conceptual stage?

 

LOL. The first post was over two years ago. The entire thread seems to be a theoretical discussion only.

Haha, yeah I know. I'm just holding out hope that someone will actually do this. A wastelander can dream, can't they?

[TheCourier13]

 

How's this coming along? Any actual progress or are things still largely in the conceptual stage?

LOL. The first post was over two years ago. The entire thread seems to be a theoretical discussion only.

 

I sincerely hope that's not the case, and that there's been more progress than just this thread.

[devinpatterson]

 

How's this coming along? Any actual progress or are things still largely in the conceptual stage?

LOL. The first post was over two years ago. The entire thread seems to be a theoretical discussion only.

 

 

 

Haha, yeah I know. I'm just holding out hope that someone will actually do this. A wastelander can dream, can't they?

 

&

 

I sincerely hope that's not the case, and that there's been more progress than just this thread.

 

Don't sweat it, Thenryb has no clue.

 

The march beta is here An end to the infinity war-Viva New Vegas, it focuses primarily on cleaning up the dam, fort and legate camp, but also has some additional changes. Any beta testing is appreciated. This page has teh new companion (Marilyn securitron) and NCR player office/house in hoover.

 

Next on the "to do" list is the strip, can't say when I'll get a chance to work on it though. Bit busy with several projects and requests.

[blaze1514]

 

 

Now with that said I agree with you for the most part. What do you think they will be fighting? I said raiders, Powder Gangers, and small amounts of Legion remnants on retreat from the dam. I am sure that these enemies will not pose any problem for the power-armored members of the brotherhood. No matter how inexperienced they are. If they are not able to take care of those problems, they would not just be inexperienced they would be incompetent.

I agree with your list of possible threats but I would add in rogue NCR forces. However, as I disagree about the BoS's ability to adequately fight those possible threats. The game already shows that a decently if not well trained Legion force equipped with mainly sportswear and weapons that are generally inferior if not outright archaic (the throwing spears) prevailing against in-experienced NCR forces equipped with heavier firepower and far better armor. In fact, in FO3, there's even an encounter where the player checks out an Enclave outpost and is suddenly attacked by raiders wearing random Enclave armor pieces and wielding Enclave weapons. The implication being that the raiders had attacked and overwhelmed the Enclave force and wear now taking Enclave loot.

In-experience alone is more than enough reason for a BoS force to fail miserably. The game has a few examples of BoS inexperience already:

1) Inexperienced with dealing with the Boomers and their heavy artillery, two Paladins walked straight into Boomer fire thinking that their power armor would be enough to deal with the artillery.

2) Generally inexperienced, two Initiates had wandered outside the bunker and found themselves at the bottom of valley surrounded on all sides by bark scorpions and rad scorpions. Despite having the range and firepower advantage, the two Initiates panicked and even left behind a laspistol.

1- Why would they need more than 4? Take prim, you give them a sheriff and he works alone (or with a team of 4 rangers, so 5 people. Just one more than I am suggesting). Novac has two (one if you are taking boon) people protecting it already. Goodsprings is arguably unprotected. How would giving 4 more people to these towns would not be enough. Or if you think that isn't enough, go the Lions route and have them work with locals to protect the town. 2 or so BoS Paladins advising and 4 or so militia members. Oh and you entirely missed the point on what I meant when I said realistically.

If the problem is that you think that 4 man teams are not enough, then how about 6 man teams (26 members) Then 2 could always be in the town of question, and 4 to do whatever it is you are saying they do (by the way you are saying a squad needs to patrol away from town, I do not understand why, when there goal is to protect the town not the areas around it). None of this would be any worse than the NCR, using 2 people to guard an important trading post, and about for or less guarding WATER pumps (That is going by the in game literal numbers). I am not saying that they do as good (or as bad) as the NCR. I am saying that it would be better than just dropping the settlements as too unimportant to get protection.

I should clarify: I'm not saying patrol far away from the town but just patrolling the immediate areas that are not visually clear from the settlements but yet is within range of the settlement's weaponry and/or observation (the term is "dead space"). The whole point of a patrol is to provide early warning of incoming enemy forces. This is basic modern military tactics: In order to defend a position well, you need to send out patrols to scout the area and find the enemy first. Otherwise, you'll easily be surprised by an enemy force, especially if the enemy force is coming through the dead space. A recent and famous example of this is Battle of Wanat: Because U.S forces did not adequately patrol a particular dead space near Combat Outpost Kahler, the Taliban were able to use that dead space to move in forces closer to the COP than normal. This allowed the Taliban to inflict heavy casualties on U.S forces.

I'm trying to say that if it's the Courior that is proposing these defence plans, wouldn't you think that the Courier is experienced and knowledgeable enough to know what happens you try to defend an area with limited numbers, poor tactics, and intelligence? The Courier would have already seen the end results of that via the NCR VS Legion encounters as well possibly his or her own experience. IN other words, the Courier would make sure that thos settlements are actually protected.

But I agree six is a reasonable-ish number considering that the settlements do have some protection already. Novac also has the two armed guards following the doctor around and always has an armed caravan running the town which could provide extra firepower/manpower if needed. Goodsprings is somewhat protected IMO since we're talking about something happening after Ghost Town Gunfight. Most of the members of that town is part of the militia. So we have Trudy, Sunny, and Easy Pete alongside the four settlers which makes up for a total of 7 armed personnel.

On the the point of inexperience. Most NCR Troopers have only 2 weeks of training, it is also implied that most do not get adequate armor and supplies (see: the trading post arms dealer. Think Drag's NCR, it represents this well). Rogue NCR forces would be just as or more inexperienced as the remaining Mojave BoS. Especially if they are a rogue squad/platoon, nothing says inexperienced like "Lets do this on our own, with no backup".

The NCR in general though is just as or more incompetent than the Mojave BoS, one of their trooper camps gets over ran by walking fish, they cannot break a stalemate between a major military position and a town occupied by about 10 legion soldiers, they cannot protect at town from escaped convicts. That was all lower level messes I didn't even talk about the high ranking messups. Like, the whole situation at the dam is one, then the fact fact that the NCR hires an idiot to head up research at a power plant, they cannot supply the basic needs of their troopers. the NCR president makes a speech in a dangerous warzone. The whole NCR is one incompetent blunder after another. So why are you ok with them say protecting prim, but having the brotherhood there is unwise to you?

 

Thank you for the explanation on the dead zones. I think I understand what you are getting at. If the brotherhood was protecting Prim, then they would want to go check the underpass, and the area across the underpass where the NCR was stationed, and the area to the left of the Bison Steve (the homes and the hill) because they are not visually clear from the main area in town. That what you are saying right? If so that makes sense.

 

 

 

Now I had a thought. If you are like me then you get the enclave remnants for the dam. What if we expand on that? Lets say that instead of just disappearing into obscurity, they start a new Enclave. Now I know that sounds far fetched... hear me out. After they get done with the dam the remnants start a PMC group. They will recruit more members and train them. They will have a building or area they use as a base (Nipton after it is cleaned, Nelson, Repcon Offices/Facility, or if you killed the boomers: Nellis, if you drove away the mutants: Jacobstown). In this base they take in people that are willing to join and have a small community. They call themselves the New Enclave (of course they will be equipped with less advanced stuff than normal, but it is a nice thought). Even if this isn't put in (I wouldn't expect it to be) It is still a nice thought.

Edited June 29, 2014 by blaze1514

[TheCourier13]

 

 

How's this coming along? Any actual progress or are things still largely in the conceptual stage?

LOL. The first post was over two years ago. The entire thread seems to be a theoretical discussion only.

 

 

 

Haha, yeah I know. I'm just holding out hope that someone will actually do this. A wastelander can dream, can't they?

 

&

 

I sincerely hope that's not the case, and that there's been more progress than just this thread.

 

Don't sweat it, Thenryb has no clue.

 

The march beta is here An end to the infinity war-Viva New Vegas, it focuses primarily on cleaning up the dam, fort and legate camp, but also has some additional changes. Any beta testing is appreciated. This page has teh new companion (Marilyn securitron) and NCR player office/house in hoover.

 

Next on the "to do" list is the strip, can't say when I'll get a chance to work on it though. Bit busy with several projects and requests.

 

Thank God, my hopes for this mod are no less than what I have for Project Brazil, Fallout the Story, and NVB III and any other future mods from someguy2000.

[dangman4ever]

 

Rogue NCR forces would be just as or more inexperienced as the remaining Mojave BoS. Especially if they are a rogue squad/platoon, nothing says inexperienced like "Lets do this on our own, with no backup".

To be fair, a lot of the Vipers and Jackals are exactly like that: small groups on their own doing criminal activity to survive. Yet they're doing relatively well in the Mojave. Now these rogue NCR forces would be like the Vipers and Jackals arguably carry heavier firepower than the Vipers and Jackals and have more armor to boot. Two weeks of basic training would give them a slight edge over Vipers. So I can see rogue NCR forces having a decent chance out on the Mojave.

 

The whole NCR is one incompetent blunder after another. So why are you ok with them say protecting prim, but having the brotherhood there is unwise to you?

Even the best trained troops in the world can be defeated or take massive casualties if they're being placed in hard to defend places with inadequate numbers to effectively defend. The Battle of Kamdesh in 2009 is a prime example of that: A relatively small U.S force was located at the bottom of a valley surrounded on three sides by mountains. Thus the local insurgents were able to inflict heavy casualties on U.S forces as a result.

Now go back to the game: I had no problem with the BoS protecting Primm as long they could do so with sufficient numbers. Your original proposal was two BoS members. I proposed 8 and we compromised on six. Two inexperienced BOS members would have been asking for trouble due to the workload involved in both protecting the town and patrolling the town. At least with six, you can spread some of that workload around and accumulate greater experience that can be shared. Think about: Would you benefit more from learning from the experiences of two soldiers or six soldiers?

Thank you for the explanation on the dead zones. I think I understand what you are getting at. If the brotherhood was protecting Prim, then they would want to go check the underpass, and the area across the underpass where the NCR was stationed, and the area to the left of the Bison Steve (the homes and the hill) because they are not visually clear from the main area in town. That what you are saying right? If so that makes sense.

Yup, that's exactly what I'm saying. For the BoS forces in Goodsprings, they would have to patrol near the Goodsprings source as a) that can't be clearly seen from Goodsprings and B) it's a vital source of water for the town. Novac has a lot of clear sightlines and open spaces but it also has multiple entries and access points and is relative large.

Edited June 29, 2014 by dangman4ever