An independent New Vegas mod.

[devinpatterson]

I saw you comment up there if it was possible for general oliver to start a coup disband the senate and all that jazz. We know from hanlon and others that the senate is extremely corrupt.

Yeah I wouldn't base your info on Hanlon. As an example ask 100 U.S. citizens if they think congress is corrupt. Remember congressional approval is at a all time low (roughly 15%). You will always have people of questionable morals attracted to positions of power, but your comparing an actual functioning Republic with a virtually lawless wasteland. In that light I think they'r doing pretty damn good.

 

If Oliver can convince members of the senate that loosing New Vegas means a big financial loss for them you could easily have a coup. Would Oliver be president doubtful but you could have a politician usurp the presidency and give Oliver his war.

OK that's not a coup, that's simple politics. We could have the very same thing happen here in the states. A president can loose an election, or be impeached, another can choose to go to war. A coup is the overthrow of a legitmate gov (the president and senate), often (but not always) by the military. To put it bluntly I don't see Oliver disbanding the senate and ursurping the presidency, that would be a coup.

 

I got the feeling that the NCR was more an oligarchy than democracy. Marcus even hints that the NCR is just as prone to Civil War as the legion is if Ceaser dies.

I believe they are a representative republic, much like we are in the states. And much like we do, they have factions and special interests that have more power than the average citizen. But that doesn't make them an oligarchy.

[devinpatterson]

Having Yes Man as the liaison might be a problem, especially if we are going with the first act having the securitrons go berserk and then become enemies. Now I know that nothing has yet to be set in stone, but assuming for this discussion we are following the scenario I proposed,

We won't be following your scenario per se, but an amalgam of several ideas, using parts and pieces from your suggestions, Lucia's and other contributors. NV won't be loosing it's Securitron army, it will be a in play for much later (quests especially in the Legion battles), It is the essential component of what makes a free/independent NV (the ability to defend itself). Yes man will become available shortly after the run and gun is over. Even if it is a long quest, he won't be needed until he's been rescued. I doubt any other quest lines will be open until the whole run and gun is over.

 

Here is an example; We'll be using beserk securitrons as Lucia suggested. But due to a programming/hacking failure of House's attempt to regain control. They won't be attacking each other, walls etc. The courier is too high level to hamstring the securitrons like that. It would be like shooting fish in a barrel. Now with their missles and coordinated small team tactics they can give the courier a run for his/her money, make it a real challenge and so some minor damage to the strip (much more damage to freeside).

 

From here your and Lucia's quest lines are very similar, with some minor variations and we can decide how much of the whole run and gun quest we want to build, based on how much work & time we want to put into it. It can go the whole circuit from nv, to McCaren, to sewers, to the CC, to vault 21 etc. But there won't be a troop invasion of NV to destroy the securitrons, instead the courier remains the focus. This will end with regaining control of the securitrons and Yesman returning to his normal state.

 

As far as damage to NV I'm still speculating/testing, but I think it will be too much work to make a cloned mini world. But probably adding rubble to block off sections, along with termporarily disabling various personalities we don't want killed, will be enough to provide that effect. There doesn't have to be grand scale damage, just enough rubble and destruction to "channel" the player into the the paths of the run and gun.

[devinpatterson]

Just some thoughts. I know you say you don't have plans to do anything with the DLCs but I can see some pretty big potential for incorporationg those.

We really have plenty to do as is, and feature creep will drown us in work.

[devinpatterson]

Since you guys are talking about a tent city on, or near the Dam - how about taking a look at Van Buren's version of the Hoover Dam for possible ideas?

Looks good, I'll check it out :thumbsup:

 

The Securitrons

If this is a repaint job, then they should probably look newer - the brown retexture makes them look a bit rusty. I personally prefer the basic blue version. I'm also a little unsure about the NCR monitor image - I mean I get wanting to make them look distinctive, but something about it just don't feel right to me. The securitrons all display faces - perhaps you could use an image of a Ranger instead? (Take a look at NCRPoster05 for what I mean).

Yeah the new look is what I was refeering to as clean texture. But it just doesn't feel right to me, so like you I prefer to keep the original texture with the emblems. The monitors, from what I theorize, are to soften the securitron's edge. I think that's why they use cartoons. But the NCR wouldn't have to worry about the public's response to a possibly intimidating product like House did. So for them, I doubt they will do any cartoons. I tried a ranger face (teh helmet) and it looked out of place. So the flag seems like a good compromise and certainly would fit with what the NCR would want to project.

 

Propaganda Displays

Since you can't make a model like I suggested, I thing I've come up with a good alternative - in OWB, there are large display screens, one of which is a moving eye that changes to the Think Tank in human form

I just don't see the NCR doing something like that. They don't do it anywhere else adn teh science for it doesn't sound like a common jury rigging project.

[LuciaofArroyo]

Let me know what you guys think. I made a mask so the securitron can be re-colored quickly and easily, if you think a different color would be more suited for an ncr bot. If not I'm leaning toward base texture, new icons & new screen.

 

 

Not bad.. you should definitely leave the main body in the original rusted blue and just recolor the upper ...ermm... "shoulder section"(?), maybe in trooper green or a blunt raw metal texture to match the NCR power armor corps? (with a red trim around the lining to match the power armor, of course)

 

http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20101023174208/fallout/images/b/bc/FNV_NCR_salvaged_armour.png

 

These would make a pretty cool "mobile artillery" addition to the NCR army huh?

 

 

What I think might be a easier sale would be him defying orders but (in his head) for the good of the NCR. Like Patton defying orders from his superiors, based on his own intuition/skill. So less of a coup adn more of a mis-directed patriotism to the NCR (and settling a personal grudge).

 

 

Absolutely, they mention in-game that the NCR citizens aren't happy about the war and their president is on his last legs in terms of popularity and influence, and Hanlon mentions that Oliver only got the job by being a buddy of the president so... Oliver would have a lot to lose if the Mojave War turned out badly; Kimball would be gotten rid of and Oliver would be next to go, so he could decide to stick around in the Mojave with most of his army while he pumps out the war propaganda messages to justify his continued pretense there- but really only so he can avoid going home and facing a dismissal.

 

The player could work with him in one instance or the storyline could involve being recruited by a senate official (New Reno!) to get rid of Oliver on their behalf... idk, there are a lot of ways it could go... but if Oliver refused to send his troops back, even though some of them may want to stay and fight, then the senate would consider him to have "gone rogue" in one way or another.

 

 

I took a look at the GECK files comparing the regular NCR armor to the Lonesome Road NCR armor, and they seem to use the regular NCR armor as a base for the Lonesome Road version- so, since you can retexture pretty well, see if you can dull down the colors on the NCR Trooper armor to get a kind of "beat up" version we can use for General Olivers renegades in the Independent/House/Legion Endings.

 

...something sort of halfway between "NCR-gone-bad" and "NCR-exhausted-and-damaged" that'd fit in with the Oliver angle.

 

 

Ever since you mentioned that aspect of Hoover damn I'v been seeing all kinds of spots that are *perfect* for a little tent city type setup. There is one that is down teh outside section where a big platform on the wall lies. I'll try to get a screen shot of it. I picture a odd mix of a commissary and bazar of NCR merchants there. The upper dam would be receiving various caravans, and perhaps single traveling merchants. Then of course there would be people catering to the Hoover staff. Start expanding it to it rivals rivet city. I definitely think it's do-able in both the NCR and independent ending (if the player wishes), only House would 86 the idea.

 

 

Since you guys are talking about a tent city on, or near the Dam - how about taking a look at Van Buren's version of the Hoover Dam for possible ideas?

 

 

I hadn't even looked at what the Van Buren ideal for the Dam was, but that's pretty damn near perfect.

 

It's not like it'd be unrealistic to have a large settlement at Hoover Dam after the dust settles from the war, i mean, it is the bridge into Arizona, a major trading hub linking Arizona to the Mojave and California... and there's the fact that it's a power station too, it'd require a lot of staff when it's fully functional and they'd need beds and shops... and monster infested lakes lol

 

http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Hoover_Dam_(Van_Buren)

http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100119002807/fallout/images/d/d3/VB_DD12_map_Rim.jpg

 

 

[devinpatterson]

These would make a pretty cool "mobile artillery" addition to the NCR army huh?

It would be great, but the way the quests are laid out only the House & Independent get a shot at teh upgraded missile launching MK II's. It's probably possible (havn't checked for sure) to follow the House or Independent quest line then change to NCR, but it'd probably be really rare. So I think the NCR mod is stuck with much fewer (the same number of Securitrons in the vanilla game) grenade launching, sub machine gun welding Mk I's.

 

 

Absolutely, they mention in-game that the NCR citizens aren't happy about the war and their president is on his last legs in terms of popularity and influence, and Hanlon mentions that Oliver only got the job by being a buddy of the president so... Oliver would have a lot to lose if the Mojave War turned out badly; Kimball would be gotten rid of and Oliver would be next to go, so he could decide to stick around in the Mojave with most of his army while he pumps out the war propaganda messages to justify his continued pretense there- but really only so he can avoid going home and facing a dismissal.

That sounds pretty plausible to me, IMHO.

 

The player could work with him in one instance or the storyline could involve being recruited by a senate official (New Reno!) to get rid of Oliver on their behalf... idk, there are a lot of ways it could go... but if Oliver refused to send his troops back, even though some of them may want to stay and fight, then the senate would consider him to have "gone rogue" in one way or another.

I like the idea of the player "collecting" Oliver as a bounty. But I wonder if it would be hard to write? If the player orders withdrawal, Oliver stays....against orders. The player and NCR are neutral so I'd assume at least three inducements; 1. you gotta take him out anyway simply for NV's protection. 2. an actual bounty (caps etc) is offered on Oliver by the NCR or 3. to try to mend fences with the NCR after pushing them out of a lot of the Mojave. Or all three?

 

 

I took a look at the GECK files comparing the regular NCR armor to the Lonesome Road NCR armor, and they seem to use the regular NCR armor as a base for the Lonesome Road version- so, since you can retexture pretty well, see if you can dull down the colors on the NCR Trooper armor to get a kind of "beat up" version we can use for General Olivers renegades in the Independent/House/Legion Endings.

 

...something sort of halfway between "NCR-gone-bad" and "NCR-exhausted-and-damaged" that'd fit in with the Oliver angle.

Sure I'll see what I can whip up. But, and you probably already know this, I'd go with a lot less troopers. Most are noncom at best, and probably just want to get back home. Instead I'd put a heavy number of NCR power armored troops that joined him out of personal loyalty. It makes sense, considering how he dotes on them as his "chosen". Plus a lot of them could actually make a little bit of trouble for a high level courier (whereas troopers, not so much). Then virtually (or actually), no Rangers. Oliver and the Rangers don't have the best rapport and I think ever since the desert ranger treaty they are pretty firmly entrenched to the NCR. I guess the last group would be gung ho troopers that harbor a hell of grudge for the savior of NV. But since those are unlikely to be very tough, I'd make tehm few in number.

 

 

It's not like it'd be unrealistic to have a large settlement at Hoover Dam after the dust settles from the war, i mean, it is the bridge into Arizona, a major trading hub linking Arizona to the Mojave and California... and there's the fact that it's a power station too, it'd require a lot of staff when it's fully functional and they'd need beds and shops... and monster infested lakes lol

 

True. The "independent free trade zone" probably wouldn't consider it much in the way of competition, and it would be an additional way to mend fences.

 

But we should probably keep it relatively low scale in the Independent mod. Just like enough to support the troops (food/resurants, commisary/baszr with a dozen shops etc) and as infrastructure for caravan trade flowing through from AZ.

 

For the NCR mod though we should go freak'n hog wild. Build up something akin to rivet city. They have the run of the dam and it's not like they can hop over to NV for lunch. I could see them having a crapload of shops and vendors living out of them. Sometimes refugees holding up until they are processed. Lots of caravan and trade moving through, etc etc. The NCR car levy the same standard tax rate as it uses on it's citizens. Perhaps with an additional % fee if they have a shop in the commissary/bazaar, since normally all the commissary funds get funneled back into the military. I could see something like that growing pretty fast/big. Might even have a little bit of (well regulated) the sin biz. Pales in comparison to NV, but a few tables, a few ladies of the night, some small shack bars etc.

 

For the independent mod with the NCR withdrawing/war, we could also offer the option, but I tend to think most players would spend the majority of their caps on restoring vegas and freeside. But heck you never know, some players may like the idea of building up Hoover as much as we do.

Edited July 21, 2013 by devinpatterson

[404nevada]

Okay, first of all, I just want to say that a post-Hoover Dam Battle New Vegas is awesome. Okay, so here are my ideas: I was thinking, maybe the NCR could help defend smaller establishments, positioning their men within the towns. Maybe the companions could integrate into the world, maybe as soldiers, continued allies of the Courier, doctors, and as overall heroes. Maybe the Boomers could aid the NCR with their weapon tech and resources. After forging an alliance with the NCR, maybe the Enclave and the Brotherhood could have a falling out, maybe some side conflicts. The distribution of electricity from Hoover Dam throughout the Mojave would also be a nice touch. Plus, maybe the Courier and his/her allies could help turn New Vegas into a new haven, even giving up the Lucky 38 for the people. Maybe House's drones could be used throughout the wastes, enforcing the law. I'd love to see alliances forged between the different factions, but I would also enjoy seeing the Fiends and Powder Gangers either being purged out of the land. That's about it for now. Thank you for this opportunity, and best of luck with the new world. I hope to be there to help you see it through.

[darkus37]

Securitrons and New Vegas

 

@devinpatterson - I don't expect all of the scenario I put forward to be used - truly - but I would like to explain and expand upon certain ideas so that maybe you would reconsider your decision on them – I apologize for any incoherence or rambling in advance:

 

First, a summary on the upgraded Securitrons. A Securitron MK II is basically a highly-mobile tank - armed with a mix of short and long-range weapons that could decimate most opponents, with the added bonus of being able to auto-repair themselves when damaged. While it appears to be limited to Victor and Yes Man (probably due to them being individualized A.I. programs) - they have the ability to jump from one body to another, with their memories and experience going with them (not unlike the Cylons from the Battlestar Galactica remake). Securitrons appear to be commanded from a central mainframe within the Lucky 38, probably using the broadcast antenna to make sure far-away securitrons like Victor can still receive orders. Now, Yes Man is an A.I. program (according to the Wiki) that was originally designed to take over the mainframe and follow orders - anyone's orders (as programmed by Emily Ortal for Benny). At the end of the game, Yes Man finds programming in the mainframe that allows himself to change his programming, with the supposed benefits of being more assertive so that the only orders he follows is the Courier’s.

 

Why the summation? Because I’m trying to point out that the upgraded securitrons are a game-breaking element to whatever quest-line anyone proposes: attacks by the Legion? send the securitrons; the miners acting up in Sloan? send the securitrons – so on and so forth. Or rather, it should be so on, as long as Yes Man is loyal to the Courier; then there is nothing to worry about. However, should Yes Man betray the Courier, or his control be disrupted; what would the Courier really be able to do then?

 

Now, my high-level Courier can probably kill one of these guys one-on-one with no problem, with the difficulty ratcheting up the more you add to the equation - that's with advanced armor and weapons, auto-inject stimpacks, and other assorted medical gear. I bring this up not to brag, but to point out how unlikely anything without those enhancements could stand against the Securitrons without numbers on their side - that is, assuming of course, we are talking about a set number and more are not being built in the Securitron vault with every passing moment. Anyone going up against this force would have to be suicidal or desperate - maybe a mix of the two.

 

So, with all that in mind - I (like LuciaofArroyo and others) proposed that the securitrons be partially neutralized (either through a virus or its equivalent) at the beginning of the mod - not completely destroyed or disabled, just temporarily neutralized. The attack on the mainframe caused by Mr. House’s failsafe (whatever that may be) - will either A) corrupt Yes Man, or B) leave Yes Man unavailable as he would be busy trying to fight the attack. This part can be amended of course, with say, a Yes Man backup unit as a quest giver; but I would think most people would be suspicious of Yes Man BU being a spy (a disguised Victor for example) or possible traitor (being controlled by the fail-safe if it should beat Yes Man). The battle between Yes Man and the failsafe within the Mainframe would explain why the Securtitrons remained within New Vegas’s borders and at the Dam instead of trying to hunt the player and/or NCR forces. Their defense of New Vegas (and other locations) could be something that both Yes Man and the fail-safe eventually “agreed” upon, so the securitrons are able to continue doing that without major problems.

 

The initial attack by the fail-safe will have caused the securitrons to go berserk (as LuciaofArroyo suggested) - the ones outside the Lucky 38 would go on a destructive rampage cause by their programming conflicts (including destroying one another); while the ones inside would not be attacking thanks to Yes Man protecting the Courier by excerpting direct control over those securitrons – this would explain the securitrons being motionless, or running into walls, etc. Upon leaving the Lucky 38, Yes Man would judge the Courier sufficiently ready and leave the player to their own defense – in the meantime, he would refocus on the mainframe attack. I suggest the securitrons killing one another because I really don’t see any other way to show them being berserk – the supposedly crazed versions at Big MT just had a different face but basically acted the same as any of the other enemies there. I should also clarify that “nerfing” the securitrons would only apply to those right outside the Lucky 38 at the beginning of the mod – after the fail-safe is able to take control, the securitrons would be back to their normal, over-powered selves. Yes Man, seeing that he was losing, decides to become a ghost in the machine – fighting the failsafe from within – this action would result in the securitrons stabilizing, but remaining in the defensive stance mentioned before.

 

When I suggested a battle for New Vegas with a troop alliance, I wasn’t talking about the outright destruction of every single securitron (although that might be worth taking a look at as a possibility) for the very reason you stated – without the securitrons, an Independent New Vegas would quickly fall. That said, a part of me dislikes being locked into that decision, especially after it has just been shown that control over them is not absolute - the alliance would give a viable replacement, especially if the IMM is built up. This would allows the option of something like the current NCR/Securitron setup of a human/robot combination force. I suggested a “Battle For New Vegas” not only for the alliance troops to be able to visibly do something; but also as a way to show how the Courier would be able to get past, and take back control of, the securitrons (perhaps by bringing the Yes Man BU to the Mainframe and helping the original take back control).

 

If you're concern is about making a war zone of the same type as the endgame battle, don't be. I was actually considering the whole battle to take place off screen, with the forces gathered being a diversionary attack, that combined with the riots, would divert the securitrons enough to allow the Courier to sneak in and get to the Lucky 38. If the Yes Man BU idea is used - while escorting him to the mainframe, he can function as a war reporters with updates on how the battle is going. The only lasting result would be one new area in front of the city that would be a memorial to the battle.

 

The Securitron Retexture

 

Maybe it’s just me, but I’m just not liking the flag face - maybe just adding the NCR logo to the shoulders is enough?

 

Propaganda Displays

 

That’s a shame, but you’re probably right – it does seem to be beyond the NCR’s capability – but I actually thought about them being faction neutral – the central area would switch from faction to faction as would the messages displayed on the monitors and heard from the speakers. They could be built and setup during the period the fail-safe controls New Vegas.

 

The Securitrons as mobile-artillery

 

I was able to get almost to the end with the securitron vault intact and upgraded, while remaining on the Independent/NCR quest-line - the player is forced into the Independent quest-line if Yes Man goes to upload himself into the mainframe and the player goes to the Lounge or Penthouse afterwards.

 

Using the securitrons as heavy-hitters would make sense, as long as the securitron vault wasn’t destroyed and/or new ones are being built – otherwise, I think they would be left as robotic peacekeepers since they seem to do that job pretty well.

 

Hoover Dam City

 

I know that the sandcrete is more realistic – but perhaps we should consider using this instead?

[devinpatterson]

@devinpatterson - I don't expect all of the scenario I put forward to be used - truly - but I would like to explain and expand upon certain ideas so that maybe you would reconsider your decision on them – I apologize for any incoherence or rambling in advance:

No worries, not a wordsmith myself

 

First, a summary on the upgraded Securitrons. A Securitron MK II is basically a highly-mobile tank - armed with a mix of short and long-range weapons that could decimate most opponents, with the added bonus of being able to auto-repair themselves when damaged.

 

&

 

Now, my high-level Courier can probably kill one of these guys one-on-one with no problem, with the difficulty ratcheting up the more you add to the equation - that's with advanced armor and weapons, auto-inject stimpacks, and other assorted medical gear. I bring this up not to brag, but to point out how unlikely anything without those enhancements could stand against the Securitrons without numbers on their side

Nah, they're pretty good for bots, but not nearly all of that. They are virtually defenseless up close, easy to skirt and fire. The only thing they really have are the missiles, because the splash effect messes up the players rhythm/flow. Here is a vid of my courier killing two Mark II's without a scratch. Nothing special, just medicine stick (not even hand loads, just standard ammo), 100 guns and the cowboy perk

 

http://youtu.be/RFe-AfGmsaY

 

 

While it appears to be limited to Victor and Yes Man (probably due to them being individualized A.I. programs) - they have the ability to jump from one body to another, with their memories and experience going with them (not unlike the Cylons from the Battlestar Galactica remake).

Just Victor actually, I fudged it a little lore-wise by including Yesman since it related to a plot element. But Yesman, House and anyone else at the mainframe can appear on a Securitron screen. It's not the same as Victor's ability, but it would probably suffice for most situations.

 

Securitrons appear to be commanded from a central mainframe within the Lucky 38, probably using the broadcast antenna to make sure far-away securitrons like Victor can still receive orders.

It's good that you mentioned this, It reminded me to continue my ramblings on the black mountain scenario. Now except for Victor we don't find any securitrons away from NV save their vault. I'd suggest that NV's mainframe wireless network is limited in range. A connection is established by House to the securitron vault (IIRC, he talks to you in there on a monitor?) so that they have a access point to the network there. Maybe the NV's mainframe's wireless network is very limited (or depending on how you look at it, compared to our wi-fi, extremely powerful) and only covers the northern quarter or third of the Mojave. This partially helps to explain why no other securitrons are out of the bounds of NV (save Victor), but mostly because I want to use it as a plot device for black mountain. The cut content mentioned teh NCR wanting black mountain so they could broadcast throughout the Mojave to all the bases, etc. The Legion wants it to Jam the NCR broadcasts. And I propose the Courier (independent mod) needs it for his Securitrons to be able to travel throughout the mojave and stay in touch with the mainframe/yesman

 

Now, Yes Man is an A.I. program (according to the Wiki) that was originally designed to take over the mainframe and follow orders - anyone's orders (as programmed by Emily Ortal for Benny). At the end of the game, Yes Man finds programming in the mainframe that allows himself to change his programming, with the supposed benefits of being more assertive so that the only orders he follows is the Courier’s.

He isn't bound to obey the courier, so that's part of what makes things interesting. Not just Yesman being a vulnerability, but also Yesman developing a Karma similar to the couriers.

 

If you have negative karma, Yesman will follow in your footsteps and the way proposes quests will change. It may be that one day Yesman learns to be as ruthless as a evil courier and decides the courier is a liability.

 

If your karma is good, that too will wear off on Yesman. Not just in teh way he frames quests/options, but he also learns self-sacrifice for good of others. This could result in a lonesome road ed-e moment (self sacrifice), or even possibly Yesman eventually becoming the first AI mayor (after the courier moves on) of a city/state.

 

OK borther let me catch up with you on the other stuff a bit later. Juggling a few different things over here.

[devinpatterson]

Oh also, I made a new weapon, nothing special, but I kind of like it. it's in this thread for the Ambassador.

 

Here is a pic;

 

 

http://i1066.photobucket.com/albums/u404/devinlpatterson/Ambassador2_zps8fe11b4f.jpg