Something I think we haven't noticed about the Stormcloak/Imperial

[DaredevilGR]

Due to the fact that this thread is besieged by an overwhelming number of imb@ciles debating which Period of War of Human History matching the war of Skyrim or why the Stormcloaks are better than Imperials because Ulfrik reminds that person and Tulius is a PU@@@ and other excuses , I decided to come open and share my experience of Bethesda Softworks gaming (Oblivion , Fallout 3 , Fallout New Vegas , Skyrim ) .

 

The evil , cruel , not human but daedra developers have decided it would be very funny if in every quest the player must take a choice , which choice HE DOES NOT ENTIRELY believe in . For example , in oblivion , I did not want to kill the entire brotherhood . P@SS OFF Lachance and Black Hand . In Fallout 3 to be honest I felt more free than before but some quest really annoyed me (can't say know names I have to play the game for ages but for gods sake vault 101 storyline made me want to kill the entire wasteland just for my amusement seeing everyone suffering my own pain) . Now to the orgy of limited decisions , Fallout New Vegas . OK , I don't want to be the emperor of Nevada and Vegas neither do I want to bring that baldie the world to his feet . SO ? Two options remaining . NCR and Mr.House . The first , the living example of why did the nukes exploded in the first place and the second , a mean , selfish man , who counts on machines to control what he thinks he owns . I MEAN EVERYTHING HAS SOMETHING NEGATIVE THAT YOU HATE ? WHAT'S THE POINT OF SHAPING THE FUTURE IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT ?

 

Now to our subject , Skyrim . Trying to be honest again , I have to admit that I joined the stormcloaks at first (Reason? THAT AXE THAT WENT FOR MY HEAD TULIUS !!!) . However , during the second and the third playthrough I went with the Empire . Reasons explained below .

 

1)We all know the real "bad" guys are the Thalmor and obviously the best chance to win them are with a united empire , unless you have 30 enchantments on every piece of weapon and armor that make them deadly to elves . In that case , feel free to crush them alone .

 

2)Why did Ulfrik kill the High King in the first place ?

1rst stupid answer ) Cause he was with the Imperials

Answering the previous answer ) REALLY ? Because I think noble sir Ulfrik that the moot (sorry for potential mispell) decides who the next king is , and If I recall corectly the "FREE" Skyrim OCCUPIES HALF OF THE HOLDS . WHAT THE HELL MAN ?

 

3)A rebel cannot rule an empire and fight a real war . The stormcloaks fought in the dark for too long and their open-battle experience is limited . Seriously where are the stormcloak spies in Aldmeri Dominion ?

 

4)Ban on the worship of Talos . IF I can recall right , Talos was worshiped IN Cyrodil as well and other places of the empire . Don't act like you were the only ones insulted .

 

Thats my reasons , sorry for my aggressive tone . I assure you its nothing about you , I am just starting to hate the developers . They become ... obvious .

 

 

PS>When I started the DB quest I knew 99% a portion of the clan would die ... :/

[imperistan]

k

[Kraeten]

Not going over why this is wrong, again.

 

It really is irrelevant if you think the WGC was necessary or not. It happened. The lore shows the Empire was willing to accepts its terms, except for Hammerfell.

 

No one's suggesting abandoning Cyrodiil. Don't put words in my mouth.

 

If Ulfric wins, Skyrim will not come to Cyrodiil's aid. Whether you want to admit or not, that is going to be a consequence for a Stormcloak victory.

 

And yet is continually and steadily declining. That its managing to hold on doesn't change the fact that its still going to fall apart in time.

 

So will any other nation/kingdom. Just because something is inevitable doesn't make it worthless.

 

Ignoring reality.

 

No more than you're ignoring the consequences of resting the Jagged Crown on a dangerous egomaniac.

 

Fascinating. I guess Skyrim the game doesn't exist now? 0.o

 

No, you're simply not weighing the effects of the civil war victories objectively. If the Stormcloaks win, the Empire is broken. Every province will be on its own. Mankind will be divided, which is exactly how the Dominion wants it. If the Empire wins, all the Dominion has accomplished is forcing the Empire to waste valuable resources and lives. The unity of mankind remains, and that gives the Dominion more cause for worry than some manipulable upstart in the frozen north.

 

Tell that to the dying cancer patient who doesn't want to die. Are you seriously going to tell them "Oh you're just going to die" or are you going to comfort them with the knowledge that there is some chance that they'll survive?

 

I'm not going to give them false hope, if that's what you think. That would be obscene, especially considering the extremely long odds. I would simply encourage the person to take chemo that way he can at least try to gain more time. Which is a worthy enough goal, and reasonably attainable.

Edited July 26, 2012 by Kraeten

[imperistan]

It really is irrelevant if you think the WGC was necessary or not. It happened. The lore shows the Empire was willing to accepts its terms, except for Hammerfell.

 

If you listen to Balgruff, you'll see that it wasn't the individual parts of the Empire all agreeing to the WGC. It was Cyrodiil mandating that everyone like it.

 

If Ulfric wins, Skyrim will not come to Cyrodiil's aid. Whether you want to admit or not, that is going to be a consequence for a Stormcloak victory.

 

Cyrodiil is where the Dominion is going to be and taking the Imperial City will be an important victory for either side, because even if the Empire falls apart the Imperial City would still hold a lot of weight for everybody. It is the literal center of Tamriel after all, and if Skyrim wants to have a land army in Valenwood or any kind of serious port to mount a naval assault it will either have to trek through Hammerfel (an okay, but generally wasteful idea, especially when it comes to Valenwood) or go through Cyrodiil.

 

It would just be a repeat of Whiterun really. A centrally located city thats of vast importance to both sides (as it serves as a launching point for either side to go against the other. And in the IC's unique case, a massive morale boost and drain) that doesn't want much to do with either side but in the end up ends up choosing a side out of necessity for survival. The Dominion has already shown what its going to do if it takes a city like the IC (because it already took it once, and thousands of innocents were massacred, tortured) so inevitably whatever is left of the Empire will have to side with Skyrim in the end, or be left to be completely overrun as both sides battle it out on top of them anyway.

 

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It does when you're suggesting this government be the leader in the next Great War. An entity thats destined to fall apart (likely during the same Great War that its supposed to be leading) isn't the best candidate to lead a war. Its better to have something that, if established, isn't going to fall apart any time soon.

 

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Men like Ulfric are wonderful in war time. Men like him in peace time don't last long regardless.

 

And thats not going in to how you're getting hung up on the man when the man doesn't matter much. His only real relevance is that he set things in motion and that when the time comes he'll be a great general against the Dominion. Beyond that, any man can replace him. I'm quite sure if you replaced Ulfric with Balgruff you'd all be rebels, seeing as you like to put so much weight on the individual man rather than the greater movement.

 

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*pretending that the Empire is the only thing capable of unifying mankind*

 

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A legitimate chance of survival isn't a false hope. And nice one at trying to save face after saying this:

 

ompletely different? The five year survival rate alone is less than five percent. Anyone who doesn't completely fail at math will know he's on the way out. If the survival rate was more like 35% and upwards, then I might entertain the idea of a Pancreatic cancer diagnosis as anything else but a death sentence.

[Kraeten]

If you listen to Balgruff, you'll see that it wasn't the individual parts of the Empire all agreeing to the WGC. It was Cyrodiil mandating that everyone like it.

 

And the provinces obeyed instead of flipping Cyrodiil the one finger salute. Do you have anything else irrelevant to add?

 

so inevitably whatever is left of the Empire will have to side with Skyrim in the end, or be left to be completely overrun as both sides battle it out on top of them anyway.

 

If Ulfric was ever going to fight for Cyrodiil, he wouldn't have killed one of the Legion's best generals. He isn't going to help them. His entire platform rested on demonizing the Empire.

 

It does when you're suggesting this government be the leader in the next Great War.

 

Yes, how counter intuitive that we should support a government that embraces all of mankind instead of of pinning all of our hopes on Ulfric.

 

Men like Ulfric are wonderful in war time.

 

Just one problem, the second great war hasn't started yet, and if it does start as a result of his victory then it will be a weakened and divided mankind against the Dominion. Brilliant work there.

 

I'm quite sure if you replaced Ulfric with Balgruff you'd all be rebels, seeing as you like to put so much weight on the individual man rather than the greater movement.

 

When the greater movement owes its momentum almost entirely to Ulfric, of course we put so much weight on him.

 

*pretending that the Empire is the only thing capable of unifying mankind*

 

Please keep on ignoring the fact you're supporting a man bent on independence at a time when unity is paramount. It does wonders for showing your tunnel vision.

 

And nice one at trying to save face after saying this

 

I never changed my position. It's still a death sentence. My point, was you still have a choice in how you face it. Which is a choice you admitted existed later after initially claiming it wasn't a choice. I'm not the one backtracking or trying to save face. :rolleyes:

 

has no real choice except the manner in which he dies.

Edited July 27, 2012 by Kraeten

[imperistan]

And the provinces obeyed instead of flipping Cyrodiil the one finger salute. Do you have anything else irrelevant to add?

 

Don't be dense.

 

EDIT by LHammonds: Warning...this is called a personal attack. If you continue such attacks, you might find your account banned.

 

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Yeah that only holds weight so long as parts of the Empire continue to fight against Ulfric.

 

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More strawmen and mouth-stuffing I see.

 

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Clearly because everyone in Tamriel is just a mindless savage and the Empire is the shining light of civilization that keeps them all from raping and pillaging each other back to the era of loin cloths and clubs. Only Cyrodiil ever developed the idea of alliance and cooperation. Peace was invented by Tiber Septim. Its all, so, obvious! :wacko:

 

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And doing so gives you a convenient excuse to ignore the greater legitimacy of the rebellion beyond what Ulfric is doing. This could be Balgruff's Rebellion or the Riverwood Rebellion or whatever's or whoever's rebellion, the fact of the matter is is that no matter what drives the rebellion, it still has greater implications and greater purposes beyond the motivations and merits of one man whose name was given to the rebellion. If you refuse to consider what the rebellion is about beyond the man, then you can denounce it with any stupid reason. Doing that, you can denounce the entire rebellion on the basis of "HURR I DON"T LIKE ULFRIC HE"S UGLY!!". Say what you want about that, but thats what that logic leads to. Denouncement based on ridiculous, and virtually always completely irrelevant premises.

 

As I've said before, anyone who supports the rebellion because of Ulfric doesn't know what they're fighting for. But even despite that, that doesn't change the fact that what they are fighting for is massively important. The soldier doesn't need to know he's going to end the war with his sword stroke, he only needs to know what he needs to to do his duty.

 

Would it be more ideal if everyone on board knew exactly what they were on board with? Of course, but there's little sense in wasting time in doing so, particularly when this isn't a people's war. Its a war between several men and women who throw their thousands of subjects at each other in lieu of meeting on the battlefield themselves.

 

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again, *pretending that the Empire is the only thing that can unify mankind*

 

Honestly, I've already elaborated on this. Not doing it again.

 

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facepalm Now you're trying to steal my own words. :dry:

[Kraeten]

 

Don't be dense.

I should be saying that to you right now. Mandate or not, there was nothing to stop the other provinces from following Hammerfell's example at the conclusion of the Great War.

 

Yeah that only holds weight so long as parts of the Empire continue to fight against Ulfric.

Wrong.

 

More strawmen and mouth-stuffing I see.

No, that would be your words below. Really, you're making this too easy.

 

Clearly because everyone in Tamriel is just a mindless savage and the Empire is the shining light of civilization that keeps them all from raping and pillaging each other back to the era of loin cloths and clubs. Only Cyrodiil ever developed the idea of alliance and cooperation. Peace was invented by Tiber Septim. Its all, so, obvious! :wacko:

 

 

And doing so gives you a convenient excuse to ignore the greater legitimacy of the rebellion beyond what Ulfric is doing.

Assuming the pursuit of independence is always a legitimate goal regardless of the timing and circumstances surrounding it.

 

again, *pretending that the Empire is the only thing that can unify mankind*

 

And again, you're presuming someone is going to pick up the slack and make a new alliance of mankind. This isn't a certainty. When the fate of mankind is in the balance, a sensible person doesn't take unnecessary risks.

 

facepalm Now you're trying to steal my own words. :dry:

 

Is it stealing to point out hypocrisy? Good heavens, I must be quite the experienced thief then. :confused:

Edited July 27, 2012 by Kraeten

[DaedalusMachina]

Black Marsh, Morrowind, and High Rock are not known for their great military strength. Valenwood was obliterated, Elsweyr became willing allies, and Cyrodiil was far, far too weak to do anything against the overwhelming Thalmor. Hammerfell's example? Hammerfell could only hold on to their province with help from the Nords and Imperials at Red Ring weakening Thalmor forces on Hammerfell's front.

 

With Skyrim being plunged into the chaos of civil war, and Cyrodiil dominated by Thalmor, and Hammerfell barely strong enough to hold their own, how are all the other provinces going to simply "Follow Hammerfell's example"?

 

Not to mention, the division between Hammerfell and Cyrodiil is beneficial to none but the Thalmor.

 

 

Also, sidenote - The Empire did not engineer the Markarth Incident. Every single account of what happens shows that the Thalmor interfered with the lifting the ban on Talos worship, and used (read: threatened) the Empire to intervene.

Edited July 27, 2012 by DaedalusMachina

[BrettM]

And the provinces obeyed instead of flipping Cyrodiil the one finger salute.

Obeyed?

 

Cyrodiil -- Of course they obeyed. According to The Great War, the people there who demanded the war were now ready for peace at any price.

 

Hammerfell -- Did they not flip Cyrodiil the one-finger salute? How do you characterize their response as obedience?

 

High Rock -- We actually have no idea what's going on there. However, they don't really seem to have a dog in that fight. They didn't lose any territory and I don't think they're a hotbed of Talos worship. The WGC requires no changes in their internal behavior. Is it meaningful to speak of their obedience to a treaty that doesn't seem to have any effect on them?

 

Skyrim -- Even those who side with the Empire aren't obeying the WGC. They shrugged their shoulders and figured they could just ignore it, as Balgruuf did, assuming it was not actually going to be enforced on them as long as they stayed under the radar. So they flipped the one-finger salute whenever the Empire wasn't looking instead of doing so openly. After the Markarth Incident this was no longer possible, and half the jarls did openly flip the one-finger salute at that point. How is this "obedience"?

 

So, out of four provinces, we have exactly ONE -- Cyrodiil -- that can be fairly characterized as obedient.

[Kraeten]

 

Obeyed?

 

Cyrodiil -- Of course they obeyed. According to The Great War, the people there who demanded the war were now ready for peace at any price.

 

Hammerfell -- Did they not flip Cyrodiil the one-finger salute? How do you characterize their response as obedience?

 

High Rock -- We actually have no idea what's going on there. However, they don't really seem to have a dog in that fight. They didn't lose any territory and I don't think they're a hotbed of Talos worship. The WGC requires no changes in their internal behavior. Is it meaningful to speak of their obedience to a treaty that doesn't seem to have any effect on them?

 

Skyrim -- Even those who side with the Empire aren't obeying the WGC. They shrugged their shoulders and figured they could just ignore it, as Balgruuf did, assuming it was not actually going to be enforced on them as long as they stayed under the radar. So they flipped the one-finger salute whenever the Empire wasn't looking instead of doing so openly. After the Markarth Incident this was no longer possible, and half the jarls did openly flip the one-finger salute at that point. How is this "obedience"?

 

So, out of four provinces, we have exactly ONE -- Cyrodiil -- that can be fairly characterized as obedient.

 

 

Hammerfell doesn't need to be brought up. Everyone is aware of its independence, which is why I didn't bother mentioning that province specifically. As for High Rock, they haven't tried to secede therefore they're obedient. Skyrim too was obedient for quite some time UNTIL Ulfric stirred up a hornet's nest with his stupid demands during the Markarth Incident. My point still stands.

Edited July 27, 2012 by Kraeten